Omnipotence: Possible?

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 16, 2009, 08:36:50 AM

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on January 16, 2009, 08:22:20 AM

Quote from: John Jackson on January 15, 2009, 06:36:20 PM

I guess this was my (weak) attempt to disprove the proposition 'If G-d is omnipotent, then G-d is omniscient'.

And for anyone who watched School House Rock as a kid, knowledge is power. Therefore omniscience is omnipotence!

Knowledge of a thing is not power over that same thing or the free will we all supposedly have is a myth.

God may know what you plan to do tomorrow, but free will allows you to do it, even if he would rather you didn't.

The point is, if G-d know what you will do, do you really have free will? I mean, can you do the opposite of what They know you will do?

Knowledge of a thing is not power over that same thing or the free will we all supposedly have is a myth.

God may know what you plan to do tomorrow, but free will allows you to do it, even if he would rather you didn't.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 16, 2009, 08:36:50 AM

Knowledge of a thing is not power over that same thing or the free will we all supposedly have is a myth.

God may know what you plan to do tomorrow, but free will allows you to do it, even if he would rather you didn't.

I was kidding when I said knowledge = power. It was meant to be a humorous stab at SHR.

But the discussion seems to have shifted into the freewill vs divine preordination dilemma again anyways.

You're confusing knowledge with power.

God can know that tomorrow I am going to blow up the Vatican.  As long as he allows me to make that decision and carry it out without trying to stop me, I have free will.

My father knew that Logan and I were hiding a wolf in the back barn for a week, but he didn't say anything until we came to him for help.

God does the same thing.  He knows what you are going to do, but he doesn't interfere until you ask him to.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 16, 2009, 10:05:34 AM

You're confusing knowledge with power.

No, I am not.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 16, 2009, 10:05:34 AM

God can know that tomorrow I am going to blow up the Vatican.  As long as he allows me to make that decision and carry it out without trying to stop me, I have free will.

When did they find out that you will do that? Are they able to know only things that will happen up to a certain time in the future? It seems your delusion of free will is only because you do not know what will happen in distant or near future, not G-d.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 16, 2009, 10:05:34 AM

My father knew that Logan and I were hiding a wolf in the back barn for a week, but he didn't say anything until we came to him for help.

God does the same thing.  He knows what you are going to do, but he doesn't interfere until you ask him to.

Irrelevant.

It simply means god is better at predicting the future than people are.

If God knows that you are going to do something, does it matter if he knew it 1 minute before or a billion years ago?

Quote from: Edtharan on January 15, 2009, 05:35:52 PM

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 15, 2009, 12:01:33 PM

Quote from: goldstein on January 15, 2009, 11:56:52 AM

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 09:34:24 AM

Quote from: Moonlit on January 15, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice?

If your parents can see you're going to cause harm to yourself, or someone else, don't they have a duty to intervene and protect the person at risk?

Doesn't God have a duty to protect his "flock"?

What is the better teacher, experience or being told?  Being told that something is hot is not nearly as effective as the burned finger.

God if he exists, allows us to learn from experience.

No he damns us to an eternity in Hell if we don't make the right choice. We might learn form experience, but that is scant comfort if we don't get to use it.

Purgatory... Then Hell if you warrant it.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 16, 2009, 10:32:58 AM

If God knows that you are going to do something, does it matter if he knew it 1 minute before or a billion years ago?

And how do we know that God knows all these things?

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 15, 2009, 05:38:04 PM

Quote from: Edtharan on January 15, 2009, 05:35:52 PM

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 15, 2009, 12:01:33 PM

Quote from: goldstein on January 15, 2009, 11:56:52 AM

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 09:34:24 AM

Quote from: Moonlit on January 15, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice?

If your parents can see you're going to cause harm to yourself, or someone else, don't they have a duty to intervene and protect the person at risk?

Doesn't God have a duty to protect his "flock"?

What is the better teacher, experience or being told?  Being told that something is hot is not nearly as effective as the burned finger.

God if he exists, allows us to learn from experience.

No he damns us to an eternity in Hell if we don't make the right choice. We might learn form experience, but that is scant comfort if we don't get to use it.

Purgatory... Then Hell if you warrant it.

Then you should be an Atheist...

...Or at least an Agnostic

As an Atheist you do not actually violate any of the 10 commandments. Specifically the one that says not to worship other Gods (actually, if God is the only God, then why have this at all, why not just say that as the only God, if you worship another God you are worshipping a false God, and then state not to worship false Gods).

If you don't worship the right God, then that is more offensive than worshipping no Gods. As an Atheist you choose not to worship any Gods, if you are wrong, then by your reasoning, you will get a second chance as you haven't actually broken any of the commandments. But if you "pick" a religion, then you have chosen to worship that God, and if you are wrong then it will be worse for you as you will have broken one of the commandments (if you are right then good for you, but with all the religions, and all the different versions of them, which one is the one true religion).

Which do you think would be better. You appear before God and say, well I worshipped this other Guy as I don't think you were good enough.

Or...

Well as there was so many different ones, I couldn't be sure which one was right. If any.

Although free will may be simply free will regardless, if a God tells us we can make any choice we want, but will yield a consequence (whether that bad or good), yet at the same time, he tells us through scripture that making the wrong choice will damn us to an eternity in a fiery abyss of gnashing teeth, is it really a fair privledge?

Imagine your parents tell you that you can either go to a special event or not, and if you choose not to, then you will be grounded for the rest of eternity (if eternity exists).  Is that truly free will?  Or is it some twisted spin-off of it, that the human race regards as free will?

Omnipotence: Possible?

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Quote from: Axesome on January 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Ah, don't you love double negatives?

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Axesome on January 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Ah, don't you love double negatives?

kingman clearly doesn't know what a double negative is. But in answer to the question at the end, refusing to do something does not mean you are limiting your ability. You are simply refusing to use it.

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:25:23 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Axesome on January 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Ah, don't you love double negatives?

kingman clearly doesn't know what a double negative is. But in answer to the question at the end, refusing to do something does not mean you are limiting your ability. You are simply refusing to use it.

I meant that no matter what, in those scenarios you can't win. What would you call it?

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:27:57 PM

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:25:23 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Axesome on January 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Ah, don't you love double negatives?

kingman clearly doesn't know what a double negative is. But in answer to the question at the end, refusing to do something does not mean you are limiting your ability. You are simply refusing to use it.

I meant that no matter what, in those scenarios you can't win. What would you call it?

Catch-22. A double negative is two negatives forming a positive. Though in some languages a double negative represents a very strong negative. Odd how language goes.

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:30:18 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:27:57 PM

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:25:23 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Axesome on January 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Ah, don't you love double negatives?

kingman clearly doesn't know what a double negative is. But in answer to the question at the end, refusing to do something does not mean you are limiting your ability. You are simply refusing to use it.

I meant that no matter what, in those scenarios you can't win. What would you call it?

Catch-22. A double negative is two negatives forming a positive. Though in some languages a double negative represents a very strong negative. Odd how language goes.

I thought a double negative was a statement that contradicts itself.

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:31:49 PM

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:30:18 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:27:57 PM

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:25:23 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Axesome on January 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Ah, don't you love double negatives?

kingman clearly doesn't know what a double negative is. But in answer to the question at the end, refusing to do something does not mean you are limiting your ability. You are simply refusing to use it.

I meant that no matter what, in those scenarios you can't win. What would you call it?

Catch-22. A double negative is two negatives forming a positive. Though in some languages a double negative represents a very strong negative. Odd how language goes.

I thought a double negative was a statement that contradicts itself.

No. A catch-22 is a situation where there is really no choice.

Like, You can only be removed from combat if you're crazy, but if you want to leave combat, you obviously aren't crazy. So there is no way out.

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:33:57 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:31:49 PM

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:30:18 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:27:57 PM

Quote from: Raist on February 07, 2009, 08:25:23 PM

Quote from: KingMan on February 07, 2009, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Axesome on January 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

Ah, don't you love double negatives?

kingman clearly doesn't know what a double negative is. But in answer to the question at the end, refusing to do something does not mean you are limiting your ability. You are simply refusing to use it.

I meant that no matter what, in those scenarios you can't win. What would you call it?

Catch-22. A double negative is two negatives forming a positive. Though in some languages a double negative represents a very strong negative. Odd how language goes.

I thought a double negative was a statement that contradicts itself.

No. A catch-22 is a situation where there is really no choice.

Like, You can only be removed from combat if you're crazy, but if you want to leave combat, you obviously aren't crazy. So there is no way out.

OOOOHHHHHHHH. Like in the salem witch trials. If you float on water then your burned alive and if you sink you drown.

Woo Kingman learnt something!

Woo Kingman learnt something!

Woo Kingman learnt something!

Whats great is that the order you have your sigs there Kingman, it makes it look like you learnt that you're a dick.

I am like that one woman that taught helen keller to sign. Everyone said it couldn't be done, but she taught that blind penguin to sign. She also rearranged the furniture to punish her. That and dildo torture.