Omnipotence: Possible?

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

I believe the future being decided does not limit free will. He simply knows which choices we would make. Before you call unfair on that one, he does not force you to make the decision, he just knows which one you will make and bases accordingly.

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

The basic flaw with that argument, Raist, is that if that's true, christians can call on predetermined destiny and claim that they don't have to take any responsibility for their actions. Which I know most christians wouldn't do, but it's still possible.

The basic flaw with that argument, Raist, is that if that's true, christians can call on predetermined destiny and claim that they don't have to take any responsibility for their actions. Which I know most christians wouldn't do, but it's still possible.

No, thats a flaw with predeterminism e.g. Calvinism. What Raist said was that the future isn't predetermined by God, its preknown but not predetermined.

People have been asking for a while, can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? Or, in Homer Simpson's version of the question, "Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself cannot eat it?"
Perhaps the best example is: If God has control and power over everything in the universe, how can He grant free will to lesser being, thereby limiting His own power?

He isn't limiting his power.  In the case of free will, he chooses not to use it.  That is not the same as not having it.

Omnipotence is the ability to do anything.  Nothing about being Omnipotent says you have to control every bird's flight, every fish's mating or every human action, merely that if you want to, and exert the effort, you could.

The basic flaw with that argument, Raist, is that if that's true, christians can call on predetermined destiny and claim that they don't have to take any responsibility for their actions. Which I know most christians wouldn't do, but it's still possible.

That is flawed. No matter how well known your actions are by god, they are still what you chose to do. He still will punish you for them.

Just because they are predetermined, doesn't mean they aren't predetermined by the way you are. If it is the way you are that predetermines them, then it is your choice.

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice? My parents on so many occasions have told me exactly what will happen, I ignore them, and it happens. They still gave me a choice to do it. Perhaps that is the way it is with god, he can see what will happen, but he allows us to do it anyways because it is our choice. Perhaps what he does in the beginning doesn't predetermine everything, with quantum states being unknown until they are observed, perhaps that is the way randomness is allowed into the process. He sets it up, and knows what we will ultimately do, but it really is up to us.

Quote from: Moonlit on January 15, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice?

If your parents can see you're going to cause harm to yourself, or someone else, don't they have a duty to intervene and protect the person at risk?

Doesn't God have a duty to protect his "flock"?

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 09:34:24 AM

Quote from: Moonlit on January 15, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice?

If your parents can see you're going to cause harm to yourself, or someone else, don't they have a duty to intervene and protect the person at risk?

Doesn't God have a duty to protect his "flock"?

What is the better teacher, experience or being told?  Being told that something is hot is not nearly as effective as the burned finger.

God if he exists, allows us to learn from experience.

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 09:34:24 AM

Quote from: Moonlit on January 15, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice?

If your parents can see you're going to cause harm to yourself, or someone else, don't they have a duty to intervene and protect the person at risk?

Doesn't God have a duty to protect his "flock"?

So your parents were the controlling type I take it.

Quote from: goldstein on January 15, 2009, 11:56:52 AM

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 09:34:24 AM

Quote from: Moonlit on January 15, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice?

If your parents can see you're going to cause harm to yourself, or someone else, don't they have a duty to intervene and protect the person at risk?

Doesn't God have a duty to protect his "flock"?

What is the better teacher, experience or being told?  Being told that something is hot is not nearly as effective as the burned finger.

God if he exists, allows us to learn from experience.

No he damns us to an eternity in Hell if we don't make the right choice. We might learn form experience, but that is scant comfort if we don't get to use it.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on January 15, 2009, 12:01:33 PM

Quote from: goldstein on January 15, 2009, 11:56:52 AM

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 09:34:24 AM

Quote from: Moonlit on January 15, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

But the problem is he is controlling our fate simply by letting us choose what he knows we will choose.  He knows what will happen to us in the end and by not preventing it he has controlled our lives.  (That is if he did exist.)

If your parents give you a decision and already know what you'll choose, did they not give you a choice?

If your parents can see you're going to cause harm to yourself, or someone else, don't they have a duty to intervene and protect the person at risk?

Doesn't God have a duty to protect his "flock"?

What is the better teacher, experience or being told?  Being told that something is hot is not nearly as effective as the burned finger.

God if he exists, allows us to learn from experience.

No he damns us to an eternity in Hell if we don't make the right choice. We might learn form experience, but that is scant comfort if we don't get to use it.

Purgatory... Then Hell if you warrant it.

No two people have the same chemical reactions in the brain, so how do we have a choice in anything?

I believe the future being decided does not limit free will. He simply knows which choices we would make. Before you call unfair on that one, he does not force you to make the decision, he just knows which one you will make and bases accordingly.

You're mixing omniscience and omnipotence.

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 07:37:17 AM

I believe the future being decided does not limit free will. He simply knows which choices we would make. Before you call unfair on that one, he does not force you to make the decision, he just knows which one you will make and bases accordingly.

You're mixing omniscience and omnipotence.

Being all powerful does not mean you control everything.

@ woman lady if we all had the same brain, then there would be no choice.

You're mixing omniscience and omnipotence.

Damn it! You beat me to it.
Now I have to take the opposing side... 

Omnipotent is having all abilities and omniscience is the ability to know everything. Therefore, omniscience is a derivation of absolute power. Therefore, since he didn't mention omniscience, he could just be examining a portion or implication of omnipotence. [/pointless]

Does omnipotence mean you can make a false statement be true at the same time?

Does omnipotence mean you can make a false statement be true at the same time?

Omniscience means that you know that statements are not necessarily true or false.

Quote from: John Jackson on January 15, 2009, 06:14:45 PM

Does omnipotence mean you can make a false statement be true at the same time?

Omniscience means that you know that statements are not necessarily true or false.

Thank you for quoting me and giving a completely random sentence in return.

Quote from: Raist on January 15, 2009, 06:16:26 PM

Quote from: John Jackson on January 15, 2009, 06:14:45 PM

Does omnipotence mean you can make a false statement be true at the same time?

Omniscience means that you know that statements are not necessarily true or false.

Thank you for quoting me and giving a completely random sentence in return.

Thank you for asking a meaningless question based on linguistics.

This statement is false.

There you go. A statement that is both true and false. Does not take omnipotence.

You are right. I misused the term 'statement'. I should have said 'proposition'. But it boils down to linguistics again. Maybe a more general example would be:

Does omnipotence mean you can make A be non-A, while non-A not becoming A?

Yes. That would be within the term all powerful. Perhaps god is not all powerful in the sense we use the word, but there is no law he must fit the current definition for the word omnipotent.

So, then, if They have this power, how can they know whether 'non-A' is 'A' or 'non-A'?

So, then, if They have this power, how can they know whether 'non-A' is 'A' or 'non-A'?

Do not ask me, I am not omnipotent or omniscient.

I guess this was my (weak) attempt to disprove the proposition 'If G-d is omnipotent, then G-d is omniscient'.

@ woman lady if we all had the same brain, then there would be no choice.

Either way, we're cogs in a machine.

I guess this was my (weak) attempt to disprove the proposition 'If G-d is omnipotent, then G-d is omniscient'.

And for anyone who watched School House Rock as a kid, knowledge is power. Therefore omniscience is omnipotence!

Quote from: John Jackson on January 15, 2009, 06:36:20 PM

I guess this was my (weak) attempt to disprove the proposition 'If G-d is omnipotent, then G-d is omniscient'.

And for anyone who watched School House Rock as a kid, knowledge is power. Therefore omniscience is omnipotence!

Knowledge of a thing is not power over that same thing or the free will we all supposedly have is a myth.

God may know what you plan to do tomorrow, but free will allows you to do it, even if he would rather you didn't.

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on January 16, 2009, 08:22:20 AM

Quote from: John Jackson on January 15, 2009, 06:36:20 PM

I guess this was my (weak) attempt to disprove the proposition 'If G-d is omnipotent, then G-d is omniscient'.

And for anyone who watched School House Rock as a kid, knowledge is power. Therefore omniscience is omnipotence!

Knowledge of a thing is not power over that same thing or the free will we all supposedly have is a myth.

God may know what you plan to do tomorrow, but free will allows you to do it, even if he would rather you didn't.

The point is, if G-d know what you will do, do you really have free will? I mean, can you do the opposite of what They know you will do?