Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase

Gun Control

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #150 on: January 06, 2009, 11:16:01 AM »
People don't commit crimes because they're willing to go to prison.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #151 on: January 06, 2009, 11:21:52 AM »
If you aren't going to allow people to be rehabilitated, why not just shoot them on sight?

since when does prison rehabilitate felons.  It's basically criminal school in there.  Come to jail and learn to be a better more effective and smarter criminal so you don't get caught next time.

I personally don't care what you do with them, but if they are a rapist, killer, etc.  I don't want them back on the street.

Just because the prisons in your country are shit doesn't mean that prisons in other countries don't rehabilitate felons.

From Bureau of Justice studies:
Quote
Fifty-six percent of the violent felons convicted in the 75 most populous counties from 1990 through 2002 had a prior conviction, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Of the offenders with prior felony records, the study found that at the time of the new crime 18 percent were on probation, 12 percent on release pending disposition of a prior case and 7 percent on parole.

The bureau also reported 38 percent had a prior felony conviction and 15 percent had been previously convicted for a violent felony.

In another finding, the bureau said youths under age 21 commit 30 percent of all homicides.

Some additional studies from the Bureau of Justice Statistics:

Quote
70% percent of the murders are committed by criminals who have prior felonies.  -- Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Update, October 1991, p. 4.  This number does not include criminals who have plea-bargained their felonies down to lesser charges.

Sixty-five percent of murder victims themselves have prior felonies.

Prisons do not have a good track record for rehabilitation, and it's not just in the U.S.

My point here is this IS the problem, not guns.  It's criminals being allowed to go back onto the streets.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #152 on: January 06, 2009, 11:32:24 AM »
Countries that have prison systems which focus more on rehabilitation than punishment have lower recidivism rates.
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Ravenwood240

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #153 on: January 06, 2009, 11:37:21 AM »
If you aren't going to allow people to be rehabilitated, why not just shoot them on sight?

What rehabilitation? The US prison system is not working.

Look at this:  http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/reentry/reentry.htm

Please note that on the second chart, it shows that every class of criminal that serves a single year in jail has at least a 60% chance of going back within three years.

Please note also that the violent and drug related offenders go up to a nearly 80% chance.

That is the result of a once a decade study.  If you calculate the annual rate, you'll find that the chances of going back to jail for prison inmates involved in drugs or violence approach and sometimes exceed 95%.

It drops slightly if you include jail inmates, but it's still high enough that any idiot can see that the American prison system is not working.

But since all of those people have rights, in some states and places, more rights than the people they committed the crimes on, they continue to commit those crimes.

I own guns, for hunting and because father was a Marine that trained all of his children in using them.  I don't have my CD with the gun control data on it with me, but I'll bring it tomorrow.  Guns are not the problem.

No gun, acting on its own has ever killed anyone, by accident or on purpose.  Some person was the reason for that death and banning guns doesn't change that.  Training and required responsibility are the only things that will make the guns safe.

If you own a gun, you are responsible for every action of that gun.  If you allow it to be stolen, then you can be ed with every crime committed with it.  If a child gets a hold of it and uses it to shoot another child, you are charged with murder.  Laws like that would make a serious dent in accidents with guns.

And before you say "Well, you can't always watch a gun" or something equally silly, I say bullshit.

Granddad's ranch has had guns on it for 118 years now, since it first became the family's ranch.  In all that time, according to the family records, there have been just two accidents with firearms.  The first was the result of too much powder in a black powder weapon and the second was also a mechanical failure.

No child ever shot another child, no weapon was ever stolen, no one has ever been shot by accident or otherwise.

(Well, Granddad might have peppered a few trespassers with rock salt over the years, but that's a bit different, there wasn't anything accidental about that.)

Banning guns doesn't work, it never has.  Once the guns are there, banning them is about as useful as Prohibition.

Look at the cities that have the highest violent crime rates and then figure out which cities have the strictest gun control laws.

Look world wide.... Which country has the lowest violent crime rate?  Which country has a trained and armed population?
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2009, 11:39:27 AM »
The US prison system is really fucked up, they need to sort it out.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2009, 11:48:49 AM »
The US prison system is really fucked up, they need to sort it out.

I do agree with you, if there was a way to more effectively rehabilitate criminals into society I would be all for it.  As of right now though, it's just not happening and I don't think we should just be letting them back on the streets anyway.

I may be wrong here, but your from Finland right?  I found a study on recidivism that you may be interested in here:
http://www.rikosseuraamus.fi/25234.htm

Quote
Results
1. Follow-up time: Over a half of all the released returned to prison
2. Year of release: The share of recidivists is increasing in Finland
3. Times in prison: The majority of those for the first time in prison did not return to prison
4. Age: 80-90 percent of the young offenders returned to prison at least once
5. Sex: Men re-offend more often than women
6. Type of crime: Persons sentenced for homicides and sexual offences re-offend more rarely than others
7. Fictitious recidivism: One in four of those returned to prison did not commit a new crime after release
8. Process: Under 10 out of 100 of the first-timers ended up in prison vortex
9. Vortex: The persons in prison vortex are the most socially excluded part of the Finnish adult population.

Though Finland is better than the U.S., which has a rate of about 60% recidivists, Finland's is climbing year by year in this sample.

In any case, I will modify my recent statement on getting crime down.  I do not believe that taking away guns from law abiding citizens has a positive effect on violent crime or the murder rate.  I do believe that either removing criminals off of the street for good, or effectively rehabilitating them into society will have a much more positive effect on crime in the long run than gun control.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2009, 11:54:41 AM »
The US prison system is really fucked up, they need to sort it out.

I do agree with you, if there was a way to more effectively rehabilitate criminals into society I would be all for it.  As of right now though, it's just not happening and I don't think we should just be letting them back on the streets anyway.

I may be wrong here, but your from Finland right?  I found a study on recidivism that you may be interested in here:
http://www.rikosseuraamus.fi/25234.htm

Quote
Results
1. Follow-up time: Over a half of all the released returned to prison
2. Year of release: The share of recidivists is increasing in Finland
3. Times in prison: The majority of those for the first time in prison did not return to prison
4. Age: 80-90 percent of the young offenders returned to prison at least once
5. Sex: Men re-offend more often than women
6. Type of crime: Persons sentenced for homicides and sexual offences re-offend more rarely than others
7. Fictitious recidivism: One in four of those returned to prison did not commit a new crime after release
8. Process: Under 10 out of 100 of the first-timers ended up in prison vortex
9. Vortex: The persons in prison vortex are the most socially excluded part of the Finnish adult population.

Though Finland is better than the U.S., which has a rate of about 60% recidivists, Finland's is climbing year by year in this sample.

In any case, I will modify my recent statement on getting crime down.  I do not believe that taking away guns from law abiding citizens has a positive effect on violent crime or the murder rate.  I do believe that either removing criminals off of the street for good, or effectively rehabilitating them into society will have a much more positive effect on crime in the long run than gun control.

I know about that study, was one of the ones I wrote about in my essay on recidivism rates, done a lot of research on this.

And I agree with you about the gun control thing. In fact, this thread made me change my mind about gun control, I used to be, vaguely, in favour of it.
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Ravenwood240

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #157 on: January 06, 2009, 11:54:59 AM »
Countries that have prison systems which focus more on rehabilitation than punishment have lower recidivism rates.

Actually, if you want to see something interesting, look at this:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/wfcj.htm

Crime stats from 45 countries.

As far as I can tell, the countries with the best recidivism rates are the ones that depend more on punishment than rehabilitation.

Iran and some of the other Middle Eastern countries that use the Headman's Axe more than a jail have some very low numbers.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #158 on: January 06, 2009, 12:19:12 PM »
I know about that study, was one of the ones I wrote about in my essay on recidivism rates, done a lot of research on this.

And I agree with you about the gun control thing. In fact, this thread made me change my mind about gun control, I used to be, vaguely, in favour of it.

Glad to hear you've changed your mind  :).   I hope others will see the same way as you.  Just out of curiosity, what are Finland's laws on gun ownership?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2009, 12:21:41 PM »
As long as people like Bob28 are kept away from them, or executed, I'm fine with guns too.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2009, 12:22:07 PM »
Iran and some of the other Middle Eastern countries that use the Headman's Axe more than a jail have some very low numbers.

We all know that a dictatorship is the most effective form of government.  Especially on crime.

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2009, 12:26:26 PM »
It just lacks freedoms and such, so people don't like them.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2009, 12:27:54 PM »
Who needs freedoms when you're safe?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #163 on: January 06, 2009, 12:28:55 PM »
Who needs freedoms when you're safe?

I don't like being safe. I'm still waiting for that fucking post apocalyptic future thing that should have happened 8 or so years ago.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #164 on: January 06, 2009, 12:33:42 PM »
Who needs freedoms when you're safe?

So you would rather be a slave?  I would never willingly give up any freedom in exchange for security.

I don't like being safe. I'm still waiting for that fucking post apocalyptic future thing that should have happened 8 or so years ago.

LOL!  I want to sig that!  Don't worry, when the ZOMBIES come, Americans will be ready with our guns.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 12:35:46 PM by ragnarr »

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #165 on: January 06, 2009, 12:48:06 PM »
I was being sarcastic. And there is not going to be a zombie apocalypse. It'll be nuclear or just the collapse of society into warring clans.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Ravenwood240

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #166 on: January 06, 2009, 12:56:28 PM »
I was being sarcastic. And there is not going to be a zombie apocalypse. It'll be nuclear or just the collapse of society into warring clans.

Or a new type of plague.  Nature has her own ways to control over population.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #167 on: January 06, 2009, 12:56:44 PM »
I was being sarcastic. And there is not going to be a zombie apocalypse. It'll be nuclear or just the collapse of society into warring clans.

You just keep thinking that until the zombies are coming through your window in hoards.  Then you will say to yourself, "I should have listened to Ragnarr".  ;)

Sorry, I didn't catch the sarcasm tag on your previous post.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #168 on: January 06, 2009, 01:02:21 PM »
If Dead Rising has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that two guitars, a chair and a fork are very useful weapons for fending off zombies. This deserves a thread to stop this one getting derailed any more.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #169 on: January 06, 2009, 01:13:57 PM »
If Dead Rising has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that two guitars, a chair and a fork are very useful weapons for fending off zombies. This deserves a thread to stop this one getting derailed any more.

No it doesn't. If you bothered to play any serious zombie games, you need a well armed fortress and a chainsaw.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #170 on: January 06, 2009, 01:20:42 PM »
If Dead Rising has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that two guitars, a chair and a fork are very useful weapons for fending off zombies. This deserves a thread to stop this one getting derailed any more.

I 100% agree, it was just me trolling a little bit.  Lets create a new thread for defense against the zombie horde in complete nonsense.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #171 on: January 06, 2009, 01:24:40 PM »
If Dead Rising has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that two guitars, a chair and a fork are very useful weapons for fending off zombies. This deserves a thread to stop this one getting derailed any more.

No it doesn't. If you bothered to play any serious zombie games, you need a well armed fortress and a chainsaw.

You don't know how heavy my guitars are.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #172 on: January 06, 2009, 01:26:52 PM »
New Zombie defense thread here:  http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=25919.0


Edit:  Never mind it appears that GD already has one in the Everything Else forum.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 01:42:04 PM by ragnarr »

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #173 on: January 06, 2009, 01:43:49 PM »
I know about that study, was one of the ones I wrote about in my essay on recidivism rates, done a lot of research on this.

And I agree with you about the gun control thing. In fact, this thread made me change my mind about gun control, I used to be, vaguely, in favour of it.

Glad to hear you've changed your mind  :).   I hope others will see the same way as you.  Just out of curiosity, what are Finland's laws on gun ownership?

Not exactly sure. You can own guns but can't carry loaded ones around I think, they're only really to be owned for collections, shooting ranges and hunting I think. And you have to be at least 15 to buy one.
But they want to change the laws and make them tighter since those pesky school shootings here.
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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #174 on: January 06, 2009, 01:47:17 PM »
I know about that study, was one of the ones I wrote about in my essay on recidivism rates, done a lot of research on this.

And I agree with you about the gun control thing. In fact, this thread made me change my mind about gun control, I used to be, vaguely, in favour of it.

Glad to hear you've changed your mind  :).   I hope others will see the same way as you.  Just out of curiosity, what are Finland's laws on gun ownership?

Not exactly sure. You can own guns but can't carry loaded ones around I think, they're only really to be owned for collections, shooting ranges and hunting I think. And you have to be at least 15 to buy one.
But they want to change the laws and make them tighter since those pesky school shootings here.

The laws are actually lighter back here.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #175 on: January 06, 2009, 01:52:13 PM »
I know about that study, was one of the ones I wrote about in my essay on recidivism rates, done a lot of research on this.

And I agree with you about the gun control thing. In fact, this thread made me change my mind about gun control, I used to be, vaguely, in favour of it.

Glad to hear you've changed your mind  :).   I hope others will see the same way as you.  Just out of curiosity, what are Finland's laws on gun ownership?

Not exactly sure. You can own guns but can't carry loaded ones around I think, they're only really to be owned for collections, shooting ranges and hunting I think. And you have to be at least 15 to buy one.
But they want to change the laws and make them tighter since those pesky school shootings here.

The laws are actually lighter back here.

I think we have a higher percentage of gun ownership though, one of the highest per capita in the world apparently
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If Gayer doesn't remember you, you might as well do yourself a favor and become an hero.
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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #176 on: January 06, 2009, 02:01:28 PM »
I really think banning guns contributes to school shootings. When my dad was a kid they used to bring guns to school, and leave them in the principle's office to go hunting later, in high school they just left them in their cars.

I bet a lot less kids would turn schools into their personal shooting ranges if the targets shot back.

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KingMan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #177 on: January 06, 2009, 02:13:40 PM »
Or we could just forget law if people are going to ignore it anyway, and just give people guns to defend themselves. How's that sound?

How about we put the criminals away for good instead of letting them back out on the street, and allow the law abiding the ability to effectively defend themselves from those who ignore the law.
But how do we tell the difference? Every person has the ability to go bad.
I hate myself for coming here

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #178 on: January 06, 2009, 02:15:58 PM »
Or we could just forget law if people are going to ignore it anyway, and just give people guns to defend themselves. How's that sound?

How about we put the criminals away for good instead of letting them back out on the street, and allow the law abiding the ability to effectively defend themselves from those who ignore the law.
But how do we tell the difference? Every person has the ability to go bad.

That is why we have to ensure that the population can defend against these criminals when they do go bad.  Then, if they survive, put them away for good.

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Cinlef

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #179 on: January 06, 2009, 02:17:50 PM »
Reading this thread the consensus seems to be that gun control is bad because criminals don't obey the law (and consequently only the law-abiding are disarmed). Which makes perfect sense. However I'm disappointed that no one seems to have responded to goldstein's suggestion that arming everyone will not eliminate the root causes of crime and thus merely ups the ante (ie its true that if he has to choose between an armed citizen and an unarmed one the heroin addict will rob the unarmed one. But if they are both armed, he'll still rob one cause he still needs money for heroin) and it seems likely that criminals woul dhave an incentive to use lethal force more quickly to avoid being shot.
Of course all that really shows is that we should try to eliminate the root causes of crime which I doubt anyone is seriously disputing. nevertheless I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.

An intrigued
Cinlef

Also I couldn't resist.


Countries that have prison systems which focus more on rehabilitation than punishment have lower recidivism rates.

Actually, if you want to see something interesting, look at this:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/wfcj.htm

Crime stats from 45 countries.

As far as I can tell, the countries with the best recidivism rates are the ones that depend more on punishment than rehabilitation.

Iran and some of the other Middle Eastern countries that use the Headman's Axe more than a jail have some very low numbers.

About the only thing I'd ever say in favor of Capital Punishment is that it has no recidivism. (At least until that whole zombie apocalypse thing that featured far to much on this thread.)

As a bumper sticker put it  Capital Punishment means never having to say "You again?"
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

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