Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase

Gun Control

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sokarul

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #840 on: December 14, 2012, 04:43:34 PM »
Yes, I wish that no kids would have died. I wish that there was no suffering on earth. But since that's not going to happen, what is your problem with limiting it as much as possible?
I'm not against limiting it. I believe there is better way to limit the problem other than attacking guns.
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Today something similar happened in China. Some fucker stabbed 22 children. It's a tragedy but no one died. I agree psychiatric help should be better, but I don't understand why you wouldn't want both better psychiatric help AND better control of guns.
Because as you posted, guns are not always used. And not all guns are used in crimes.   

Is this a real question? Yes 5 dead children is better than 18.
ok

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I agree, but what you are talking about is the crime never happening, which is a different discussion. The crime has happened, the presence of a gun directly correlates to an increase in deaths.
So did the school where there was a gathering of kids. Ban schools. The car he drove to the school allowed him to get there quickly with all his guns. Make people ride bikes everywhere. 

Obviously, banning cars and schools is a bad idea. It's not about limiting bad things, it's about stopping bad things. It's not every gun owners fault every time someone kills someone with a gun.


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What point are you trying to make here? That it is possible to harm a single person without a gun? Nobody denies this. You would have more of a case if it said that the man ran into a room with nothing but a hachet and dismembered a dozen people.
My point is beorn and now you, are ignoring the underlying problem.  Crazy people are capable of killing people.  It has nothing to do with guns. Obviously not every murder or gun crime is done by a crazy person though. People should look at the whole incident when something happens. And in this case the whole incident leads to more that just guns, which more will become apparent as the investigation continues. But this of course is just my opinion.
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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #841 on: December 14, 2012, 04:47:11 PM »
Imagine how many it would have been if he had a gun.

Actually a teenager never would have been able to purchase a weapon in any country that allows the sale of guns. Imagine how many lives would have been saved if we banned knives?

You don't need to ban knives. People need them for cooking etc. You just need to legislate that they can't be made with a point. Why the hell do knives have a point anyway? You never ever use the point. You use the blade. If a knife has no point, you can't stab someone with it. Sure you can slash at them, but its going to reduce your capacity to kill considerably.


Dumb and dangerous.


Go stab someone with that.

Why are all knives pointy? Someone tell me this? If I want to chop a carrot, I don't need the pointy bit. I can't think of a single instance where I ever use the pointy bit.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 04:55:40 PM by Thork »

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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #842 on: December 14, 2012, 05:08:11 PM »
You don't need to ban knives. People need them for cooking etc. You just need to legislate that they can't be made with a point. Why the hell do knives have a point anyway? You never ever use the point. You use the blade. If a knife has no point, you can't stab someone with it. Sure you can slash at them, but its going to reduce your capacity to kill considerably.

Go stab someone with that.

Why are all knives pointy? Someone tell me this? If I want to chop a carrot, I don't need the pointy bit. I can't think of a single instance where I ever use the pointy bit.

Clearly someone could just walk through a movie theater slashing people's throats in the dark. That could lead to multiple deaths before people even knew what was happening. No, we should ban all knives.

http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-man-slashes-22-children-near-china-school-20121214,0,6383015.story

See? Slashing is dangerous!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 05:09:45 PM by Rushy »

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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #843 on: December 14, 2012, 05:16:07 PM »
And yet not one fatality, Rushy.

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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #844 on: December 14, 2012, 05:17:10 PM »
And yet not one fatality, Rushy.

Where does it specifically say whether or not they died?

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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #845 on: December 14, 2012, 05:20:31 PM »
And yet not one fatality, Rushy.

Where does it specifically say whether or not they died?
I just knew because I saw the story earlier.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910

22 attacked, all survived. A gun would have changed the outcome considerably.

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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #846 on: December 14, 2012, 05:30:44 PM »
I just knew because I saw the story earlier.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910

22 attacked, all survived. A gun would have changed the outcome considerably.

You're right, I could have easily stopped that knife wielding maniac with a gun. Also, that article does not say they all survived either. At least LA admitted all of their information came from uploaded photos. I assume BBC did the same.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #847 on: December 14, 2012, 06:19:44 PM »
My point is beorn and now you, are ignoring the underlying problem.  Crazy people are capable of killing people.  It has nothing to do with guns. Obviously not every murder or gun crime is done by a crazy person though. People should look at the whole incident when something happens. And in this case the whole incident leads to more that just guns, which more will become apparent as the investigation continues. But this of course is just my opinion.

Do you deny that if he did not have a gun, he would not have killed as many, if any, people? Your car and school examples are ridiculous because they were not used to kill anybody. The killer breathed oxygen, better ban oxygen! Your argument makes no sense.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #848 on: December 14, 2012, 06:51:19 PM »
My point is beorn and now you, are ignoring the underlying problem.  Crazy people are capable of killing people.  It has nothing to do with guns. Obviously not every murder or gun crime is done by a crazy person though. People should look at the whole incident when something happens. And in this case the whole incident leads to more that just guns, which more will become apparent as the investigation continues. But this of course is just my opinion.

Do you deny that if he did not have a gun, he would not have killed as many, if any, people?

How do you know what would have happened if he didn't have a gun? ???

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sokarul

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #849 on: December 14, 2012, 06:59:25 PM »

Do you deny that if he did not have a gun, he would not have killed as many, if any, people? Your car and school examples are ridiculous because they were not used to kill anybody. The killer breathed oxygen, better ban oxygen! Your argument makes no sense.
It would have been harder but not impossible. It would be impossible for me to go target shooting with no gun.
It was brought to my attention that the biggest school mass killing used no guns. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
As for the school and car thing.  Of course it's ridiculous. School doesn't kill people and cars didn't kill anyone in the event we are talking about.  But what did? The shooter or the guns? 
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Tausami

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #850 on: December 14, 2012, 07:20:38 PM »
My point is beorn and now you, are ignoring the underlying problem.  Crazy people are capable of killing people.  It has nothing to do with guns. Obviously not every murder or gun crime is done by a crazy person though. People should look at the whole incident when something happens. And in this case the whole incident leads to more that just guns, which more will become apparent as the investigation continues. But this of course is just my opinion.

Do you deny that if he did not have a gun, he would not have killed as many, if any, people?

How do you know what would have happened if he didn't have a gun? ???

You can't just go around stabbing people for very long, especially in a school. It's slower, harder, and an adult can fight back fairly well.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #851 on: December 14, 2012, 07:51:46 PM »

Do you deny that if he did not have a gun, he would not have killed as many, if any, people? Your car and school examples are ridiculous because they were not used to kill anybody. The killer breathed oxygen, better ban oxygen! Your argument makes no sense.
It would have been harder but not impossible. It would be impossible for me to go target shooting with no gun.

As for the school and car thing.  Of course it's ridiculous. School doesn't kill people and cars didn't kill anyone in the event we are talking about.  But what did? The shooter or the guns?

The gun enabled him to kill them. He killed 6 adults and 20 kids. A gun is a deterrent to people fighting back because there is nothing they can do. If there was a knife instead several of the adults could have overpowered him.

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It was brought to my attention that the biggest school mass killing used no guns. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

How does this help your case at all? It isn't as though bombs are legal.

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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #852 on: December 14, 2012, 08:05:57 PM »
Clearly the legality of a device is irrelevant to its use. The kind of people that would do a school shooting are also the kind that would be willing to go to extremes to do it. The point is that the person, not the gun, is killing people. There is no real way to stop the person. Like you said, Englsh, we can't ban oxygen, but you seem to be trying to ban the next best thing. Ultimately you're doing what you seem to think is ridiculous in the first place.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #853 on: December 14, 2012, 09:32:16 PM »
Clearly the legality of a device is irrelevant to its use.

I was pointing out you gaining nothing by saying, "Look! A banned item killed more people than a non-banned item!"

The kind of people that would do a school shooting are also the kind that would be willing to go to extremes to do it.

If he was willing to go to extremes to do it, he would have gone to those extremes (such as bombing). If he did not have access to a gun, then he most likely would not have killed as many people as he did. People have a sense of power when they have a gun because it is so easy to kill somebody with it. At Columbine, if those boys only had access to knives, do you think for a second they would try going on a rampage at their school? They could have tried stabbing people, but they would have failed, or at the very least far less people would have been hurt.

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The point is that the person, not the gun, is killing people. There is no real way to stop the person. Like you said, Englsh, we can't ban oxygen, but you seem to be trying to ban the next best thing. Ultimately you're doing what you seem to think is ridiculous in the first place.

Yes, the person is killing, but it the they tool that allows them to bring so much destruction. If grenades and C4 were allowed to be bought at a gun store, he would have killed even more people. Hence those sorts of items are not allowed to be sold to civilians, because their primary use is to harm other people. The primary use of a gun is to harm another person. That is it. It doesn't matter if you have found other recreational uses for them.

If ballistic missiles were legal to buy at a store, and it was on the news that some guy shot one into a movie theatre, would you be saying "Ballistic missiles should still be legal, it was the man the killed them, not the missile!" along with other arguments such as "I should be allowed to own missiles. I just like shooting them in the range!"
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:34:22 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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sokarul

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #854 on: December 14, 2012, 10:41:39 PM »
I was pointing out you gaining nothing by saying, "Look! A banned item killed more people than a non-banned item!"
You failed to see that people can obtain banned items. How much gun crime is there in England? Must be zero since guns are banned.  Oh wait, there is still gun crime. 

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If he was willing to go to extremes to do it, he would have gone to those extremes (such as bombing). If he did not have access to a gun, then he most likely would not have killed as many people as he did.
And if he had help to mental healthcare he may not have killed anyone.
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People have a sense of power when they have a gun because it is so easy to kill somebody with it. At Columbine, if those boys only had access to knives, do you think for a second they would try going on a rampage at their school? They could have tried stabbing people, but they would have failed, or at the very least far less people would have been hurt.
They got their guns illegally. Laws don't stop criminals. 
Edit: To add the Connecticut shooter also obtained his guns through some other way as he was only 20. 
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Yes, the person is killing, but it the they tool that allows them to bring so much destruction. If grenades and C4 were allowed to be bought at a gun store, he would have killed even more people. Hence those sorts of items are not allowed to be sold to civilians, because their primary use is to harm other people. The primary use of a gun is to harm another person. That is it. It doesn't matter if you have found other recreational uses for them.
Your opinion does not constitute fact.  Not all guns are made to kill people. Listen to the media less. I know you British were brainwashed when England lost it's guns.  England is so safe without guns yet how many closed circuit cameras are there?   


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If ballistic missiles were legal to buy at a store, and it was on the news that some guy shot one into a movie theatre, would you be saying "Ballistic missiles should still be legal, it was the man the killed them, not the missile!" along with other arguments such as "I should be allowed to own missiles. I just like shooting them in the range!"
Ballistic missiles do not compare to guns.  If he used a toaster to kill 20 people would there be an outcry to ban toasters?  See the problem in your argument? Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.   
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:04:36 PM by sokarul »
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Parsifal

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #855 on: December 14, 2012, 10:53:08 PM »
I know you were brainwashed when England lost it's guns.

Why would EnglshGentleman have been brainwashed when England lost its guns?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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sokarul

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #856 on: December 14, 2012, 10:57:01 PM »
I know you were brainwashed when England lost it's guns.

Why would EnglshGentleman have been brainwashed when England lost its guns?
Apparently he wouldn't because he is not actually British. I will go ahead and change it.   
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #857 on: December 14, 2012, 11:27:28 PM »
Your opinion does not constitute fact.  Not all guns are made to kill people. 


The guns that were used in the shootings were designed to kill people.

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If ballistic missiles were legal to buy at a store, and it was on the news that some guy shot one into a movie theatre, would you be saying "Ballistic missiles should still be legal, it was the man the killed them, not the missile!" along with other arguments such as "I should be allowed to own missiles. I just like shooting them in the range!"
Ballistic missiles do not compare to guns.  If he used a toaster to kill 20 people would there be an outcry to ban toasters?  See the problem in your argument? Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

Actually they do. Guns are designed to kill people, a toaster is not.

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #858 on: December 14, 2012, 11:42:07 PM »
It looks like this guy used his Mums legally owned guns.

If you had the system we have in the UK, those guns would not of been allowed outside of a licenced firing range. He would not be allowed access to them to go around a school killing kids.

Until you guys realise that your gun culture can amplify and cause events like these you're going to continue having them.

We've had a few of these incidents in the UK which changed the law on gun ownership. For instance you're not allowed to own a hand gun outside of a licenced firing range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_(Amendment)_(No._2)_Act_1997



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Parsifal

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #859 on: December 15, 2012, 12:00:13 AM »
I always blame the person, never the tool. For every one person that buys a gun and murders, there are thousands that buy a gun and do no such thing. Clearly the problem is the person and not the gun. You can't remove the problem without removing the person.

I agree. Instead of banning guns, let's just ban people.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #860 on: December 15, 2012, 02:53:55 AM »
I was pointing out you gaining nothing by saying, "Look! A banned item killed more people than a non-banned item!"
You failed to see that people can obtain banned items. How much gun crime is there in England? Must be zero since guns are banned.  Oh wait, there is still gun crime. 

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If he was willing to go to extremes to do it, he would have gone to those extremes (such as bombing). If he did not have access to a gun, then he most likely would not have killed as many people as he did.
And if he had help to mental healthcare he may not have killed anyone.
Quote
People have a sense of power when they have a gun because it is so easy to kill somebody with it. At Columbine, if those boys only had access to knives, do you think for a second they would try going on a rampage at their school? They could have tried stabbing people, but they would have failed, or at the very least far less people would have been hurt.
They got their guns illegally. Laws don't stop criminals. 
Edit: To add the Connecticut shooter also obtained his guns through some other way as he was only 20. 
Quote
Yes, the person is killing, but it the they tool that allows them to bring so much destruction. If grenades and C4 were allowed to be bought at a gun store, he would have killed even more people. Hence those sorts of items are not allowed to be sold to civilians, because their primary use is to harm other people. The primary use of a gun is to harm another person. That is it. It doesn't matter if you have found other recreational uses for them.
Your opinion does not constitute fact.  Not all guns are made to kill people. Listen to the media less. I know you British were brainwashed when England lost it's guns.  England is so safe without guns yet how many closed circuit cameras are there?   


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If ballistic missiles were legal to buy at a store, and it was on the news that some guy shot one into a movie theatre, would you be saying "Ballistic missiles should still be legal, it was the man the killed them, not the missile!" along with other arguments such as "I should be allowed to own missiles. I just like shooting them in the range!"
Ballistic missiles do not compare to guns.  If he used a toaster to kill 20 people would there be an outcry to ban toasters?  See the problem in your argument? Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

I still don't get why you wouldn't want to ban guns. What function do they have in your daily life that makes them so unmissable?
Furthermore, stop with the
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they are banned in England but they are still used
argument. How many times does this kind of shit happen in America? And how many times in England? The evidence is so overwhelming that I just can't grasp how people can still say that legal guns are not a problem.

And the whole
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it doesn't matter what item you have, you can kill someone with everything
argument: Why is it a problem if Iran would get a nuclear weapon? They can kill people anyway, so why would that be a problem?

And lastly, no one is saying that it's just the guns that are at fault. Stop spinning what we say around.
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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #861 on: December 15, 2012, 03:03:52 AM »
The "I need a gun for protection and its my right to protect myself" argument is crap too. Do kids have guns? If a kid doesn't need a gun to protect themselves, a fully grown adult male certainly doesn't.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #862 on: December 15, 2012, 04:18:44 AM »
Kids don't have automobiles either, so everyone should turn their cars in.

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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #863 on: December 15, 2012, 04:20:54 AM »
Automobiles (cars to the rest of the world) are designed for transport. Guns are designed to kill things.

Let me give you another example. I like football. I like watching it, I like playing it, I like computer games with football, I like listening to it on the radio, I have fantasy teams on the internet, I like it.

But if people used footballs to go into schools and kill humpteen children, I wouldn't object to them banning the sport I love. My hobby isn't as important as kids lives. And if you couldn't trust mentally unhinged people not to get hold of a football and kick it at children until they died, then I'd accept the ban and hand my football into the nearest police station.

The US gun laws are about selfish individuals with deep insecurities not wanting to do what is right for society because they don't feel like real men.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:26:04 AM by Thork »

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #864 on: December 15, 2012, 04:24:48 AM »
Automobiles (cars to the rest of the world) are designed for transport. Guns are designed to kill things.

Your claim that adults don't need guns because children aren't allowed to have them still doesn't make sense.

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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #865 on: December 15, 2012, 04:27:28 AM »
Automobiles (cars to the rest of the world) are designed for transport. Guns are designed to kill things.

Your claim that adults don't need guns because children aren't allowed to have them still doesn't make sense.
You don't need a gun to protect yourself. Its nonsense.

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #866 on: December 15, 2012, 04:31:30 AM »
Automobiles (cars to the rest of the world) are designed for transport. Guns are designed to kill things.

Your claim that adults don't need guns because children aren't allowed to have them still doesn't make sense.
You don't need a gun to protect yourself. Its nonsense.

You probably don't, because you don't live in a country where guns are quite common. Not everybody is so lucky.

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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #867 on: December 15, 2012, 04:42:50 AM »
Automobiles (cars to the rest of the world) are designed for transport. Guns are designed to kill things.

Your claim that adults don't need guns because children aren't allowed to have them still doesn't make sense.
You don't need a gun to protect yourself. Its nonsense.

You probably don't, because you don't live in a country where guns are quite common. Not everybody is so lucky.

If only there was such a thing as a central body that can pass on rules to forbid people to have certain stuff...
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Only one thing can save our future. Give Thork a BanHammer for Th*rksakes!

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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #868 on: December 15, 2012, 04:52:41 AM »
Automobiles (cars to the rest of the world) are designed for transport. Guns are designed to kill things.

Your claim that adults don't need guns because children aren't allowed to have them still doesn't make sense.
You don't need a gun to protect yourself. Its nonsense.

You probably don't, because you don't live in a country where guns are quite common. Not everybody is so lucky.
"We need guns because we have guns. "

So the US constitution is based on circular reasoning. You know, you are allowed to amend the crappy bits.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #869 on: December 15, 2012, 04:59:00 AM »
"We don't need guns because we have no guns."

Same circular reasoning, except you've lost a right and we haven't.