Edge of space

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7794834.stm

If the government doesn't even know how far away space is, what makes you think that they've been there?

Ha! Nice, Tom.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7794834.stm

If the government doesn't even know how far away space is, what makes you think that they've been there?

How does a data from a military satellite prove that sustained space flight is impossible? 

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 23, 2008, 05:32:41 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7794834.stm

If the government doesn't even know how far away space is, what makes you think that they've been there?

How does a data from a military satellite prove that sustained space flight is impossible? 

Where did I say that the article proved that sustained space flight was impossible?

Where did I say that the article proved that sustained space flight was impossible?

If the government doesn't even know how far away space is, what makes you think that they've been there?

If you didn't say it, you sure implied it.  But if you want to play that way, let me rephrase.

How does data from a military satellite suggest that NASA (or anybody else) hasn't sent stuff (including satellites) into space?

If you didn't say it, you sure implied it.

I didn't say anything. I just asked a question.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/23/AR2008122302709.html?hpid=moreheadlines

The government is not the only entity to claim to have been in space. Private companies have also. Albeit, they are in league with NASA now.

Private companies have also.

Do you mean government contractors?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7794834.stm

If the government doesn't even know how far away space is, what makes you think that they've been there?

The atmosphere fades into space. There is no distinct distance at which space begins.

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Private companies have also.

Do you mean government contractors?

Actually they offer their services to anybody, not just the government.  If a company wishes to put a new satellite into orbit for say their new sat radio service.  They could now go through a private company.

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Private companies have also.

Do you mean government contractors?

Make no mistake, they are private companies. One has been contracted to predesessor to the space shuttle. It looks like they are trying to promote more industry to get in on it. So one day there will be a healthy space travel industry. I'm pretty confident NASA is legit though. I know some people think otherwise, but I'm not going to argue with it. But NASA would not have to be the only one tangled in the web of deciet. but the article said the company in charge of the new space vehicle is the co-founder of paypal. So you can add pay pal to your suspicion list.

Actually they offer their services to anybody, not just the government.  If a company wishes to put a new satellite into orbit for say their new sat radio service.  They could now go through a private company.

Government contractors have been claiming to put things into space for the last 40 years. Ever heard of Lockheed Martin?

but the article said the company in charge of the new space vehicle is the co-founder of paypal.

Where do you think he got the money to found his pseudo-bank?

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Actually they offer their services to anybody, not just the government.  If a company wishes to put a new satellite into orbit for say their new sat radio service.  They could now go through a private company.

Government contractors have been claiming to put things into space for the last 40 years. Ever heard of Lockheed Martin?

The difference is Lockheed is contracted to build equipment for NASA that goes into space.  SpaceX conducts the actual mission, and builds the equipment to do it.  Let me ask you something, if I own a satellite TV company and I build a proprietary satellite with proprietary software, and I pay SpaceX to put it into geosynchronous orbit.  How would spaceX fake this?

The difference is Lockheed is contracted to build equipment for NASA that goes into space.  SpaceX conducts the actual mission, and builds the equipment to do it.

Space X's last mission was to put up a satellite for the pentagon. Doesn't exactly sound like a private mission to me.

Let me ask you something, if I own a satellite TV company and I build a proprietary satellite with proprietary software, and I pay SpaceX to put it into geosynchronous orbit.  How would spaceX fake this?

By taking your money and putting up a cheaper pseudolite instead.

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The difference is Lockheed is contracted to build equipment for NASA that goes into space.  SpaceX conducts the actual mission, and builds the equipment to do it.

Space X's last mission was to put up a satellite for the pentagon. Doesn't exactly sound like a private mission to me.

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Let me ask you something, if I own a satellite TV company and I build a proprietary satellite with proprietary software, and I pay SpaceX to put it into geosynchronous orbit.  How would spaceX fake this?

By taking your money and putting up a cheaper pseudolite instead.

Here is their manifest:  http://www.spacex.com/launch_manifest.php
Plenty of private missions scheduled.

What exactly is a pseudolite?  How would it be cheaper than a satellite?  How do they work without sustained space flight?  How does it stay airborne?

By taking your money and putting up a cheaper pseudolite instead.

I believe the costs of creating and maintaining the legion of pseudolites required would be far in excess that of a single geosynchronous satellite.

I believe the costs of creating and maintaining the legion of pseudolites required would be far in excess that of a single geosynchronous satellite.

First of all, not all pseudolites are stratellites. A pseudolite is just a satellite-alternative, which can be anything.

Secondly, a fleet of stratellites built at $50,000 a piece and launched from the ground is probably less expensive than one satellite launched by rocket. If we go by what NASA says about its satellites, the actual satellite is the cheapest part. The vast majority of the money goes into just getting it up there.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/satellite8.htm

"According to this report, a satellite launch can cost anywhere between $50 million and $400 million."

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I believe the costs of creating and maintaining the legion of pseudolites required would be far in excess that of a single geosynchronous satellite.

First of all, not all pseudolites are stratellites. A pseudolite is just a satellite-alternative, which can be anything.

Secondly, a fleet of stratellites built at $50,000 a piece and launched from the ground is probably less expensive than one satellite launched by rocket. If we go by what NASA says about its satellites, the actual satellite is the cheapest part. The vast majority of the money goes into just getting it up there.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/satellite8.htm

"According to this report, a satellite launch can cost anywhere between $50 million and $400 million."

Did you just make up 50,000 dollars?  It cost over 2 million just for a small blimp, more if they are larger, and that is not including operational costs.  Its going to cost MUCH more for a single stratellite! Add to that because you are going to need far more stratellites to cover the area that 2 satellites can cover.  (XM radio covered the entire US with just 2 satellites)  The best stratellites will only be able to cover a ground area with a 200 mile diameter.  In addition, they have to be brought down for regular maintinence, which means you will have to have some kind of redundancy (at least 2 stratellites covering a single geographic area, so 1 would always be up at all times).  

Let me put it this way, SpaceX is offering their service for anywhere between 8 - 11 million.  It would cost them FAR more than that to fake the launch and instead put up hundreds if not more stratellites (each twice as large as a blue wale) to give the same coverage.  Where did you get 50 thousand from?

Most of the Mercedes benz vehicles cost more than 50k.

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Let me ask you something, if I own a satellite TV company and I build a proprietary satellite with proprietary software, and I pay SpaceX to put it into geosynchronous orbit.  How would spaceX fake this?

By taking your money and putting up a cheaper pseudolite instead.

If SpaceX (or anyone else) were to secretly replace a customer's single geostationary satellite with one or more pseudolites, the customer would notice.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 24, 2008, 04:57:33 AM

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Let me ask you something, if I own a satellite TV company and I build a proprietary satellite with proprietary software, and I pay SpaceX to put it into geosynchronous orbit.  How would spaceX fake this?

By taking your money and putting up a cheaper pseudolite instead.

If SpaceX (or anyone else) were to secretly replace a customer's single geostationary satellite with one or more pseudolites, the customer would notice.

Especially if they are using PROPRIETARY software.

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Private companies have also.

Do you mean government contractors?

My wife is a government contractor.

the actual satellite is the cheapest part. The vast majority of the money goes into just getting it up there.

But the actual satellite is the only part that can be faked. Everyone still observes the companies fire expensive rockets up into space, and thus the companies still need to pay for the rocket. Creating and maintaining the fleet of pseudolites would cost far more than the amount of money they have available.

The best stratellites will only be able to cover a ground area with a 200 mile diameter.

Did you forget that a stratellite could see farther if the earth were flat?

Let me put it this way, SpaceX is offering their service for anywhere between 8 - 11 million.  It would cost them FAR more than that to fake the launch and instead put up hundreds if not more stratellites (each twice as large as a blue wale) to give the same coverage.  Where did you get 50 thousand from?

These guys were able to make a stratellite and send it up to look down at the circular spotlight of the sun for less than a couple hundred dollars: http://www.natrium42.com/halo/flight2/

If SpaceX (or anyone else) were to secretly replace a customer's single geostationary satellite with one or more pseudolites, the customer would notice.

I told you already. Pseudolites are more than just stratellites. Radio towers, bouncing signals off of the ionsphere with sat dishes, and craft that orbit the earth's hub are also possibilities.

But the actual satellite is the only part that can be faked. Everyone still observes the companies fire expensive rockets up into space, and thus the companies still need to pay for the rocket. Creating and maintaining the fleet of pseudolites would cost far more than the amount of money they have available.

The rocket is just a light construction prop which blasts off into the atmosphere until it can no longer be seen. I've made water bottle rockets out of a few dollars of materials that could blast off into the atmosphere until it could no longer be seen.

Quote from: markjo on December 24, 2008, 06:32:31 AM

If SpaceX (or anyone else) were to secretly replace a customer's single geostationary satellite with one or more pseudolites, the customer would notice.

I told you already. Pseudolites are more than just stratellites. Radio towers, bouncing signals off of the ionsphere with sat dishes, and craft that orbit the earth's hub are also possibilities.

Maybe a pseudolite could fool the satellite TV customers, but it would not fool the customer who paid to have their TV satellite launched in the first place.  If I'm paying SpaceX $10 million or more to put a satellite into a particular orbit for me, they had better know that I have ways of knowing if they put up a pseudolite instead.

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But the actual satellite is the only part that can be faked. Everyone still observes the companies fire expensive rockets up into space, and thus the companies still need to pay for the rocket. Creating and maintaining the fleet of pseudolites would cost far more than the amount of money they have available.

The rocket is just a light construction prop which blasts off into the atmosphere until it can no longer be seen. I've made water bottle rockets out of a few dollars of materials that could blast off into the atmosphere until it could no longer be seen.

Do you have any evidence to support your outlandish positive claim of launching water bottle rockets?

I've made water bottle rockets out of a few dollars of materials that could blast off into the atmosphere until it could no longer be seen.

Was this bottle rocket 50 meters long, painted brilliant white and spewing a huge cloud and a bright light out it's end?

Perhaps you can get a small plastic bottle out your sights (although this in itself seems unlikely) but a rocket is a rather large and bright thing.

[quote author=Tom Bishop link=topic=25675.msg573435#msg573435 date=1230135733

These guys were able to make a stratellite and send it up to look down at the circular spotlight of the sun for less than a couple hundred dollars: http://www.natrium42.com/halo/flight2/


[/quote]

That is a whether balloon, hardly capable of sustained geosynchronous flight, maneuverability, landing capabilities, and sophisticated signal capabilities, that is a camera and some sensory equipment attached to a helium balloon.  Not even a small blimp has all of that and it is still 2 million dollars.

Maybe a pseudolite could fool the satellite TV customers, but it would not fool the customer who paid to have their TV satellite launched in the first place.  If I'm paying SpaceX $10 million or more to put a satellite into a particular orbit for me, they had better know that I have ways of knowing if they put up a pseudolite instead.

Really? You point a satellite dish at a certain area of the sky. How could you tell that the signal is coming from a satellite, radio signal bounced off of the ionosphere, or a craft rotating around the hub of the earth like the sun and moon?

That is a whether balloon, hardly capable of sustained geosynchronous flight, maneuverability, landing capabilities, and sophisticated signal capabilities, that is a camera and some sensory equipment attached to a helium balloon.  Not even a small blimp has all of that and it is still 2 million dollars.

I'm pretty sure a couple fans and a solar panel wouldn't cut too much into the cost of that stratellite.

On markjos original point, how does data from a satellite prove the goverment cannot send things into space?
If all satellites are fakes, how do we get data from satellites like poseidon (google it)?