Abortion

Webster defines animal as

any of a kingdom (Animalia) of eukaryotes generally characterized by a multicellular body, the ability to move quickly and obtain food, specialized sense organs, and sexual reproduction

The definition you seem to be trying to link animal to is not a biological one. In terms of biology, humans meet the criteria for animals, and just because we have unique traits does not mean we are not animals. All species have unique traits, really. We just have higher intelligence than most other animals.

Quote from: Raist on January 07, 2010, 07:12:24 PM

I will give you one final chance, what qualifications for animal do we not meet. I do not mean the dictionary definition of animal meaning "inhuman behavior" I mean the biological definition for animal. (lacks cell walls, etc.)

Humans extend past the biological definition of animal.  Thats what makes us human.

Right, humans which are a subset of animal, existing under the umbrella of Aminalia.

also by your own admission:

No that makes them a smarter animal. 

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on January 08, 2010, 04:59:52 AM

also by your own admission:

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on January 07, 2010, 06:34:29 PM

No that makes them a smarter animal.  

We were talking about animals that use tools.  lrn2quoteincontext

Quote from: Its a Sphere on January 08, 2010, 05:55:24 AM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on January 08, 2010, 04:59:52 AM

also by your own admission:

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on January 07, 2010, 06:34:29 PM

No that makes them a smarter animal. 

We were talking about animals that use tools.  lrn2quoteincontext

Here is your entire quote, in context.  All 4 words of it.

Quote from: toothyp1cks on January 07, 2010, 02:59:01 AM

Foetus = part of woman's body
Parts of woman's body = woman's property
Foetus = property
Property can be destroyed.

Until a child is born (and probably for a while after), I don't think it has developed intelligence. It does not think beyond instincts, and we kill animals who do the same thing every day.

Humans are not animals.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on January 07, 2010, 04:32:30 PM

Have you ever had a chicken coop?  Dogs will break into it and kill the chickens and then leave them there.  I do believe they just like doing it.

My dog is filled with wonder and awe ever time we sit down at the table for dinner.

My dog is jealous if I pay attention to another dog, or person.  

Not the same.  A dog "plays" with a chicken like a chew toy.  Problem is chickens don't stand up like a good ol' squeaky toy. 

No, your dog wants some food, and is always hungry.  Not in awe that you sit at the table and eat.

I may give you this one, but jealousy and envy are different.   Envy is hateful.  Jealous is not always.

So you think chew toys were invented before there were chickens? A dog "plays" with a chicken to death, because the dog enjoys it. 

Hmm which came first, the chicken or the chew toy?

Quote from: Raist on January 07, 2010, 07:12:24 PM

I will give you one final chance, what qualifications for animal do we not meet. I do not mean the dictionary definition of animal meaning "inhuman behavior" I mean the biological definition for animal. (lacks cell walls, etc.)

Humans extend past the biological definition of animal.  Thats what makes us human.

Sorry, you can't extend past the definition of animal. You might as well say that scorpions are not animals because their stingers deliver venom and that is just way too scary to be an animal

Whether or not humans are animals is irrelevant to the topic of abortion.

Whether or not humans are animals is irrelevant to the topic of abortion.

Well we are aborting humans, so it is relevant in that way.

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 08, 2010, 03:51:02 PM

Whether or not humans are animals is irrelevant to the topic of abortion.

Well we are aborting humans, so it is relevant in that way.

A rose by any other name, etc....

Whether or not humans are animals is irrelevant to the topic of abortion.

correct. this is crazy and off topic. Animal or not, it is about killing something which is a potential lifeform.

Quote from: Raist on January 08, 2010, 03:52:15 PM

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 08, 2010, 03:51:02 PM

Whether or not humans are animals is irrelevant to the topic of abortion.

Well we are aborting humans, so it is relevant in that way.

A rose by any other name, etc....

I think Ima hafta go with Raist on this one....Society, as well as the law, sees killing humans as a much bigger offense than killing animals. I'm still pro-choice, but the fact that its an organism with the potential to become a human->has relevance.

Indeed. It doesn't really matter if the foetus is living or not. We kill living things all the time (and abortion is killing). The real question should be at what point does the foetus become human and sentient, thereby making it immoral to kill them. Killing something that is self-aware transforms the act into murder.

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 08, 2010, 03:53:51 PM

Quote from: Raist on January 08, 2010, 03:52:15 PM

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 08, 2010, 03:51:02 PM

Whether or not humans are animals is irrelevant to the topic of abortion.

Well we are aborting humans, so it is relevant in that way.

A rose by any other name, etc....

I think Ima hafta go with Raist on this one....Society, as well as the law, sees killing humans as a much bigger offense than killing animals. I'm still pro-choice, but the fact that its an organism with the potential to become a human->has relevance.

I don't think you quite understand. However you define a "human", it will still be what it is. People are not going to suddenly become more lenient towards killing each other simply because the definition has changed.

Quote from: Althalus on January 06, 2010, 04:41:28 PM

Quote from: Raist on January 01, 2009, 01:28:00 PM

Libertarians are for banishment of the age of consent. (currently their stance is lowering it, their overall goal is abolishment.)

I'm sorry did you use an organization you knew nothing about for information? Very credible source then.

Tolerance is not approval. Libertarians are generally against outlawing unseemly behaviour such as abortion, prostitution or drug use.

Actually they think it should be a state issue and are fairly split on the abortion debate.

They think all of the above should be a state issue and be legal at the state and national level. and most support abortion rights as control over a persons own body.

ok every1. whats up
in terms of killing id just like 2 say definition dont matter cuz the feautus is not rly alive until it pops outta the woman. so wat we hav here is fetus maybnot being alive cuz it leeches off the woman. i think abortion is a right but remember 2 watch out for a republican sneak attackon htis one.

ok every1. whats up
in terms of killing id just like 2 say definition dont matter cuz the feautus is not rly alive until it pops outta the woman. so wat we hav here is fetus maybnot being alive cuz it leeches off the woman. i think abortion is a right but remember 2 watch out for a republican sneak attackon htis one.

What's up? Bad spelling and grammar it seems.

Quote from: Sadistic on January 08, 2010, 05:14:40 PM

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 08, 2010, 03:53:51 PM

Quote from: Raist on January 08, 2010, 03:52:15 PM

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 08, 2010, 03:51:02 PM

Whether or not humans are animals is irrelevant to the topic of abortion.

Well we are aborting humans, so it is relevant in that way.

A rose by any other name, etc....

I think Ima hafta go with Raist on this one....Society, as well as the law, sees killing humans as a much bigger offense than killing animals. I'm still pro-choice, but the fact that its an organism with the potential to become a human->has relevance.

I don't think you quite understand. However you define a "human", it will still be what it is. People are not going to suddenly become more lenient towards killing each other simply because the definition has changed.

People are pretty lenient about killing each other as it is. Unless the murder somehow scares them into thinking they themselves could be killed (or they are obsessed with spreading morality due to an ingrained troll reflex) they will not give a shit. Genocide in Darfur? Let's send food. Constant rocket attacks between Israel and Pakistan? They should talk it out.

Killing has never bothered humanity in the slightest.

In my opinion, I don't care.
It's a choice for the woman and the doctor and the government shouldn't have the power to say that you can't.
If you are against abortions, don't get an abortion.
If you want an abortion, get an abortion.
Ta da, problem solved.
Legalise abortions and let the people actually involved sort it out.

In my opinion, I don't care.
It's a choice for the woman and the doctor and the government shouldn't have the power to say that you can't.
If you are against abortions, don't get an abortion.
If you want an abortion, get an abortion.
Ta da, problem solved.
Legalise abortions and let the people actually involved sort it out.

The problem being that people are usually obsessed with what other people are doing.

Quote from: toothyp1cks on January 09, 2010, 03:24:48 AM

In my opinion, I don't care.
It's a choice for the woman and the doctor and the government shouldn't have the power to say that you can't.
If you are against abortions, don't get an abortion.
If you want an abortion, get an abortion.
Ta da, problem solved.
Legalise abortions and let the people actually involved sort it out.

The problem being that people are usually obsessed with what other people are doing.

The problem with that is that people are usually dumbasses.

Quote from: Trekky0623 on January 09, 2010, 07:31:25 AM

Quote from: toothyp1cks on January 09, 2010, 03:24:48 AM

In my opinion, I don't care.
It's a choice for the woman and the doctor and the government shouldn't have the power to say that you can't.
If you are against abortions, don't get an abortion.
If you want an abortion, get an abortion.
Ta da, problem solved.
Legalise abortions and let the people actually involved sort it out.

The problem being that people are usually obsessed with what other people are doing.

The problem with that is that people are usually dumbasses.

No, they are usually people that are only comfortable in thinking in absolutes. It's one of the definitive signs of a republican, and one of an extremist christian. When dealing in absolutes there is no room for someone simply having a differing opinion, they have to be wrong, and evil. They spout that "Gays are wicked" "Gays are evil" etc. For no reason other than a differing viewpoint on an issue. They have to label the entire group as evil or they feel uncomfortable.

It's one of the definitive signs of a republican,

A little harsh.

Quote from: Raist on January 09, 2010, 01:33:31 PM

It's one of the definitive signs of a republican,

A little harsh.

Not really, it's a common thread through the Republican party. There may be exceptions, but very few to none when it comes to the more right leaning ones.

People are pretty lenient about killing each other as it is.
Killing has never bothered humanity in the slightest.

That is a huge generalization and is largely inaccurate.

Quote from: Raist on January 09, 2010, 01:38:28 AM

People are pretty lenient about killing each other as it is.
Killing has never bothered humanity in the slightest.

That is a huge generalization and is largely inaccurate.

So who did the crusades bother?
When Rome conquered most of the known world at the time who bemoaned the deaths?
Who denounced the Colosseum other than those that were at risk to be thrown into it?


Murder does not bother humanity. At most it scares some individuals. It may be a generalization but it is generally true.

A murderer gets the electric chair. Does it bother you? No. Why? Because you aren't a murderer so you have nothing to fear from it.


My point is, murder doesn't bother us, the fear that it could happen to us scares us. Since we all are developed past the age of a fetus there is no risk in allowing abortion.

One final question, you turn on the news and see a murder. It's not especially horrific, just the run of the mill gang shootings. Does it disturb you in any way? Do you even notice it as more than a passing fact?

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 09, 2010, 07:27:39 PM

Quote from: Raist on January 09, 2010, 01:38:28 AM

People are pretty lenient about killing each other as it is.
Killing has never bothered humanity in the slightest.

That is a huge generalization and is largely inaccurate.

So who did the crusades bother?
When Rome conquered most of the known world at the time who bemoaned the deaths?
Who denounced the Colosseum other than those that were at risk to be thrown into it?


Murder does not bother humanity. At most it scares some individuals. It may be a generalization but it is generally true.

A murderer gets the electric chair. Does it bother you? No. Why? Because you aren't a murderer so you have nothing to fear from it.


My point is, murder doesn't bother us, the fear that it could happen to us scares us. Since we all are developed past the age of a fetus there is no risk in allowing abortion.

One final question, you turn on the news and see a murder. It's not especially horrific, just the run of the mill gang shootings. Does it disturb you in any way? Do you even notice it as more than a passing fact?

I think you're confusing "humanity" with a few power-hungry top government officials.

Quote from: Raist on January 09, 2010, 07:38:45 PM

Quote from: BanthaPoodoo on January 09, 2010, 07:27:39 PM

Quote from: Raist on January 09, 2010, 01:38:28 AM

People are pretty lenient about killing each other as it is.
Killing has never bothered humanity in the slightest.

That is a huge generalization and is largely inaccurate.

So who did the crusades bother?
When Rome conquered most of the known world at the time who bemoaned the deaths?
Who denounced the Colosseum other than those that were at risk to be thrown into it?


Murder does not bother humanity. At most it scares some individuals. It may be a generalization but it is generally true.

A murderer gets the electric chair. Does it bother you? No. Why? Because you aren't a murderer so you have nothing to fear from it.


My point is, murder doesn't bother us, the fear that it could happen to us scares us. Since we all are developed past the age of a fetus there is no risk in allowing abortion.

One final question, you turn on the news and see a murder. It's not especially horrific, just the run of the mill gang shootings. Does it disturb you in any way? Do you even notice it as more than a passing fact?

I think you're confusing "humanity" with a few power-hungry top government officials.

No, by humanity I mean the billions of people that did nothing to stop it. I'm talking about apathy towards killing, not killing.

People are pretty lenient about killing each other as it is. Unless the murder somehow scares them into thinking they themselves could be killed (or they are obsessed with spreading morality due to an ingrained troll reflex) they will not give a shit. Genocide in Darfur? Let's send food. Constant rocket attacks between Israel and Pakistan? They should talk it out.

Killing has never bothered humanity in the slightest.

To say killing has never bothered humanity is an overstatement. People may watch the news and hear about the Genocide in Darfur or Fighting in Pakistan, and may feel genuine empathy, but most of them don't feel they could change something like that in the world.

To say that a lot of morality is based around self-interest is pretty accurate, but that's not the same as saying that no humans have an intrinsic empathy.

This topic doesn't seem to be able to stay very consistent from one subject to the next...