Would you still be you?

  • 64 Replies
  • 15990 Views
?

Moonlit

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6059
  • +0/-0
  • The Rebound
Would you still be you?
« on: December 17, 2008, 11:59:11 AM »
For those of you who believe in some sort of after-life I'd like to know where you stand on this.  If someone were to be cloned and that clone was raised and acted as a human, would they go on after their death?  Since they aren't naturally conceived, could it affect whether or not you have a soul? 

Another interesting one.  If we were to take the memories, emotions, and thoughts of a human being and put it into a machine, would he/she/it have an after-life?

Edit:  I thought the new title of this thread to be more appropriate for the discussion.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 12:39:16 PM by Moonlit »
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2008, 12:05:43 PM »
No to all.

?

Moonlit

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6059
  • +0/-0
  • The Rebound
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 12:06:42 PM »
-.- I wanted a debate.  Not a three word reply.

Why not?
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 12:07:11 PM »
Because there's no such thing as a soul or after-life?

?

Moonlit

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6059
  • +0/-0
  • The Rebound
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 12:08:21 PM »
Because there's no such thing as a soul or after-life?

For those of you who believe in some sort of after-life I'd like to know where you stand on this.  
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 12:08:50 PM »
Because there's no such thing as a soul or after-life?

For those of you who believe in some sort of after-life I'd like to know where you stand on this.  

You can't have a debate without a view from all angles.

*

Dead Kangaroo

  • FES' Anchor Roo
  • The Elder Ones
  • 4551
  • +0/-0
  • K800 Model 101.
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 12:10:54 PM »
From the point after it is cloned, yes, it's life will be distinct to the original's from then on.

?

Moonlit

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6059
  • +0/-0
  • The Rebound
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 12:11:33 PM »
Because there's no such thing as a soul or after-life?

For those of you who believe in some sort of after-life I'd like to know where you stand on this.  

You can't have a debate without a view from all angles.

You refuse to debate based on your view of the after-life.  So there's no debate if you post.

Here, be hypothetical.  If a soul or an after-life existed, would a clone or machine be capable of having one?
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

*

Dead Kangaroo

  • FES' Anchor Roo
  • The Elder Ones
  • 4551
  • +0/-0
  • K800 Model 101.
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 12:22:32 PM »
A clone is not a machine, a machine can have limited sentience given sufficient programming, I doubt so far as a "soul" being possible in this hypothesis.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2008, 12:28:43 PM »
I would say that until we isolate exactly what a soul is (assuming they exist) we would never be able to replicate it.  If we can make a perfect clone that is the exact genetic double of the source then yes, I would think it would have a soul, because it should possess all of the attributes of the original.  That is unless you assume a soul is something entirely transcendental and therefore can only be put in a being by a higher power.  But no to machines one way or the other because they're artificial and designed entirely by humans, and therefore limited in attributes to what we're capable of producing.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

?

Moonlit

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6059
  • +0/-0
  • The Rebound
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2008, 12:30:50 PM »
A clone is not a machine, a machine can have limited sentience given sufficient programming, I doubt so far as a "soul" being possible in this hypothesis.

I never implied that a clone was a machine.

@Roundy:  Even if the machine were capable of feeling emotions and acting humane, like say, Data or The Bicentennial Man?
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2008, 12:53:44 PM »
@Roundy:  Even if the machine were capable of feeling emotions and acting humane, like say, Data or The Bicentennial Man?

I don't see how a machine could literally be capable of feeling emotions.  I don't see how such a thing could be possible in a machine without it being contrived by humans, so if you think that's what a soul is, and we could imbue it in machines, then I suppose we could artificially create a soul in a machine - but it still requires that we understand specifically what a soul actually is; otherwise we could never artificially replicate it.  On the other hand most religions envision a soul as being something immaterial, and if that's the case I don't see how we could replicate it.  At that point it would take an act of God to give the machine a soul.  As humans we can make it appear more and more that a machine has a soul, but it would all be mechanical and the machine would only seem to act humanely and exhibit emotions; it wouldn't really have a soul.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2008, 01:12:17 PM »
I think that a soul in a more non-religious sense can be defined as one's personality.

If you can give a machine a personality, then essentially that would be it's equivilant of a soul.

However, I don't think that a machine could go on to the afterlife. I don't think a person can, either. But I digress.

?

Moonlit

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6059
  • +0/-0
  • The Rebound
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2008, 01:15:37 PM »
I don't see how a machine could literally be capable of feeling emotions.  I don't see how such a thing could be possible in a machine without it being contrived by humans, so if you think that's what a soul is, and we could imbue it in machines, then I suppose we could artificially create a soul in a machine - but it still requires that we understand specifically what a soul actually is; otherwise we could never artificially replicate it.  On the other hand most religions envision a soul as being something immaterial, and if that's the case I don't see how we could replicate it.  At that point it would take an act of God to give the machine a soul.  As humans we can make it appear more and more that a machine has a soul, but it would all be mechanical and the machine would only seem to act humanely and exhibit emotions; it wouldn't really have a soul.

Let's say you're on your deathbed and this is a great deal in the future.  A doctor has offered you two choices.  1.  You die and 2. Your memories, thoughts, and emotions can be downloaded on a machine so that you can continue to live.  If you choose the second one...are you really still alive?
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2008, 01:24:07 PM »
I don't see how a machine could literally be capable of feeling emotions.  I don't see how such a thing could be possible in a machine without it being contrived by humans, so if you think that's what a soul is, and we could imbue it in machines, then I suppose we could artificially create a soul in a machine - but it still requires that we understand specifically what a soul actually is; otherwise we could never artificially replicate it.  On the other hand most religions envision a soul as being something immaterial, and if that's the case I don't see how we could replicate it.  At that point it would take an act of God to give the machine a soul.  As humans we can make it appear more and more that a machine has a soul, but it would all be mechanical and the machine would only seem to act humanely and exhibit emotions; it wouldn't really have a soul.

Let's say you're on your deathbed and this is a great deal in the future.  A doctor has offered you two choices.  1.  You die and 2. Your memories, thoughts, and emotions can be downloaded on a machine so that you can continue to live.  If you choose the second one...are you really still alive?

That's a good question.  I don't think so.  Broadly I don't think this would satisfy the definition of life; more narrowly, I'm not sure that the downloading of my memories, thoughts, and emotions onto a machine really transfers the continuation of my consciousness.  It's like Swamp Thing (a great comic that happens to address as its main theme this very issue, in a sense).  Alec Holland dies in a fire in the swamp.  A new being rises up with his identical memories, thoughts, and emotions, and initially believes that he is actually Alec Holland, transformed.  Later it turns out that Alec Holland did actually die, but his memories, thoughts, and emotions were transferred into the Swamp Thing's form.  It acted like Alec Holland, thought like Alec Holland, and for a while, thought it was Alec Holland.  But in reality it was just a copy.  That's what I think would happen in your scenario.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Wendy

  • 18427
  • +0/-0
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2008, 02:12:39 PM »
Because there's no such thing as a soul or after-life?

For those of you who believe in some sort of after-life I'd like to know where you stand on this.  

You can't have a debate without a view from all angles.

Welcome to R&P, where there is no legitimate debate.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2008, 04:19:23 PM »
For those of you who believe in some sort of after-life I'd like to know where you stand on this.  If someone were to be cloned and that clone was raised and acted as a human, would they go on after their death?  Since they aren't naturally conceived, could it affect whether or not you have a soul? 

Another interesting one.  If we were to take the memories, emotions, and thoughts of a human being and put it into a machine, would he/she/it have an after-life?

Would an identical twin have a soul?

*

Wendy

  • 18427
  • +0/-0
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2008, 04:22:53 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

?

Ravenwood240

  • 2070
  • +0/-0
  • I disagree. What was the Question?
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2008, 04:36:52 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?

No, they don't.  While the physical form of a set of twins may be the same, their mental and emotional reactions vary widely.  If the soul is not a metaphysical creation of a higher power, but the expression of what makes one person different from anyone else, then twins would each have their own soul.

(Speaking as the sister of two sets of twins, (one identical one fraternal)  I have to say they have their own souls.)
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2008, 04:53:24 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?

No, they don't.  While the physical form of a set of twins may be the same, their mental and emotional reactions vary widely.  If the soul is not a metaphysical creation of a higher power, but the expression of what makes one person different from anyone else, then twins would each have their own soul.

(Speaking as the sister of two sets of twins, (one identical one fraternal)  I have to say they have their own souls.)


Twins act pretty much the same if they are identical and raised the same. My little brothers I can tell apart, but I couldn't tell you how.

?

Ravenwood240

  • 2070
  • +0/-0
  • I disagree. What was the Question?
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2008, 05:12:17 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?

No, they don't.  While the physical form of a set of twins may be the same, their mental and emotional reactions vary widely.  If the soul is not a metaphysical creation of a higher power, but the expression of what makes one person different from anyone else, then twins would each have their own soul.

(Speaking as the sister of two sets of twins, (one identical one fraternal)  I have to say they have their own souls.)


Twins act pretty much the same if they are identical and raised the same. My little brothers I can tell apart, but I couldn't tell you how.

Watch them for an hour or so.  One twin will be the Alpha twin, the leader.  That twin will be the one that decides what they're going to etc.

Later on, (14-17 years of age)  That twin will be more protective of the other and generally more out going.  By the time they reach 18, anyone that grew up with them or was around them consistently will be able to tell the difference between them.  I'm not sure how exactly.  I thought it was body language and movements, but a couple of the others say it was language and word choice.

Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2008, 05:34:34 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?

No, they don't.  While the physical form of a set of twins may be the same, their mental and emotional reactions vary widely.  If the soul is not a metaphysical creation of a higher power, but the expression of what makes one person different from anyone else, then twins would each have their own soul.

(Speaking as the sister of two sets of twins, (one identical one fraternal)  I have to say they have their own souls.)


Twins act pretty much the same if they are identical and raised the same. My little brothers I can tell apart, but I couldn't tell you how.

Watch them for an hour or so.  One twin will be the Alpha twin, the leader.  That twin will be the one that decides what they're going to etc.

Later on, (14-17 years of age)  That twin will be more protective of the other and generally more out going.  By the time they reach 18, anyone that grew up with them or was around them consistently will be able to tell the difference between them.  I'm not sure how exactly.  I thought it was body language and movements, but a couple of the others say it was language and word choice.



You're talking about normal human behavior there. The fact is, they tend to go there separate ways or just end up in the same place. Not the type of twins that go everywhere together. One is easily more aggressive but he is also the one that baaaws easier (gets mad about the other one not listening). The less aggressive one makes his own decisions and tends to take the other one out if he tries to tell him what to do.

They beat up a freshmen when they were in the 3rd grade though. It was hilarious.

?

Ravenwood240

  • 2070
  • +0/-0
  • I disagree. What was the Question?
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 05:37:39 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?

No, they don't.  While the physical form of a set of twins may be the same, their mental and emotional reactions vary widely.  If the soul is not a metaphysical creation of a higher power, but the expression of what makes one person different from anyone else, then twins would each have their own soul.

(Speaking as the sister of two sets of twins, (one identical one fraternal)  I have to say they have their own souls.)


Twins act pretty much the same if they are identical and raised the same. My little brothers I can tell apart, but I couldn't tell you how.

Watch them for an hour or so.  One twin will be the Alpha twin, the leader.  That twin will be the one that decides what they're going to etc.

Later on, (14-17 years of age)  That twin will be more protective of the other and generally more out going.  By the time they reach 18, anyone that grew up with them or was around them consistently will be able to tell the difference between them.  I'm not sure how exactly.  I thought it was body language and movements, but a couple of the others say it was language and word choice.



You're talking about normal human behavior there. The fact is, they tend to go there separate ways or just end up in the same place. Not the type of twins that go everywhere together. One is easily more aggressive but he is also the one that baaaws easier (gets mad about the other one not listening). The less aggressive one makes his own decisions and tends to take the other one out if he tries to tell him what to do.

They beat up a freshmen when they were in the 3rd grade though. It was hilarious.

True.  Normal human behavior.  If they were sharing a soul, (Which was where we started all this.)  They would not have those differences.  They would be absolutely alike even in personality and emotional actions.

Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2008, 05:41:29 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?

No, they don't.  While the physical form of a set of twins may be the same, their mental and emotional reactions vary widely.  If the soul is not a metaphysical creation of a higher power, but the expression of what makes one person different from anyone else, then twins would each have their own soul.

(Speaking as the sister of two sets of twins, (one identical one fraternal)  I have to say they have their own souls.)


Twins act pretty much the same if they are identical and raised the same. My little brothers I can tell apart, but I couldn't tell you how.

Watch them for an hour or so.  One twin will be the Alpha twin, the leader.  That twin will be the one that decides what they're going to etc.

Later on, (14-17 years of age)  That twin will be more protective of the other and generally more out going.  By the time they reach 18, anyone that grew up with them or was around them consistently will be able to tell the difference between them.  I'm not sure how exactly.  I thought it was body language and movements, but a couple of the others say it was language and word choice.



You're talking about normal human behavior there. The fact is, they tend to go there separate ways or just end up in the same place. Not the type of twins that go everywhere together. One is easily more aggressive but he is also the one that baaaws easier (gets mad about the other one not listening). The less aggressive one makes his own decisions and tends to take the other one out if he tries to tell him what to do.

They beat up a freshmen when they were in the 3rd grade though. It was hilarious.

True.  Normal human behavior.  If they were sharing a soul, (Which was where we started all this.)  They would not have those differences.  They would be absolutely alike even in personality and emotional actions.



I think defining the word soul would be important here, I think that people are affected by life experiences.

*

Masterchef

  • 3894
  • +0/-0
  • Rabble rabble rabble
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2008, 05:59:49 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?
I was an identical twin, and I can assure you that I didn't get a soul.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2008, 06:04:38 PM »
That's an interesting issue. Identical twins are only one fertilized egg from the start, then split into two after a while. Do they only share a soul?
I was an identical twin, and I can assure you that I didn't get a soul.

We like you anyways masterchief. was an identical twin? story there?

*

Masterchef

  • 3894
  • +0/-0
  • Rabble rabble rabble
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2008, 06:15:38 PM »
We like you anyways masterchief. was an identical twin? story there?
He died when we were 3 1/2 months old. SIDS.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2008, 06:17:10 PM »
Damn.

?

paddy

  • 111
  • +0/-0
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2008, 12:01:58 AM »
Let's say you're on your deathbed and this is a great deal in the future.  A doctor has offered you two choices.  1.  You die and 2. Your memories, thoughts, and emotions can be downloaded on a machine so that you can continue to live.  If you choose the second one...are you really still alive?

I'd have to say no, because, we are talking about one's consciousness.  I think a new consciousness would begin, and the old "you" would die.  This is because, when you look at it, it's not a "transfer" but a destructive copy process.  All the attributes of your consciousness are first duplicated, then the original is destroyed.  You would see the machine whir to life from your bed, and then the lights would go out. 

On a similar note - I wouldn't step onto a star-trek transporter either.  I am pretty sure I'd "die" and a doppelganger would take my place at the other location.  The copy would be sure the transporter worked, unable to tell it's consciousness only began that second, and decide they are entirely safe and don't interfere with the continuity of a conscious being's experience, but that would be an illusion.

That.... or all continuity of consciousness is an illusion - for all I know the individual life-cycle of consciousness only exists for a millisecond, or until one falls asleep... no way to know for sure.  Not being able to know - I think I'd play it safe.


Another question:  Your friend who saved your life once is dying, and gets cloned and has his consciousness transferred.  Before the original is destroyed, someone busts into the room and says they have a cure that will let him live in perfect health, but with a 10% of relapse.  You, him, his clone all go rock climbing, and due to an accident, you can save the original or the clone.  Which do you save, and does it matter?

?

Moonlit

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6059
  • +0/-0
  • The Rebound
Re: Would a clone have a soul?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2008, 07:28:54 AM »
Another question:  Your friend who saved your life once is dying, and gets cloned and has his consciousness transferred.  Before the original is destroyed, someone busts into the room and says they have a cure that will let him live in perfect health, but with a 10% of relapse.  You, him, his clone all go rock climbing, and due to an accident, you can save the original or the clone.  Which do you save, and does it matter?

That is an interesting one.  I don't know.  How would I know who the clone was and who the original was?  Would the clone have a different personality or wear something specific so that I know who is who?  It would be incredibly difficult to let one of them die either way.  I'd have to see the look on their face as they've realized I haven't chosen to save them.  That would affect me greatly.
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?