Thought Police!

  • 128 Replies
  • 11378 Views
*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2008, 12:35:50 AM »
You choose to fly a plain, and they do not want things on the plane, if you have something illegal on you, why the fuck are you boarding a plane?

Your car can only be searched if a policeman pulls you over for a valid reason. They can not search anything locked in your car without a warrant.
anything found in your car due to an illegal search can not be used against you.

You can only be arrested for a valid reason, anything found while searching you, if the arrest was invalid, is not admissible in court.

Of course they are going to profile you. If the majority of terrorist are muslims, why would we randomly search an elderly woman, when a young muslim man saying prayers beside the terminal is a logical choice for a search.

As for your right to refuse a search, if someone is requesting permission, say no. Just like inviting an officer into your home gives them right to search it. Know your god damn rights or lose them. When I watch videos of people getting assaulted by cops they make so many mistakes. If you wish to leave, ask the cop if you are being detained, if he say no, leave. If they want to question you about a crime, say "I have nothing to say." No one has ever talked a cop out of arresting a suspect, and anything you say is hearsay, but can be used against you.

Being ignorant of your rights, is no more an excuse than being ignorant of the laws.

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2008, 02:23:36 PM »
There is no such thing as human rights.

*

Guessed

  • 5379
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2008, 07:24:32 PM »
There is no such thing as human rights.

How so? Are there not certain things that all humans need in order to function in society. The right to be safe is one all humans have (though some don't get to excercise it) as well as the right to procreate ( which is genetic more than anything). Unless, of course, you were trolling?
Is Dino open source?

Quote from: grogberries


?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2008, 07:36:45 PM »
Unless everyone has rights, rights do not exist. They are just privileges.

*

Guessed

  • 5379
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2008, 07:38:38 PM »
Unless everyone has rights, rights do not exist. They are just privileges.

I can agree to that. Although I would still argue that sex and procreation are rights. Everyone can fuck, if they don't it is because they won't ( to speak coloquially for a moment).
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 07:43:11 PM by Guessed »
Is Dino open source?

Quote from: grogberries


*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2008, 07:43:16 PM »
Unless everyone has rights, rights do not exist. They are just privileges.

We all have rights, this is something I believe.  The thing about it is, governments of the world tend not to offer protection for those rights as they should.  We lose a bit of our rights and liberties every time we let a politician scare us into believing we need their protection.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         ---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2008, 08:14:01 PM »
Can you explain to me the difference between a right and a privilege if that is the case?

*

unclegravy

  • 957
  • I feel so fucking high!!!!!!
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2008, 09:32:41 PM »
People want to kill people all the time. Prisons would be full up doublesoon.
Hey, I read the novel too, and I did catch that reference!!!!(buckets of exclamation marks)!!!

But now the discussion has turned to something a little bit different from the original topic at hand, so I'm just going to disappea
Quote
The people who feast on exclamation marks will never go hungry agaaaain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2008, 05:24:23 AM »
Can you explain to me the difference between a right and a privilege if that is the case?

A privilege is something you need permission to have.  It is "granted" to you, such as a drivers license.  A right is pre-existing, it exists before law and government, they cannot be granted, only taken away.  The U.S. Constitution, as it was written, was meant to guarantee, and protect pre existing rights that they believed all men had, it never granted any rights, only protected them.  (Yes I realize the hypocrisy of having slaves at the time, among other things.  Also, the system is still not perfect today).

To be honest with you a right is difficult to define.  Here's a web page I found with some good descriptions.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/973633/posts

Many of these I agree with, many I don't.  I think the first two are probably my favorite.

Quote
A right is the sovereignty to act without the permission of others. The concept of a right carries with it an implicit, unstated footnote: you may exercise your rights as long as you do not violate the same rights of another?within this context, rights are an absolute.

Quote
A right is universal?meaning: it applies to all men, not just to a few. There is no such thing as a "right" for one man, or a group of men, that is not possessed by all. This means there are no special "rights" unique to women or men, blacks or white, the elderly or the young, homosexuals or heterosexuals, the rich or the poor, doctors or patients or any other group.

What is really important in the end is what it means to you.

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2008, 05:35:53 AM »
So there's basically no difference then.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2008, 05:56:27 AM »
Quote
A privilege is something you need permission to have.  It is "granted" to you, such as a drivers license.

Did you miss that?

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2008, 06:11:39 AM »
Quote
A privilege is something you need permission to have.  It is "granted" to you, such as a drivers license.

Did you miss that?
No. I missed the part where it is different from a right. Please post it.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2008, 07:01:01 AM »
Quote
A right is the sovereignty to act without the permission of others.

A privilege is something that is granted by others, such as the privilege of practicing medicine.  You need permission.

Quote
A right is pre-existing

A right exists without government or law, you have them at birth.

A right is universal, applying to all people, not just a few.


?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2008, 07:14:40 AM »
What rights are universal? Tell me.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2008, 07:22:08 AM »
What rights are universal? Tell me.

The right to live.
the right to obtain property.
the right to self defense.
the right to defend your property.
the right to start a family, find love.
the right to speak your mind, express yourself.


?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2008, 07:54:23 AM »
Those are privileges. They are not universal.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2008, 08:03:37 AM »
Only certain people have a right to live?  Do we have to ask permission to live, or is it implied until it is taken away from you?
BTW I never said that a right cannot be taken away, this happens all the time.  Many times unjustly.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2008, 08:21:10 AM »
Only certain people have a right to live?  Do we have to ask permission to live, or is it implied until it is taken away from you?


That is the way of life, you have the privilege of living til something bigger than you decides its time you stop.

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2008, 08:22:38 AM »
If something can be taken away, it is not a right. You have admitted this yourself.

Until everyone has rights, all we have are privileges.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2008, 08:27:24 AM »
If something can be taken away, it is not a right. You have admitted this yourself.

Until everyone has rights, all we have are privileges.

No, I never said a right cannot be taken away.  That is something in common between a right an a privilege, however, there are still distinctions between them.

Quote
A privilege is something you need permission to have.  It is "granted" to you, such as a drivers license.  A right is pre-existing, it exists before law and government, they cannot be granted, only taken away.  The U.S. Constitution, as it was written, was meant to guarantee, and protect pre existing rights that they believed all men had, it never granted any rights, only protected them.  (Yes I realize the hypocrisy of having slaves at the time, among other things.  Also, the system is still not perfect today).

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2008, 08:35:48 AM »
The right to live is granted then. If your parents didn't do the act, you wouldn't be here.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2008, 08:42:42 AM »
The right to live is granted then. If your parents didn't do the act, you wouldn't be here.

Ah yes but granted by whom?  According to the founding fathers of the U.S., it is given to you by your creator.  By some that is god, or as you put it, parents.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ? That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ? That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The Bill of Rights protects pre-existing rights, given to you by your creator, it does not grant any privileges to the people. 

What I meant by rights not being granted is: They are not granted by a governing body, they existed before governing bodies.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 08:45:36 AM by ragnarr »

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2008, 08:57:22 AM »
The right to live is granted then. If your parents didn't do the act, you wouldn't be here.

Ah yes but granted by whom?  According to the founding fathers of the U.S., it is given to you by your creator.  By some that is god, or as you put it, parents.

From the Declaration of Independence:


No matter who it is granted by, it is granted. Hence privelage.

/thread

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2008, 10:01:02 AM »
Stop arguing semantics.  Another way to put the definition is:  Rights you have at birth (or creation) privileges are granted later.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2008, 10:02:27 AM »
Stop arguing semantics.  Another way to put the definition is:  Rights you have at birth (or creation) privileges are granted later.

This debate is one that can only be argued with semantics. When you ask if people have rights, defining what a right is, is pretty damn important. Especially when the opposition says people do not have rights at all.

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2008, 10:11:51 AM »
Stop arguing semantics.  Another way to put the definition is:  Rights you have at birth (or creation) privileges are granted later.
Do you have evidence that people are born with these "rights"?

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2008, 10:37:35 AM »
Stop arguing semantics.  Another way to put the definition is:  Rights you have at birth (or creation) privileges are granted later.

This debate is one that can only be argued with semantics. When you ask if people have rights, defining what a right is, is pretty damn important. Especially when the opposition says people do not have rights at all.

I thought the opposition was saying that a right is the same thing as a privilege.  I am saying there is a difference.  As for whether we have rights at all, that depends on what rights any particular government chooses to protect, and which ones they strip away.

Quote
Do you have evidence that people are born with these "rights"?

Rights are a philosophical idea, that have basis in law.  Depending on your beliefs, they may be different.  The US government was founded on the idea that we are created equal.  Obviously your idea is quite different, I don't like to think of needing permission before I am allowed to survive.

Alone in a wilderness, the concept of a right would never occur to you, even though in such isolation you have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In this solitude, you would be free to take the actions needed to sustain your life: hunt for food, grow crops, build a shelter and so on. If a hundred new settlers suddenly arrive in your area and establish a community, you do not gain any additional rights by living in such a society nor do you lose any; you simply retain the same rights you possessed when you were alone.

You cannot prove an idea, the definitions and descriptions I am providing are how it is understood in English.

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2008, 10:39:59 AM »
Suffice it to say, we all need permission to be allowed to survive...

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2008, 10:41:07 AM »
Suffice it to say, we all need permission to be allowed to survive...

from whom?  I have never asked for anybodies permission in order for me to keep living.

?

Cheryl Wiesbaden

  • 603
  • Zeteticist, Moralist, Feminist
Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2008, 10:52:42 AM »
That is because you are privileged. Others do not have that luxury.