Thought Police!

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The One True Rat

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Thought Police!
« on: December 16, 2008, 06:40:27 PM »
i heard from a not-so-reliable source that the US airport security department (or whatever it is) is currently researching new technology that will anylize the brainwaves of an individual to detect malicious thoughts.
aparently, the brain emits different signals when nervous or stressed so this might actually work.

i think that this is one step closer to thought police and pre-crime!!! sure, the machine does not read your thoughts but in 20 years those things will likely be fairly close. for that reason, i may be agianst it.

anyone for government thought checking? against? dont care as long as you get an in-flight movie?

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Raist

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 06:43:12 PM »
People want to kill people all the time. Prisons would be full up doublesoon.

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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2008, 06:46:49 PM »
There is no way you can possibly prosecute someone for thinking about a crime. Thought does not equal action. At least that's the way I look at it. Also, Raist raises a valid point.
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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 06:53:01 PM »
well they wouldnt haul you off for a thought, it would just be a cause for investigation.

BUT, what if they found a brainwave that resulted in murder 100% of the time?

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Raist

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 06:54:34 PM »
well they wouldnt haul you off for a thought, it would just be a cause for investigation.

BUT, what if they found a brainwave that resulted in murder 100% of the time?

There's no brainwave. Only enough adrenaline and other anger causing hormones they override the part of your brain that considers consequences. Then you have to think, shouldn't we just load sadists up and put them away. Someone that can squish a puppy, is not a normal person, and is much more capable of killing than a person that is revolted by the act.

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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 06:55:06 PM »
There is no way you can possibly prosecute someone for thinking about a crime. Thought does not equal action. At least that's the way I look at it. Also, Raist raises a valid point.
to some people thoughts are almost synonymous with actions.
i have heard that many women believe that the thought of cheating in a relationship or fantasizing of another person is cheating itself.

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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 06:57:03 PM »
well they wouldnt haul you off for a thought, it would just be a cause for investigation.

BUT, what if they found a brainwave that resulted in murder 100% of the time?

There's no brainwave. Only enough adrenaline and other anger causing hormones they override the part of your brain that considers consequences. Then you have to think, shouldn't we just load sadists up and put them away. Someone that can squish a puppy, is not a normal person, and is much more capable of killing than a person that is revolted by the act.
the brain does exibit activity that can be measured, waves may have been a poor word on my part.
and it isnt to weed out the people who are capable of crime, it is for those that are specifically planning a malicious event intentionally.

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Raist

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2008, 06:59:04 PM »
Lots of people want to do crimes but are psychologically incapable based on social conditioning and lack of desperation. I say it is unfair to jail everyone. Lets just jail those that are capable of breaking laws. We'll put people in mental institutions if they are a great enough risk, lets just move the line a little.

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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2008, 07:01:11 PM »
well they wouldnt haul you off for a thought, it would just be a cause for investigation.

BUT, what if they found a brainwave that resulted in murder 100% of the time?

If it's cause for investigation then all we're doing is wasting money investigating people for thinking (I'll avoid invoking Godwin's law here) and even if they investigated and found something, there is no way that thought can be admissable as evidence, there's too many variables.

Even if they found said "brainwave", it would not be admissable in court either, in my opinion, because of two factors. Firstly, no human technology is perfect so the detection of this wave may or may not be accurate, which means people will be jailed for thoughts that may or may not have even occured to them. Secondly the opportunity for bias in thought observation is too great for it to be feasbile.  
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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 07:02:23 PM »
There is no way you can possibly prosecute someone for thinking about a crime. Thought does not equal action. At least that's the way I look at it. Also, Raist raises a valid point.
to some people thoughts are almost synonymous with actions.
i have heard that many women believe that the thought of cheating in a relationship or fantasizing of another person is cheating itself.

Perhaps to some people, but not to the eyes of the law. There is no way to prove they were ever going to act on said crime (see my previous post).
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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 07:04:22 PM »
Lots of people want to do crimes but are psychologically incapable based on social conditioning and lack of desperation. I say it is unfair to jail everyone. Lets just jail those that are capable of breaking laws. We'll put people in mental institutions if they are a great enough risk, lets just move the line a little.
i think that every human being is capeable of breaking a law, given the right circumstances.
and wanting to commit a crime is different than say, planning to put the pieces of his body under the floorboards.

it would be like pre-meditation pre-detection
well they wouldnt haul you off for a thought, it would just be a cause for investigation.

BUT, what if they found a brainwave that resulted in murder 100% of the time?

If it's cause for investigation then all we're doing is wasting money investigating people for thinking (I'll avoid invoking Godwin's law here) and even if they investigated and found something, there is no way that thought can be admissable as evidence, there's too many variables.

Even if they found said "brainwave", it would not be admissable in court either, in my opinion, because of two factors. Firstly, no human technology is perfect so the detection of this wave may or may not be accurate, which means people will be jailed for thoughts that may or may not have even occured to them. Secondly the opportunity for bias in thought observation is too great for it to be feasbile.  
my question is what if they did single out a brainwave that upon observation, would always occur in murder? or lets say 95%.

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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 07:09:31 PM »
Lots of people want to do crimes but are psychologically incapable based on social conditioning and lack of desperation. I say it is unfair to jail everyone. Lets just jail those that are capable of breaking laws. We'll put people in mental institutions if they are a great enough risk, lets just move the line a little.
i think that every human being is capeable of breaking a law, given the right circumstances.
and wanting to commit a crime is different than say, planning to put the pieces of his body under the floorboards.

it would be like pre-meditation pre-detection
well they wouldnt haul you off for a thought, it would just be a cause for investigation.

BUT, what if they found a brainwave that resulted in murder 100% of the time?

If it's cause for investigation then all we're doing is wasting money investigating people for thinking (I'll avoid invoking Godwin's law here) and even if they investigated and found something, there is no way that thought can be admissable as evidence, there's too many variables.

Even if they found said "brainwave", it would not be admissable in court either, in my opinion, because of two factors. Firstly, no human technology is perfect so the detection of this wave may or may not be accurate, which means people will be jailed for thoughts that may or may not have even occured to them. Secondly the opportunity for bias in thought observation is too great for it to be feasbile.  
my question is what if they did single out a brainwave that upon observation, would always occur in murder? or lets say 95%.

IF they did, then it would be an effective tool indeed. The problem is that the human mind has too many variables, so they can't ever make the odds that large. Even if they did manage to accomplish this task, it does not rule out the inherent biases and descrepancies that analyzing inmaterial things inevitably carries.
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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 07:13:30 PM »
it may be that computers cannot see into the human mind very well now, but twenty years ago computers couldnt do hardly anything.
twenty years from now may be a possibility.

also, they are not looking into the mind. that may always remain impossible. they simply examine physical events such as bioelectricity and chemical imbalances that occur in the brain.

we have some very interesting years ahead if this technology gets enough funding.

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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 07:16:58 PM »
it may be that computers cannot see into the human mind very well now, but twenty years ago computers couldnt do hardly anything.
twenty years from now may be a possibility.

also, they are not looking into the mind. that may always remain impossible. they simply examine physical events such as bioelectricity and chemical imbalances that occur in the brain.

we have some very interesting years ahead if this technology gets enough funding.

Perhaps in 20 years the technology will be available. However, chemical imbalances do not always lead to action. Pre-emptive investigation on thoughts that may or may not come to fruition are not just a bad idea, but dangerous to the fabric of society (to speak coloquially a moment).

Regardless, it will be interesting indeed. 
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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 07:20:58 PM »
what do you think of other pre-crime techniques used both now and in science fiction movies?

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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2008, 07:28:05 PM »
what do you think of other pre-crime techniques used both now and in science fiction movies?

I'm not overly familiar with pre-crime techniques being used now (perhaps I'm just unclear what you mean?) But as for science fiction, the only remotely feasible system I've seen is in minority report, strictly because they had proof that people would kill. Of course, even that system is flawed horribly.
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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2008, 07:32:16 PM »
what do you think of other pre-crime techniques used both now and in science fiction movies?

I'm not overly familiar with pre-crime techniques being used now (perhaps I'm just unclear what you mean?) But as for science fiction, the only remotely feasible system I've seen is in minority report, strictly because they had proof that people would kill. Of course, even that system is flawed horribly.

that movie made me lol, because the act of preventing the acts proves that the acts may not happen.
also, for an example of current pre-crime:
there was a sixteen year old kid who was arrested for owning a "hit list" that detailed his targets from school in a thought-out attack. he was hauled off to juvi last year i believe.

also, drug dealers can get hit with an "intent to sell" charge without ever having sold anything.

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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2008, 07:39:00 PM »
what do you think of other pre-crime techniques used both now and in science fiction movies?

I'm not overly familiar with pre-crime techniques being used now (perhaps I'm just unclear what you mean?) But as for science fiction, the only remotely feasible system I've seen is in minority report, strictly because they had proof that people would kill. Of course, even that system is flawed horribly.

that movie made me lol, because the act of preventing the acts proves that the acts may not happen.
also, for an example of current pre-crime:
there was a sixteen year old kid who was arrested for owning a "hit list" that detailed his targets from school in a thought-out attack. he was hauled off to juvi last year i believe.

also, drug dealers can get hit with an "intent to sell" charge without ever having sold anything.

Unless they could connect the kid to weapon there is no reason to arrest him (btw, did they find weapons, or just a list?), because there is no way to prove he would'nt pussy out and not do it if he doesn't have weapons, and even if he does, the case is still tenuous at best.. As for the "intent to sell" charge, it is bogus as well. There is no possible way to prove anyone's true intent. Unless of course, the drug dealer was soliciting to someone and happened to be caught before they made their sale. That is the only conceivable way that law could be in any way just.
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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2008, 07:45:31 PM »
in the united states, you can get into serious problems for having a hit list, even if you own no weapons.
none were found on the kid, but his sentence was not too bad. mandatory counciling definately.

and as for intent to sell, they usually base it off of how much of the drug you own. If there are several dozen crates of cocain in your basement, they are probable going to say you were planning on selling the stuff.

also, intent can be the difference from manslaughter and murder.
it does seem bogus, but intent and actions are very legally linked, at least in the US.

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 07:50:11 PM »
in the united states, you can get into serious problems for having a hit list, even if you own no weapons.
none were found on the kid, but his sentence was not too bad. mandatory counciling definately.

and as for intent to sell, they usually base it off of how much of the drug you own. If there are several dozen crates of cocain in your basement, they are probable going to say you were planning on selling the stuff.

also, intent can be the difference from manslaughter and murder.
it does seem bogus, but intent and actions are very legally linked, at least in the US.

Fair enough, I believe they're linked in Canada as well, but it doesn't make it right. A hitlist does not prove you are going to kill people. If you go out and try to purchase a shitload of guns whilst owning said list then yes, it is plausible that preventative measures should be taken. However, I disagree with your crates of cocaine analogy. Simply possessing drugs does not make you a drug dealer, regardless of quanitity (in my opinion at least) attempting to sell it, would. If you're going to charge someone with "intent to sell" it's better for your case if they actually are attempting to as opposed to baseless assumptions.
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Raist

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2008, 08:01:11 PM »
I would like to add in, (might be off topic by now) the human brain isn't indecipherable out of some amazing complexity, it is like a computer that grew itself, and coded itself. They may have similar hardware, but the way they function is different enough that identifying thoughts is a LONG way off.

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Guessed

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2008, 08:07:01 PM »
I would like to add in, (might be off topic by now) the human brain isn't indecipherable out of some amazing complexity, it is like a computer that grew itself, and coded itself. They may have similar hardware, but the way they function is different enough that identifying thoughts is a LONG way off.

Not entirely off topic, actually, it helps to strengthen my argument. There are too many variables.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 07:03:28 AM »
Where would these devices be placed? at high security places like airports or everywhere like Britain's CCTV network? I'm opposed to the idea all but if they were everywhere then I would be moving the f*ck out.

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Raist

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2008, 04:59:26 PM »
Where would these devices be placed? at high security places like airports or everywhere like Britain's CCTV network? I'm opposed to the idea all but if they were everywhere then I would be moving the f*ck out.

They'd match britain's cameras nicely. In the U.S. with so much open space, and the availability of long distance, scoped, "memory device fixers" I think we would be ok.

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The One True Rat

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2008, 01:10:35 AM »
i am unfamiliar with this network... what is it?

also, they would just have scanners similar to metal detectors. Just walk through and it will beep if you are wigging out, then they do a pat down and either find nothing or find the anal detonator that is the reason for your discomfort.

and as far as processing power, silicon is catching up to the good old fashioned brain.
it already beats us in storage capacity i think...

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2008, 05:54:31 AM »
i heard from a not-so-reliable source that the US airport security department (or whatever it is) is currently researching new technology that will anylize the brainwaves of an individual to detect malicious thoughts.
aparently, the brain emits different signals when nervous or stressed so this might actually work.

i think that this is one step closer to thought police and pre-crime!!! sure, the machine does not read your thoughts but in 20 years those things will likely be fairly close. for that reason, i may be agianst it.

anyone for government thought checking? against? dont care as long as you get an in-flight movie?

In the U.S. they would definitely could not do such a thing without a warrant.  I would be opposed to the authorities violating our thoughts in order to catch us in a crime, its no different from them randomly going into your home and searching it.  However, using such technology on a suspected murderer, with a warrant, would be justifiable to me if the technology could be proven to be accurate.

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Moonlit

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 09:02:16 AM »
In the U.S. they would definitely could not do such a thing without a warrant.  I would be opposed to the authorities violating our thoughts in order to catch us in a crime, its no different from them randomly going into your home and searching it.  However, using such technology on a suspected murderer, with a warrant, would be justifiable to me if the technology could be proven to be accurate.

You can be strip searched without a warrant.  Also, don't forget we have the Patriot Act.  Privacy went out the window with that years ago.

As far as this topic goes, though:  Have you ever seen the show Most Evil?  Great show, you should watch it if you haven't.  (I'm slightly fascinated by serial killers)  In the show they do experiments with a select group of serial killers who are know to be psychopaths and also on a group of normal people.  In the experiments they show both groups pictures of something that may awaken dark thoughts in the killer and happy thoughts in the normal person.  It's amazing, though, when these killers begin to feel the urge to kill someone it looks completely different than it does when someone like you or me decides they want to kill.  They're calm, collected, and almost apathetic.  There's no way to show that they are going to kill someone.  Normal minds go off the charts with fear and anxiety before such an event. 
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2008, 10:08:32 AM »
In the U.S. they would definitely could not do such a thing without a warrant.  I would be opposed to the authorities violating our thoughts in order to catch us in a crime, its no different from them randomly going into your home and searching it.  However, using such technology on a suspected murderer, with a warrant, would be justifiable to me if the technology could be proven to be accurate.

You can be strip searched without a warrant.  Also, don't forget we have the Patriot Act.  Privacy went out the window with that years ago.

As far as this topic goes, though:  Have you ever seen the show Most Evil?  Great show, you should watch it if you haven't.  (I'm slightly fascinated by serial killers)  In the show they do experiments with a select group of serial killers who are know to be psychopaths and also on a group of normal people.  In the experiments they show both groups pictures of something that may awaken dark thoughts in the killer and happy thoughts in the normal person.  It's amazing, though, when these killers begin to feel the urge to kill someone it looks completely different than it does when someone like you or me decides they want to kill.  They're calm, collected, and almost apathetic.  There's no way to show that they are going to kill someone.  Normal minds go off the charts with fear and anxiety before such an event. 

All very true, if you are a sociopath then you would not respond in the same way as a normal person.  That is why I would only be in favor of using such a device for a criminal investigation if it can be proven to be accurate.

As for the 4th amendment.  The supreme court has ruled that it only covers areas where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy.  If it is a place where you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy (such as an open field in your back yard).  Then they certainly can search there without a warrant.  Personally I think that decision is reasonable, it would still protect you in places where privacy is expected (including your person).  However, this is violated all the time, see this video:" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">

That woman is my hero, fucking awesome.

As for the patriot act, the executive branch is "supposed to" get warrants before tapping your phone.  The Smush administration tried to skirt around that one by claiming executive power to command the military.  I believe it was shot down. 

Our government needs a process in place that allows them to gather information on terrorists that may be living within the border, however they need to do it in a way where their are better checks and balances, so as our rights are better protected.  The executive branch cannot be the decider on what is a probable cause to search.

At and airport they are allowed to search you at random as long as it does not violate your personal dignity or privacy.  For anything else, more 'reasonable suspicion' is needed.  IMO A process like that is just asking for racial profiling.  I think what they should do is detain you for 'reasonable suspicion' while they get authority (warrent) to conduct an "enhanced" search (a persons race, gender etc does not constitute a reasonable suspicion and the warrant should be rejected on such grounds).  Your luggage however, should be fair game if they see something on the x-ray machine.

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Raist

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2008, 12:52:14 AM »
At airports you have no right to privacy, because you are choosing to fly, and therefore are subject to their rules.

The only time you can be searched, is if an officer catches you in the act of a crime. (or I believe something about suspicious activity, idk).

A warrant must be obtained to search someone that is just suspected to be involved in something.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Thought Police!
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2008, 04:42:20 AM »
At airports you have no right to privacy, because you are choosing to fly, and therefore are subject to their rules.

I know, and I think it's bullshit.  The problem is that it's no difference than a British officer having a writ of assistance, which was the entire reason for the 4th amendment being guaranteed anyhow.  If a LEO has full discretion on who he/she searches then it opens the door for racial profiling.  How big of a deal is it to just detain them until you can get a warrant.  It will take longer (they may miss their flight), but I am sure a process could be put in place to speed it up.

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The only time you can be searched, is if an officer catches you in the act of a crime. (or I believe something about suspicious activity, idk).

For a misdemeanor, they must actually witness the crime in order to arrest you.  However for a felony, they only need suspicion that you committed the crime.  Once a lawful arrest has taken place they can search you without a warrant.

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A warrant must be obtained to search someone that is just suspected to be involved in something.

There are a lot of exceptions.  4th amendment only applies in places where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy.  Since your car is not one of these places.  An officer can search areas in a car where a weapon could be concealed.  With suspicion, he can search anywhere, even without a warrant.

A few other exception I have read about:

On a public school ground you can be searched without a warrant if the officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the search will result in finding evidence for illegal activity.

Government employees in a government building can be searched without a warrant for the same reasons above.

Finally, a search is reasonable if the target without coercion consents to the search, even if the target is unaware and not told about their right to refuse to cooperate.

The last one is really bullshit.  An officer should be required to inform you of your right to refuse.