A Discussion of Bendy Light

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Mind of Waste

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #180 on: September 04, 2009, 09:00:57 PM »
There are no facts to RE. Our theory is better because no magical superforce is required to explain why we don't drift away.

So gravity doesn't exist but gravitation does?  Can you explain the difference and explain gravitation more so than we can explain gravity?

Please read the gravity sticky.

There are no facts to RE. Our theory is better because no magical superforce is required to explain why we don't drift away.
You mean like bendy light, UA, DE, celestial gears, and sky mirrors?

Bendy light is possible in both RE and FE, it just occurs more in FE. The UA/DE (They're just two names for exactly the same thing) also occurs in RE as well, I don't follow the celestial gears theory, and I've never ever heard of sky mirrors.
Light does not bend in RET. If passing through different mediums, light will change speed, changing its apparent angle to the normal. It can look smooth if there is a gradient index-of-refraction. This cannot work in multiple directions from multiple points. Space can be bent forming a curved geodesic, which light will follow (the photons themselves still travels in a straight line).

If light doesn't bend in FET, explain our use of gravitational lensing?  In FET gravity bends even light, which is how we explain why we can't see black holes themselves.

lolwut?

Do you know what gravitational lensing is?  Edit:  Here you go: http://www.answers.com/topic/gravitational-lens
Edit #2:  Notice how Einstein predicted gravitational lenses.  I hope this stops FE'ers who say he's always right from calling this stupid.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 09:03:38 PM by Mind of Waste »
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Euclid

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #181 on: September 04, 2009, 09:03:21 PM »
There are no facts to RE. Our theory is better because no magical superforce is required to explain why we don't drift away.

So gravity doesn't exist but gravitation does?  Can you explain the difference and explain gravitation more so than we can explain gravity?

Please read the gravity sticky.

There are no facts to RE. Our theory is better because no magical superforce is required to explain why we don't drift away.
You mean like bendy light, UA, DE, celestial gears, and sky mirrors?

Bendy light is possible in both RE and FE, it just occurs more in FE. The UA/DE (They're just two names for exactly the same thing) also occurs in RE as well, I don't follow the celestial gears theory, and I've never ever heard of sky mirrors.
Light does not bend in RET. If passing through different mediums, light will change speed, changing its apparent angle to the normal. It can look smooth if there is a gradient index-of-refraction. This cannot work in multiple directions from multiple points. Space can be bent forming a curved geodesic, which light will follow (the photons themselves still travels in a straight line).

If light doesn't bend in FET, explain our use of gravitational lensing?  In FET gravity bends even light, which is how we explain why we can't see black holes themselves.

lolwut?

Do you know what gravitational lensing is?  Edit:  Here you go: http://www.answers.com/topic/gravitational-lens

Please reread your original statement.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Mind of Waste

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #182 on: September 04, 2009, 09:06:19 PM »
There are no facts to RE. Our theory is better because no magical superforce is required to explain why we don't drift away.

So gravity doesn't exist but gravitation does?  Can you explain the difference and explain gravitation more so than we can explain gravity?

The blackhole part was a pointless thing I threw in there for kicks.  The part about gravitational lensing is the cake.
Please read the gravity sticky.

There are no facts to RE. Our theory is better because no magical superforce is required to explain why we don't drift away.
You mean like bendy light, UA, DE, celestial gears, and sky mirrors?

Bendy light is possible in both RE and FE, it just occurs more in FE. The UA/DE (They're just two names for exactly the same thing) also occurs in RE as well, I don't follow the celestial gears theory, and I've never ever heard of sky mirrors.
Light does not bend in RET. If passing through different mediums, light will change speed, changing its apparent angle to the normal. It can look smooth if there is a gradient index-of-refraction. This cannot work in multiple directions from multiple points. Space can be bent forming a curved geodesic, which light will follow (the photons themselves still travels in a straight line).

If light doesn't bend in FET, explain our use of gravitational lensing?  In FET gravity bends even light, which is how we explain why we can't see black holes themselves.

lolwut?

Do you know what gravitational lensing is?  Edit:  Here you go: http://www.answers.com/topic/gravitational-lens

Please reread your original statement.
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Mind of Waste

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #183 on: September 04, 2009, 09:09:30 PM »
My bad on the "FET" typo.  Now let's continue this, shall we?
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Euclid

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #184 on: September 04, 2009, 09:16:28 PM »
I don't agree that light doesn't bend in RET.  Did you read the sticky?
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Mind of Waste

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #185 on: September 04, 2009, 09:19:55 PM »
I don't agree that light doesn't bend in RET.  Did you read the sticky?

If you look at the quotes, the bit about light bending was in response to Perfect Circle, not you.
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Euclid

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #186 on: September 04, 2009, 09:28:46 PM »
I don't agree that light doesn't bend in RET.  Did you read the sticky?

If you look at the quotes, the bit about light bending was in response to Perfect Circle, not you.

I agree with that statement.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Mind of Waste

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #187 on: September 04, 2009, 09:31:33 PM »
I don't agree that light doesn't bend in RET.  Did you read the sticky?

If you look at the quotes, the bit about light bending was in response to Perfect Circle, not you.

I agree with that statement.

Sweet.  I think this is the first time someone hasn't outright argued with everything in one of my posts.  (me being a believer of RET)
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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #188 on: September 05, 2009, 03:51:35 AM »
Uh... I never said they start out perfectly horizontal. When you have learned to read what people actually write in their posts, feel free to come back and contribute.

I'm sorry, I assumed you understood EA theory. You said:

According to the bendy light theory, the beam will deviate away from horizontal more and more for each unit of distance travelled.

This statement only applies to light which is horizontal or travelling up.

So this is at direct odds to the information I was given by flatters in the thread about how sunlight illuminates the underside of clouds... are you now saying that light travelling slightly downwards will go in a straight line? And that if light is slightly away from horizontal it will not bend up?

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Parsifal

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #189 on: September 05, 2009, 04:14:41 AM »
So this is at direct odds to the information I was given by flatters in the thread about how sunlight illuminates the underside of clouds... are you now saying that light travelling slightly downwards will go in a straight line? And that if light is slightly away from horizontal it will not bend up?

No, it still bends up unless it's travelling vertically. However, when a light ray is travelling down, an upward bend brings it closer to horizontal. I thought this was obvious.
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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #190 on: September 05, 2009, 05:02:14 AM »
So this is at direct odds to the information I was given by flatters in the thread about how sunlight illuminates the underside of clouds... are you now saying that light travelling slightly downwards will go in a straight line? And that if light is slightly away from horizontal it will not bend up?

No, it still bends up unless it's travelling vertically. However, when a light ray is travelling down, an upward bend brings it closer to horizontal. I thought this was obvious.

It is, it's just a misunderstanding over wording. I thought you were implying something else, but I see what you mean now.
Have you got your head around why they can't follow the same path yet?

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Parsifal

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #191 on: September 05, 2009, 05:05:42 AM »
Have you got your head around why they can't follow the same path yet?

No.
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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #192 on: September 05, 2009, 05:37:05 AM »
OK here's a diagram then.



According to BLT, to get a beam to travel from one tower to another at the same altitude you will have to aim it slightly downwards to compensate for the light bending itself upwards as it nears its destination. The red beam here is travelling from left to right - it starts off almost as a straight line but gradually gains increasing curvature as it travels, in accordance with BLT.
The green beam is travelling in the opposite direction, from right to left, and follows the exact same type of curvature, i.e. one that increases with distance travelled.
As you can clearly see now I have got off my arse and drawn it for you, the lines do not follow the same path. They coincide at three points - the origin, midpoint and destination. Anywhere else along the beam they are following different paths.
The only way two curved beams could follow the same path if travelling in opposite directions is if their angle of curvature stayed the same along the entire direction of travel, that is, if they were sections of a circle rather than a piece of parabola. But that is not what BLT says. BLT feels the need to account for an absence of curvature at the start of the beam, hence the curve cannot be part of a circle.

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Parsifal

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #193 on: September 05, 2009, 05:44:31 AM »
The two curves you have drawn are not symmetrical about a vertical line intersecting them at the points where they are horizontal. However, this would need to be a fundamental part of any plausible theory involving curved light, because it doesn't matter in which direction you send a light ray, it should be expected to behave the same way.

Rather, your curves are very gradual on one side of the vertex and much more substantial on the other. It has always been a fundamental requirement of EA theory that there must be symmetry about this point.
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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #194 on: September 05, 2009, 05:50:33 AM »
The two curves you have drawn are not symmetrical about a vertical line intersecting them at the points where they are horizontal. However, this would need to be a fundamental part of any plausible theory involving curved light, because it doesn't matter in which direction you send a light ray, it should be expected to behave the same way.

Rather, your curves are very gradual on one side of the vertex and much more substantial on the other. It has always been a fundamental requirement of EA theory that there must be symmetry about this point.

What? You have sort of lost me there. Are you saying my drawing is asymmetrical, because I beg to differ if that is what you mean.
If what you mean is that from the midpoint the curve of the beam should be a mirror image of itself, then that implies a constant curvature, i.e. a section of circle, which is not in accordance with the BLT put forward in this forum.
I may be misunderstanding you here so I request you give me a diagram of the path taken by a single light beam, so I may see where my diagram goes wrong.

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Parsifal

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #195 on: September 05, 2009, 06:10:36 AM »
What? You have sort of lost me there. Are you saying my drawing is asymmetrical, because I beg to differ if that is what you mean.

Your drawing is only symmetrical because you have two light rays in it, one of which is the reverse of the other. Neither ray on its own is symmetrical.

If what you mean is that from the midpoint the curve of the beam should be a mirror image of itself, then that implies a constant curvature, i.e. a section of circle, which is not in accordance with the BLT put forward in this forum.

Uh, no it doesn't. Lots of natural shapes, most notably conics, exhibit this form of symmetry, such as ellipses, parabolas and hyperbolas, as well as many simple polynomials and the hyperbolic cosine function - and, most pertinently to our discussion, curves of the form y = Ax4/3.

I may be misunderstanding you here so I request you give me a diagram of the path taken by a single light beam, so I may see where my diagram goes wrong.

Here is a crude, but sufficient, diagram:



The solid line is a light ray, the broken lines are imaginary straight lines to illustrate a point. O represents the point at which the light ray is horizontal. What I mean by "symmetrical about the vertex" is that AM = BM, no matter what the lengths of the light ray or OM.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 06:12:09 AM by Robosteve »
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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #196 on: September 05, 2009, 08:47:27 AM »
That line you have there is a section of a circle. I just doodled around with it in Photoshop so I can tell. The rate of curvature is constant and if the line continued it would eventually join up with itself.
A parabola shape would not work for bendy light in this context, because it was a parabolic section that I used in my diagram, and you said that was wrong.
What you are describing here is at odds with what has been opined many times on this forum - that the actual amount of curvature is less at the beginning of the beam. Kepler seems very keen on this idea. It is also at odds with the idea that light travelling vertically does not bend, so one can then definitively state that light approaching verticality has less curve than that travelling more horizontally. Again, this jars with your diagram.

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Parsifal

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #197 on: September 05, 2009, 09:30:37 AM »
That line you have there is a section of a circle. I just doodled around with it in Photoshop so I can tell. The rate of curvature is constant and if the line continued it would eventually join up with itself.

That line was drawn in Inkscape and wasn't really intended to be any particular shape (purely for illustration purposes), but here is a parabola illustrating the same thing, drawn in Lybniz (steepness exaggerated for effect, but it is still a parabola):



I hope you can see that this shape is symmetrical in the same sense as my previous diagram.

A parabola shape would not work for bendy light in this context, because it was a parabolic section that I used in my diagram, and you said that was wrong.

You didn't use a parabola in your diagram, at least not a vertical one. Parabolas are symmetrical.

To see this, note that the general cartesian equation of a parabola with its vertex on the y-axis is y(x) = Ax2 + C. Then:

y(-x) = A(-x)2 + C
         = Ax2 + C        [because (-x)2 = (-1)2 * x2 = x2]
         = y(x)

So the function value at any point on the curve is the same as that corresponding to the same distance to the other side of the vertex, or alternatively, the parabola is mirrored in the y-axis.

What you are describing here is at odds with what has been opined many times on this forum - that the actual amount of curvature is less at the beginning of the beam.

I don't think I have ever seen that idea put forth, and it is certainly not part of the original EA theory. A light ray will curve the same way regardless of how long it has been travelling for.

It is also at odds with the idea that light travelling vertically does not bend, so one can then definitively state that light approaching verticality has less curve than that travelling more horizontally. Again, this jars with your diagram.

No it doesn't, because the whole of my first diagram was very close to horizontal. See my next diagram earlier in this post for more detail on how such an effect might look.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 09:50:14 AM by Robosteve »
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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #198 on: September 05, 2009, 10:54:20 AM »

You didn't use a parabola in your diagram, at least not a vertical one. Parabolas are symmetrical.

I don't think I have ever seen that idea put forth, and it is certainly not part of the original EA theory. A light ray will curve the same way regardless of how long it has been travelling for.


Actually I did use part of a parabola in my diagram, but it is laid at an angle.

I must have gained that impression from some of the posts elsewhere on the forum that some people (Kepler springs to mind, but I'm beginning to think he's a secret Roundie who is trying to bring the flatters down from within) thought bendy light behaves like that. I accept you think it doesn't. However given the variation in theories found on this forum over almost everything else, I expect there are some people who think it does do that. Trying to work out what the collective flatter view of anything is from the posts on here is like trying to assemble the skeleton of an unknown animal from a random box of bones.

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Johannes

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #199 on: September 05, 2009, 01:41:53 PM »
Light isn't being bent as much in the beginning of it's path - thats true. The 2nd derivative of a parabola is positive, so the bending increases as the light ray travels forward (along x). The farther you go, the more light bends...

f(x)=x^2

dy/dx = 2x

dy^2/dx^2 = 2

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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #200 on: September 05, 2009, 01:53:58 PM »
Light isn't being bent as much in the beginning of it's path - thats true. The 2nd derivative of a parabola is positive, so the bending increases as the light ray travels forward (along x). The farther you go, the more light bends...

f(x)=x^2

dy/dx = 2x

dy^2/dx^2 = 2

Look Robosteve, another flatter disagreeing with you! Kill! Kill!

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #201 on: September 05, 2009, 02:03:06 PM »
Light isn't being bent as much in the beginning of it's path - thats true. The 2nd derivative of a parabola is positive, so the bending increases as the light ray travels forward (along x). The farther you go, the more light bends...

f(x)=x^2

dy/dx = 2x

dy^2/dx^2 = 2

Look Robosteve, another flatter disagreeing with you! Kill! Kill!
Please keep this kind of low content posting out of the serious fora.

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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #202 on: September 05, 2009, 02:07:16 PM »
Light isn't being bent as much in the beginning of it's path - thats true. The 2nd derivative of a parabola is positive, so the bending increases as the light ray travels forward (along x). The farther you go, the more light bends...

f(x)=x^2

dy/dx = 2x

dy^2/dx^2 = 2

Look Robosteve, another flatter disagreeing with you! Kill! Kill!
Please keep this kind of low content posting out of the serious fora.

I think it's actually pertinent to the most recent posts, Waste. Regardless of that you don't like the exact language, the point it makes is clear.

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Johannes

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #203 on: September 05, 2009, 02:13:27 PM »
Light isn't being bent as much in the beginning of it's path - thats true. The 2nd derivative of a parabola is positive, so the bending increases as the light ray travels forward (along x). The farther you go, the more light bends...

f(x)=x^2

dy/dx = 2x

dy^2/dx^2 = 2

Look Robosteve, another flatter disagreeing with you! Kill! Kill!
Please keep this kind of low content posting out of the serious fora.

I think it's actually pertinent to the most recent posts, Waste. Regardless of that you don't like the exact language, the point it makes is clear.
No it wasn't

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KatiePipkin

Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #204 on: September 05, 2009, 02:20:49 PM »
I don't think I have ever seen that idea put forth

And two posts later, there it is put forth, by Kepler, as I had suggested.

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Parsifal

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #205 on: September 05, 2009, 05:45:03 PM »
I don't think I have ever seen that idea put forth

And two posts later, there it is put forth, by Kepler, as I had suggested.

No, he didn't put forth the point you think he did, he just worded it badly. What he meant is that the cumulative bending effect (i.e. the change in gradient) gets larger over time, not the rate of bending. He agrees with me that, for a parabola, the second derivative is constant:

dy^2/dx^2 = 2

That is to say, the rate of change of gradient is constant with respect to horizontal distance travelled everywhere along the curve. This is not the same as a circle, where the rate of change of angle to the horizontal is constant with respect to distance travelled by the light ray. Regardless, it does not depend on where the light ray was emitted or where it is going to.

Although, I might also add that in light of more recent calculations, a parabola is a poor approximation to the shape light takes. In actuality, it is a curve which, on large scales, is approximately of the form y = Ax4/3, which has a second derivative of the form dy2/d2x = Bx-2/3, which means that the greatest curvature is seen where the curve is closest to horizontal (although the actual expression is significantly more complicated and I haven't fully analysed it yet; this is just an approximation that works on large scales).
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zork

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #206 on: September 11, 2009, 04:24:48 AM »
I don't compare them.
Then what are you comparing the second laser to?

 I don't get your enthusiasm about comparing lasers. I said I have one laser and the beam reflects back to it's starting point and I lift it then by 5 degree. What is the fuzz about comparing lasers?

And how it can have incident and reflection angle being zero at the destination.
By striking a reflecting surface perpendicular to its direction of propagation.
If light curves then it means that it changes direction. If it changes direction then there is no way it can go back and forth as with the straight light.

And I really like to see drawing how you get the angles like measured(5, 90, 85) with your bendy light where you have increasing gradient in the end. In both, first arrival at the destination and then the reflected back light.



 I don't see that you can get correct angles with this kind of drawing. There is 90 with something and some less thant 85 on your deformed triangle. And it's gonna be more deformed if you reflect back because reflecting angle isn't 5 degree anymore but something else.

 And at last, as there is no any experiment or evidence for bendy light but only bendy light which acts exactly the same way as the currently known straight light then there is no bendy light but just a light which acts exactly as straight light would act.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Parsifal

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #207 on: September 11, 2009, 04:34:23 AM »
I don't get your enthusiasm about comparing lasers. I said I have one laser and the beam reflects back to it's starting point and I lift it then by 5 degree. What is the fuzz about comparing lasers?

Then you're comparing the laser in its second position to how it behaved in the first position.

If light curves then it means that it changes direction. If it changes direction then there is no way it can go back and forth as with the straight light.

Um, yes it can.

I don't see that you can get correct angles with this kind of drawing. There is 90 with something and some less thant 85 on your deformed triangle. And it's gonna be more deformed if you reflect back because reflecting angle isn't 5 degree anymore but something else.

Not necessarily. The relevant calculations would need to be done when EA theory is completed.

And at last, as there is no any experiment or evidence for bendy light but only bendy light which acts exactly the same way as the currently known straight light then there is no bendy light but just a light which acts exactly as straight light would act.

 ???
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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zork

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #208 on: September 11, 2009, 07:02:38 AM »
I don't get your enthusiasm about comparing lasers. I said I have one laser and the beam reflects back to it's starting point and I lift it then by 5 degree. What is the fuzz about comparing lasers?

Then you're comparing the laser in its second position to how it behaved in the first position.

 No, I just do triangle and measure the angles. There is nothing to compare. I still don't get the importance of the comparing from your side.

If light curves then it means that it changes direction. If it changes direction then there is no way it can go back and forth as with the straight light.
Um, yes it can.
How? If you start with the position 1 then at destination your light direction would be 2 and at last if you go far enough you go straight up as 3. And if your light ahs direction as in 2 then you can't have incident angle zero.


I don't see that you can get correct angles with this kind of drawing. There is 90 with something and some less than 85 on your deformed triangle. And it's gonna be more deformed if you reflect back because reflecting angle isn't 5 degree anymore but something else.

Not necessarily. The relevant calculations would need to be done when EA theory is completed.

  "Not necessarily" isn't enough. I really want to know how you get 90 degree(incident and reflection zero) angle at the destination with the bendy light. It's definitely not 90 on your deformed triangle.

And at last, as there is no any experiment or evidence for bendy light but only bendy light which acts exactly the same way as the currently known straight light then there is no bendy light but just a light which acts exactly as straight light would act.

 ???
Shortly, your bendy light acts exactly as straight light, so, it is straight light. You have no experiments or observations to show otherwise.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Crustinator

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Re: A Discussion of Bendy Light
« Reply #209 on: September 11, 2009, 07:22:01 AM »
The relevant calculations would need to be done when EA theory is completed.

Good luck with that. Post back here when you're done.