Rowbotham's derivation of Pi

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Panel Beater

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Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« on: December 08, 2008, 05:47:28 PM »
Late last night I was reading through "Earth Not a Globe", and I came across this passage:

(End of CHAPTER IV: THE TRUE FORM AND MAGNITUDE OF THE EARTH. Page 98)
Quote
...would make the total radius of the earth, from the northern centre to the farthest known southern circumference, to be 5224 statute miles. Thus from purely practical data, setting all theories aside, it is ascertained that the diameter of the earth, from the Ross Mountains, or from the volcanic mountains of which Mount Erebus is the chief, to the same radius distance on the opposite side of the northern centre, is more than 10,400 miles; and the circumference, 52,800 statute miles.

The circumference (P) of a circle of radius (r) is given by the equation (P)=2(pi)(r). Hence (pi)=(P)/(2(r)). Plug in the values (P)=52,800 and (r)=5,224 we get:

(pi) = 52800/(2*5224) = 5.05359...

On reading this last night I was infuriated, but by morning I remembered the fact that Rowbotham was employing a Zetetic method and hence could not rely on a given value for pi but had to come up with his own.

Can anybody tell me how he could have come up with such a high value for pi?

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Perfect Circle

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 05:55:33 PM »
Can anybody tell me how he could have come up with such a high value for pi?
The same way he determined the earth is flat.

I had some questions too: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=25098.msg553548#msg553548
Of course, I never got an answer.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 07:10:58 PM by Perfect Circle »
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.

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Johannes

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 07:49:11 PM »
I am currently working to modernize FE measurements.

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markjo

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 05:16:35 AM »
I am currently working to modernize FE measurements.

From a careful and rigorous survey, no doubt.
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Edtharan

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 05:21:39 AM »
I am currently working to modernize FE measurements.
So you agree that Rowbotham's data is incorrect?
Everyday household experimentation.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2008, 05:30:58 AM »
Do you agree that Newton was incorrect?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Edtharan

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2008, 06:21:13 AM »
Do you agree that Newton was incorrect?
Yes. And that Einstein is more correct (and probably still slightly wrong).

This is the point of the Scientific Method. Science is not trying to specify the Laws by which the universe operate, it is trying to describe how we see the universe operate. What science does is come up with a model that describe the phenomena that we observe in a way that we can use to predict what will occur in similar situations, or situations based on the original phenomena.

As we are able to make more accurate observations, we encounter differences between the currently accepted model and the observations. The model is then changed, or abandoned and replaced with a more accurate one.

This is why scientists spend so much of their time trying to disprove everything. IF they can disprove the model, then the new, more accurate model can be constructed and we cna use that new model to make new predictions.

It is only when a model can not be disproved does it get called a Law. But, even these "Laws" are still subject to disproof and if they do get disproven then the scientist in question is usually set to become quite famous.

More scientists have won the Nobel prize for their disprovals than they have for proving and existing theory correct.

This is an important point. Science is not against a Flat Earth Theory, except that any model of a Flat Earth that has been proposed has been shown not to match to observations, that is they keep getting disproved. If a Flat Earth model were to be proposed that disproved a Round Earth, then the person who developed it would become the most famous person in history, and pretty much every scientist would be celebrating this momentous discovery.

However, RET has not yet been disproven, and all prediction made from it match all experiment that is performed. And this is not for lack of trying.

As a case in point. Rowbotham's derivation of Pi cn be checked by making a circle with a known radius, and then directly measuring the diameter. If the measurements match the prediction of the calculations using Rowbotham's value for Pi, then we can conclude that his value is more accurate. However, if the measurements do not match up with his value, then we can say that the predictions based on his theory of Pi are wrong and therefore his theory of the value of Pi is also wrong.

As Rowbotham's value for Pi is different to the accepted value for Pi, then this is easily checked. Very accurate measurements of circles (use for manufacturing) show that the accepted value for Pi is correct, and as Rowbotham's is different, then his does not give the correct predictions, so must therefore be wrong and any calculations made using that value of Pi will also be wrong.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2008, 06:30:53 AM »
My point is simply that though theories are often superceded by more accurate theories, the value of some aspects of the original does not necessarily diminish. People still use Newtonian physics to make calculations today even though the conceptual framework of his theories has been found to be fundamentally lacking. In the same way, though many FE'ers feel FET has moved on since the time of Rowbotham, they nonetheless feel that large parts of his work are still entirely relevant to the RE/FE debate.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Edtharan

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2008, 06:41:05 AM »
My point is simply that though theories are often superceded by more accurate theories, the value of some aspects of the original does not necessarily diminish. People still use Newtonian physics to make calculations today even though the conceptual framework of his theories has been found to be fundamentally lacking. In the same way, though many FE'ers feel FET has moved on since the time of Rowbotham, they nonetheless feel that large parts of his work are still entirely relevant to the RE/FE debate.
However, my experience is that when confronted with evidence that contradict these new models, they fall back to Rowbotham. Now, Rowbotham himself sated that one should not make assumptions and should consider all the data. However, if data that contradict FET is presented, they fall back and state that Rowbotham presented different data, even when their new model rejected that data from Rowbotham.

In other words, they are using Rowbotham as their fall back position, when even Rowbotham would not agree with their conclusions (based on the principals that he stated he operated by).

I suppose it is not exactly a problem with Rowbotham, but that the FEers on this site apply Ad Hoc arguments form his work.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 06:45:06 AM »
Well, that is something I'm not really in a position to discuss/debate, as I have not been here in some time. Furthermore, it is, as you say, a question of debating style rather than anything central to FET or RET.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Johannes

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 02:40:39 PM »
I am currently working to modernize FE measurements.
So you agree that Rowbotham's data is incorrect?
In this particular case Rowbotham is wrong.

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Edtharan

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 04:33:33 PM »
I am currently working to modernize FE measurements.
So you agree that Rowbotham's data is incorrect?
In this particular case Rowbotham is wrong.
And thus, any calculations that he used this value for must also be wrong. As the curvature of the Earth is one such calculation, then the "evidence" he presents against RET based on his calculations of the curvature of the Earth are also wrong. This means that his claims about the expected height displacements in his famous experiments for the RET are also wrong, and thus can not be used as evidence against RET.

Which also means that the whole discussion about the bet means that Rowbotham had to have lost, because he was making predictions based on his value for Pi, which is wrong and so his predictions were wrong.

It puts a big dent in FET (yes, it doesn't disprove it, but it should be enough to cause doubt in it, which means one can't automatically assume that the Earth is Flat)
Everyday household experimentation.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 05:44:17 PM »
And thus, any calculations that he used this value for must also be wrong. As the curvature of the Earth is one such calculation, then the "evidence" he presents against RET based on his calculations of the curvature of the Earth are also wrong. This means that his claims about the expected height displacements in his famous experiments for the RET are also wrong, and thus can not be used as evidence against RET.

Which also means that the whole discussion about the bet means that Rowbotham had to have lost, because he was making predictions based on his value for Pi, which is wrong and so his predictions were wrong.

It puts a big dent in FET (yes, it doesn't disprove it, but it should be enough to cause doubt in it, which means one can't automatically assume that the Earth is Flat)

This doesn't have anything to do with the calculation of curvature. The subject is the circumference of an FE, not the curvature of an RE.

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Perfect Circle

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 06:52:26 PM »
And thus, any calculations that he used this value for must also be wrong. As the curvature of the Earth is one such calculation, then the "evidence" he presents against RET based on his calculations of the curvature of the Earth are also wrong. This means that his claims about the expected height displacements in his famous experiments for the RET are also wrong, and thus can not be used as evidence against RET.

Which also means that the whole discussion about the bet means that Rowbotham had to have lost, because he was making predictions based on his value for Pi, which is wrong and so his predictions were wrong.

It puts a big dent in FET (yes, it doesn't disprove it, but it should be enough to cause doubt in it, which means one can't automatically assume that the Earth is Flat)

This doesn't have anything to do with the calculation of curvature. The subject is the circumference of an FE, not the curvature of an RE.
But he was an overall idiot, and you trust him.
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.

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Johannes

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 07:39:50 PM »
And thus, any calculations that he used this value for must also be wrong. As the curvature of the Earth is one such calculation, then the "evidence" he presents against RET based on his calculations of the curvature of the Earth are also wrong. This means that his claims about the expected height displacements in his famous experiments for the RET are also wrong, and thus can not be used as evidence against RET.

Which also means that the whole discussion about the bet means that Rowbotham had to have lost, because he was making predictions based on his value for Pi, which is wrong and so his predictions were wrong.

It puts a big dent in FET (yes, it doesn't disprove it, but it should be enough to cause doubt in it, which means one can't automatically assume that the Earth is Flat)

This doesn't have anything to do with the calculation of curvature. The subject is the circumference of an FE, not the curvature of an RE.
But he was an overall idiot, and you trust him.
You think mass and optical density are the same thing. You have no right to call any physicist and idiot.

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Perfect Circle

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2008, 07:53:30 PM »
And thus, any calculations that he used this value for must also be wrong. As the curvature of the Earth is one such calculation, then the "evidence" he presents against RET based on his calculations of the curvature of the Earth are also wrong. This means that his claims about the expected height displacements in his famous experiments for the RET are also wrong, and thus can not be used as evidence against RET.

Which also means that the whole discussion about the bet means that Rowbotham had to have lost, because he was making predictions based on his value for Pi, which is wrong and so his predictions were wrong.

It puts a big dent in FET (yes, it doesn't disprove it, but it should be enough to cause doubt in it, which means one can't automatically assume that the Earth is Flat)

This doesn't have anything to do with the calculation of curvature. The subject is the circumference of an FE, not the curvature of an RE.
But he was an overall idiot, and you trust him.
You think mass and optical density are the same thing. You have no right to call any physicist and idiot.
I never said that. The total opacity for the first 3.5 miles of vertical atmosphere is equal to the total opacity of the remaining 19.2 miles. Therefore, since a telescope can see through the entire vertical atmosphere, it must be able to see through approximately the full opacity equivalent down here, or 7.0 miles (2*50%). It's not exact, it's an approximate, but it's good enough to show that opacity doesn't account for the horizon distance on a clear day.
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.

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Johannes

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2008, 07:58:11 PM »
And thus, any calculations that he used this value for must also be wrong. As the curvature of the Earth is one such calculation, then the "evidence" he presents against RET based on his calculations of the curvature of the Earth are also wrong. This means that his claims about the expected height displacements in his famous experiments for the RET are also wrong, and thus can not be used as evidence against RET.

Which also means that the whole discussion about the bet means that Rowbotham had to have lost, because he was making predictions based on his value for Pi, which is wrong and so his predictions were wrong.

It puts a big dent in FET (yes, it doesn't disprove it, but it should be enough to cause doubt in it, which means one can't automatically assume that the Earth is Flat)

This doesn't have anything to do with the calculation of curvature. The subject is the circumference of an FE, not the curvature of an RE.
But he was an overall idiot, and you trust him.
You think mass and optical density are the same thing. You have no right to call any physicist and idiot.
I never said that. The total opacity for the first 3.5 miles of vertical atmosphere is equal to the total opacity of the remaining 19.2 miles. Therefore, since a telescope can see through the entire vertical atmosphere, it must be able to see through approximately the full opacity equivalent down here, or 7.0 miles (2*50%). It's not exact, it's an approximate, but it's good enough to show that opacity doesn't account for the horizon distance on a clear day.
I am losing faith in humanity right now.

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Cinlef

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2008, 03:01:11 AM »

Zounds we've been had! Pesky Fact Checking The quote  posted from Rowbothan is innacurate

In fact according to the Earth Not a Globe on Google Books the value given for the circumference of the Earth is in fact 32,800 statue miles which when plugged into pi=P/ (2*r) gives a value of pi=3.1393568147013782542113323124043

            Granted this is not the accurate pi=3.1415926535897932384626433832795028

It is however much closer
An fact checking
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2008, 09:10:58 AM »

Zounds we've been had! Pesky Fact Checking The quote  posted from Rowbothan is innacurate

In fact according to the Earth Not a Globe on Google Books the value given for the circumference of the Earth is in fact 32,800 statue miles which when plugged into pi=P/ (2*r) gives a value of pi=3.1393568147013782542113323124043

            Granted this is not the accurate pi=3.1415926535897932384626433832795028

It is however much closer
An fact checking
Cinlef


Interesting, the third edition of the book, which I thought was the most current, has it at 52,800 miles.  As shown here:http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za22.htm.

The link you have shown does not give the edition, so I am not sure when it was written.  It does say it is by Rowbatham and George Daley. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:14:10 AM by ragnarr »

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Cinlef

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2008, 12:34:31 PM »

Zounds we've been had! Pesky Fact Checking The quote  posted from Rowbothan is innacurate

In fact according to the Earth Not a Globe on Google Books the value given for the circumference of the Earth is in fact 32,800 statue miles which when plugged into pi=P/ (2*r) gives a value of pi=3.1393568147013782542113323124043

            Granted this is not the accurate pi=3.1415926535897932384626433832795028

It is however much closer
An fact checking
Cinlef


Interesting, the third edition of the book, which I thought was the most current, has it at 52,800 miles.  As shown here:http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za22.htm.

The link you have shown does not give the edition, so I am not sure when it was written.  It does say it is by Rowbatham and George Daley. 

Tom Bishop you are probably the resident expert on Zetetic Literature. Care to jump in with an explanation? (Sorry if  that comes off as sarcastic due to the ambiguous tone of voice associated with forum posts, cause I'm totally sincere and also deeply puzzled)


A sincere and sincerely bemused
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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markjo

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2008, 01:06:13 PM »

Zounds we've been had! Pesky Fact Checking The quote  posted from Rowbothan is innacurate

In fact according to the Earth Not a Globe on Google Books the value given for the circumference of the Earth is in fact 32,800 statue miles which when plugged into pi=P/ (2*r) gives a value of pi=3.1393568147013782542113323124043

            Granted this is not the accurate pi=3.1415926535897932384626433832795028

It is however much closer
An fact checking
Cinlef


Interesting, the third edition of the book, which I thought was the most current, has it at 52,800 miles.  As shown here:http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za22.htm.

The link you have shown does not give the edition, so I am not sure when it was written.  It does say it is by Rowbatham and George Daley. 

Tom Bishop you are probably the resident expert on Zetetic Literature. Care to jump in with an explanation? (Sorry if  that comes off as sarcastic due to the ambiguous tone of voice associated with forum posts, cause I'm totally sincere and also deeply puzzled)


A sincere and sincerely bemused
Cinlef

I believe that this is the passage that you are looking for (after a long winded series of calculating known distances he comes to this conclusion at the bottom of the link):
Quote
Thus from purely practical data, setting all theories aside, it is ascertained that the diameter of the earth, from the Ross Mountains, or from the volcanic mountains of which Mount Erebus is the chief, to the same radius distance on the opposite side of the northern centre, is more than 10,400 miles; and the circumference, 52,800 statute miles.

Although, to be fair, he does not give an exact figure for his diameter.  He states that is more than 10,400 miles (he seems to like weasel words like that).  So we probably can't use this passage to calculate an accurate value of pi.

Notice that he is also not saying that the diameter is to the edge of the FE or the greater ice wall.  More like "to the edge of the known FE".
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 01:08:53 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Perfect Circle

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Re: Rowbotham's derivation of Pi
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2008, 03:00:41 PM »
This is more of an argument of how Rowbotham uses the vaguest round figures (hundreds of miles) he can come up with, yet, when his calculations are done, he somehow ends up looking for curvature to nearest inch.
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.