The Earth is round because

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2008, 06:10:01 AM »
Quote from: Perfect Circle date=01:01:02 AM
Which means you did not visit the links, and therefore, are not worthy to debate. Come back when you are ready.

Quote from: Tom Bishop date=01:02:23 AM
I checked again and I still didn't see any contradicting experiments. Care to point one out to me?

You checked all 43 links in less than 1 and a half minutes? Impressive.

Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2008, 08:21:50 AM »
Quote from: Perfect Circle date=01:01:02 AM
Which means you did not visit the links, and therefore, are not worthy to debate. Come back when you are ready.

Quote from: Tom Bishop date=01:02:23 AM
I checked again and I still didn't see any contradicting experiments. Care to point one out to me?

You checked all 43 links in less than 1 and a half minutes? Impressive.

Tom's CPU runs at over 9000 Hz.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2008, 02:40:40 PM »
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Experiments that were later shown by a qualified surveyor to point to a round earth, something FE refuses to acknowledge.

Actually, it didn't. Both Wallace and Hampden walked away from the wager claiming that their own side had won.

The wager between the two men was for a year's worth of pay. How is a large bet between two men concrete proof for anything?

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Rowbatham never explained midnight sun at the poles.

Sure he did. It doesn't happen. There is no midnight sun in Antarctica.

Read Earth Not a Globe.

No actually the judge declared Wallace the winner, Hampden refused to admit defeat and accused Wallace of cheating, a claim he had no evidence of.  Hampden was later imprisoned for libel, so what does that tell you?  Whether you like it or not, Wallace (a qualified surveyor) showed that Rowbatham's results were flawed.

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In 1870, a flat-Earth proponent named John Hampden offered a ?500 wager in a magazine advertisement to anyone who could demonstrate a convex curvature in a body of water such as a river, canal, or lake. Wallace, intrigued by the challenge and short of money at the time, designed an experiment in which he set up two objects along a six-mile (10-km) stretch of canal. Both objects were at the same height above the water as, and in a straight line with, a telescope he mounted on a bridge. When seen through the telescope, one object appeared higher than the other, showing the curvature of the earth. The judge for the wager, the editor of Field magazine, declared Wallace the winner, but Hampden refused to accept the result. He sued Wallace and launched a campaign, which persisted for several years, of writing letters to various publications and to organizations of which Wallace was a member denouncing him as a swindler and a thief. Wallace won multiple libel suits against Hampden, but the resulting litigation cost Wallace more than the amount of the wager and the controversy frustrated him for years.[115]


And again, Rowbatham "saying" that there is no midnight sun in Antarctica does not make all the actual accounts of seamen and explorers false.  Rowbatham never traveled to Antarctica to see it for himself, therefore he cannot discount known observations.  24 hour sunlight or night exists in a

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2008, 02:50:37 PM »
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No actually the judge declared Wallace the winner, Hampden refused to admit defeat and accused Wallace of cheating, a claim he had no evidence of. 

Read Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood. There were two judges in the experiment, Wallace's judge and Hampden's judge. Wallace's judge declared Wallace the winner and Hampden's judge declared Hampden the winner. The details of the wager are all described in Christine Garwood's book.

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Hampden was later imprisoned for libel, so what does that tell you? 

Years later Wallace sued Hampden for slander, libel, and threatening his life. The court case doesn't really tell me anything about who won the wager.

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Whether you like it or not, Wallace (a qualified surveyor) showed that Rowbatham's results were flawed

Nope. The wager was for a years worth of pay and each man walked away claiming that he had won. Of course anyone would lie about the results when there's a year's worth of pay to lose.

The Wallace v. Hampden wager is not a valid experiment.

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And again, Rowbatham "saying" that there is no midnight sun in Antarctica does not make all the actual accounts of seamen and explorers false.

Rowbotham supports his assertion with quotes from Antarctic explorers like Sir James Clark Ross who reported seeing no midnight sun.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 02:52:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Perfect Circle

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2008, 02:52:51 PM »
Rowbotham supports his assertion with quotes from Antarctic explorers like Sir James Clark Ross who reported seeing no midnight sun.
Our explorers outnumber and out-qualify your explorers. You obviously did not read through all of the linked pages in my post.
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.

Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2008, 03:11:36 PM »
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Read Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood. There were two judges in the experiment, Wallace's judge and Hampden's judge. Wallace's judge declared Wallace the winner and Hampden's judge declared Hampden the winner. The details of the wager are all described in Christine Garwood's book.

It was later revealed that the 'unbiased' judge that Hampden selected was in fact an avid FE believer, which he had selected to try and ensure that he got a favourable result.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2008, 03:14:10 PM »
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Read Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood. There were two judges in the experiment, Wallace's judge and Hampden's judge. Wallace's judge declared Wallace the winner and Hampden's judge declared Hampden the winner. The details of the wager are all described in Christine Garwood's book.

It was later revealed that the 'unbiased' judge that Hampden selected was in fact an avid FE believer

And the judge Wallace chose was an RE believer.

What's your point?

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which he had selected to try and ensure that he got a favourable result.

What evidence do you have that Hampden cheated?

None? Just because you said so?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 03:16:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2008, 05:21:03 PM »
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And the judge Wallace chose was an RE believer.

What's your point?

I don't recall the judge Wallace chose being an avid RE model believer. Wallace choose his judge because the judge didn't have any motive to prefer one model over the other. Hampden's judge was a friend who owned a printing press which they used to produced FE pamphlets. If the earth was observed to be flat, Wallace's judge would admit it, but if it was observed to be round, Hampden's judge would be unlikely to admit it.

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What evidence do you have that Hampden cheated?

None? Just because you said so?

He had a biased judge who was a strong believer in a FE model. He also tricked Wallace into performing the experiment on the Bedford level, where he believed a flat Earth observation would occur regardless of the planets real shape because of Parallax's prior 'experiments'.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2008, 05:54:01 PM »
So aside from your petty slander you don't have any actual evidence that Hampden cheated or lied, then?

Didn't think so.

Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2008, 06:00:06 PM »
So aside from your petty slander you don't have any actual evidence that Hampden cheated or lied, then?

Didn't think so.
According tot he Rule governing Peer Review (and you claim that they peer reviewed Rowbotham's work) you can not use a biased reviewer. Therefore Hampton was unqualified to be a peer reviewer and his review must be rejected.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2008, 06:01:54 PM »
So aside from your petty slander you don't have any actual evidence that Hampden cheated or lied, then?

Didn't think so.
According tot he Rule governing Peer Review (and you claim that they peer reviewed Rowbotham's work) you can not use a biased reviewer. Therefore Hampton was unqualified to be a peer reviewer and his review must be rejected.

And Wallace's judge believed in an RE, so you can go ahead and reject both of them on grounds of "bias".

Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2008, 06:08:33 PM »
So aside from your petty slander you don't have any actual evidence that Hampden cheated or lied, then?

Didn't think so.
According tot he Rule governing Peer Review (and you claim that they peer reviewed Rowbotham's work) you can not use a biased reviewer. Therefore Hampton was unqualified to be a peer reviewer and his review must be rejected.

And Wallace's judge believed in an RE, so you can go ahead and reject both of them on grounds of "bias".
Finally.

Now that we are in agreement that if there is bias, we can consider the results suspect if the result agree with the bias.

Since we are now in agreement Tom. How about we try to come to some arrangement where by we can agree on an experiment that will determine which is true RE or FE, and agree on people who will perform this experiment.
Everyday household experimentation.

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markjo

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2008, 06:25:15 PM »
So aside from your petty slander you don't have any actual evidence that Hampden cheated or lied, then?
The wager was for a years worth of pay and each man walked away claiming that he had won. Of course anyone would lie about the results when there's a year's worth of pay to lose.
Sounds like a pretty good reason for Hampden to lie or cheat, doesn't it Tom?  I say that it serves Hampden right for making a bet that he couldn't afford to lose.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2008, 12:39:31 AM »
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Sounds like a pretty good reason for Hampden to lie or cheat, doesn't it Tom?

Sounds like a pretty good reason for Wallace to lie, too, which is why I'm not taking this wager at anything more than face value.

However, you REers seem to be taking this ridiculous wager as some sort of "proof" that the earth is a globe.

Unfortunately, it's not proof for the two following reasons:

1.) Both men walked away from the wager claiming that they had won.
2.) The wager was for a years worth of pay. So of course anyone on the losing side would cheat or lie about the results when he had a year's worth of pay to lose.

So the wager between Hampden and Wallace doesn't really tell us anything about the shape of the earth. Sorry.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 02:05:07 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2008, 02:02:33 AM »
Get back to me when you guys have some proper evidence and we can continue this thread.

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markjo

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2008, 05:47:45 AM »
Get back to me when you guys have some proper evidence and we can continue this thread.

I'm not sure if you have ever defined what you consider to be "proper evidence".  You seem to reject pretty much everything out of hand, so what do you want from us?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2008, 08:34:18 AM »
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so what do you want from us?

You can start with some actual evidence for your numerous unsupported claims.

Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2008, 11:04:40 AM »
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1.) Both men walked away from the wager claiming that they had won.

Then ignore the two men representing either viewpoint. What did the person judging it say?

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The wager was for a years worth of pay. So of course anyone on the losing side would cheat or lie about the results when he had a year's worth of pay to lose.

So ignore what the person representing the winning or loosing side says. What did the judge say?

Hampden was responsible for the place, date, time and equipment used. Why do you say that Wallace rigged the experiment to suggest a round Earth?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2008, 01:05:04 PM »
Here is the article that documented the bet and who actually won the bet (Wallace was judged to be the winner, Hampden refused to admit defeat and accused Wallace of cheating).

You have to purchase the article to read the whole thing.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v1/n23/pdf/001581a0.pdf

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2008, 01:44:19 PM »
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Then ignore the two men representing either viewpoint. What did the person judging it say?

Already discussed in this thread. There were two judges in the wager. Wallace's judge declared Wallace the winner and Hampden's judge declared Hampden the winner.

The details of th wager are all described in Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2008, 01:46:36 PM »
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Then ignore the two men representing either viewpoint. What did the person judging it say?

Already discussed in this thread. There were two judges in the wager. Wallace's judge declared Wallace the winner and Hampden's judge declared Hampden the winner.

The details of th wager are all described in Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood.

was Christine Garwood present during the experiment?  The journalist from Nature was there, and he was the one who wrote the article.  Christine Garwood got her info second hand from Hampden.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2008, 01:49:14 PM »
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was Christine Garwood present during the experiment?  The journalist from Nature was there, and he was the one who wrote the article.  Christine Garwood got her info second hand from Hampden.

The journalist from Nature was Wallace's judge. He's the one who declared Wallace the winner.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2008, 01:50:15 PM »
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was Christine Garwood present during the experiment?

what was the name of Hampden's judge?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2008, 01:50:46 PM »
Christine Garwood is a historian who has done deep research on the subject. The details of the wager are all described and supported in her book Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea. Check it out at your local library.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2008, 02:02:30 PM »
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In one of the more poignant episodes of her book, Garwood recounts the story of Alfred Russel Wallace, the great naturalist and contemporary of Darwin, who accepted a wager of 500 [pounds sterling] to prove that the Earth curved. The test, with two presumably independent judges, was to see if two markers at the same exact height above a straight canal in England, six and three miles from a telescope, would appear to line up when viewed through the telescope. Wallace knew that the far marker would appear lower than the middle one, owing to the Earth's curve down and away. And so it did; but in a stunning exercise of doublethink, one of the judges--who turned out to be a partisan of Parallax--interpreted what he saw as confirming just the opposite. The ensuing brouhaha was embarrassing to Wallace, and, if anything, strengthened the hand of the contrarians.

Tell me how if the far marker appeared lower that indicates a flat earth, I believe that contradicts what Rowbatham indicates in his second experiment:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za07.htm

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2008, 02:04:59 PM »
They didn't even perform the same experiment as Rowbotham. They tried it, but were having technical issues. So they performed a completely different experiment.

Read Garwood's book for more information on the setup.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2008, 02:15:28 PM »
Sure, they used 2 markers, each 3 miles apart, instead of 6 markers 1 mile apart.  The last flag was still 6 miles from the viewer, and it was lower than a flag that was half that distance.  That directly contradicts what Rowbatham found.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2008, 02:48:39 PM »
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Sure, they used 2 markers, each 3 miles apart, instead of 6 markers 1 mile apart.  The last flag was still 6 miles from the viewer, and it was lower than a flag that was half that distance.

Really? How do you know what was seen?

Each man walked away claiming that he had won, remember?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2008, 04:30:03 PM »
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Sure, they used 2 markers, each 3 miles apart, instead of 6 markers 1 mile apart.  The last flag was still 6 miles from the viewer, and it was lower than a flag that was half that distance.

Really? How do you know what was seen?

Each man walked away claiming that he had won, remember?

Wrong actually, Hampden accused Wallace of cheating and purposely setting up the experiment to give the results of a round earth.  That is why "The Bedford Canal swindle detected & exposed" was written.  He had absolutely no proof of the claim, and was later imprisoned for libel due to his attempts to defame Wallace. 

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is round because
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2008, 06:16:40 PM »
Wrong actually, Hampden accused Wallace of cheating and purposely setting up the experiment to give the results of a round earth.  That is why "The Bedford Canal swindle detected & exposed" was written.  He had absolutely no proof of the claim, and was later imprisoned for libel due to his attempts to defame Wallace. 

Nope. After the experiment Hampden and Carpenter walked away claiming that they had won. Wallace reported later that Carpenter had actually jumped for joy upon looking into the telescope, cheering 'Beautiful, Beautiful!'

Pick up Christine Garwood's book.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 07:01:32 PM by Tom Bishop »