A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.

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The number of little phenomena and extra forces keeping everything in check in the FE model seems to be growing quite big, so I thought to collect all the ones I have seen so far into a single topic. If you feel that there are any that I have missed out, or you feel that one currently in here is explained by something else, then please feel free to point it out. I shall try to update this list occasionally as the models change.



RE specific unknowns

  • Gravity: An apparent attractive force exerted by all known mass. Possibly caused by warped space-time, but why mass warps space-time is unknown.
  • (RE model) Dark energy: A force that seems to be accelerating the rate of expansion of the observable universe. Not any really solid ideas as to what it is as of current.
  • Dark matter: A form of matter believed to explain why galaxies seem to contain more mass than they look like they contain. May be due in part to a lack of understanding about gravity over large distances.


FE specific unknowns

  • (FE model) Dark energy: A force that accelerates either:
    • Everything, in which case matter blocks the force and prevents it from accelerating objects on the surface of the planet, and rapidly spreads back across above the planet to accelerate the celestial objects above the planet, or;
    • Only accelerates certain forms of matter, which the base of the planet and the celestial objects are made of but not objects on the surface, which it passes through without affecting.
    Has no known cause.
  • (FE model) Electromagnetic accelerator: A force that acts in the same direction as FE model dark energy, and accelerates only light. No known cause, although it may somehow be related to FE model dark energy.
  • (no known name)Force rotating the heavens: Force that keeps the Sun, Moon, planets and stars rotating around the North pole. Becomes weaker as it approaches the North pole so that stars close to the Celestial pole are moved less than those near the equator. Also varies, moving the Sun closer and further from the North pole to account for seasons, although this may be due to a different force. Also may act to rotate the planet's core and produce the magnetic field that we observe. No known cause.
  • (no known name)Force operating Sun: Method of operation that allows the sun to generate large quantities of energy from such a small sphere. Either due to:
    • An undiscovered mechanism of fission that allows the sun to break up atoms into pure energy without any or very little waste products, or;
    • The sun being made of an unknown substance that can generate large quantities of energy.
  • Shadow object: A object made of an unknown material that blocks or reflects away all light coming from the Sun to cause Lunar eclipses, but allows light from the stars to pass through it. Note that this may not be needed if the moon produces it's own light.
  • Tidal forces Force raising and lowering the tides that acts upwards at the point where the Moon is and the point opposite from where the Moon is, and acts downwards at points 90 degrees in front/behind the former points. May be due to an attractive force generated by the Moon and a repulsive force generated by an anti-Moon on the other side of the planet, but is currently largely unknown. The sun also seems to have a similar, but smaller, effect much like this.
  • (no known name)Attraction between certain celestial bodies: This force is evident in the sun, keeping Mercury and Venus orbiting it, and is also present in some of the outer planets keeping their moons orbiting and in binary stars. Attraction acts between only certain objects, ignoring other objects if they pass close, suggesting that such objects are made of a different kind of matter to other objects that is only affected by this force.
  • (no known name)retrograde loop force: Force that explains why the outer planets seem to reverse their motion when they reach the point in their orbit that is furthest from the Sun. May be related to the force that keeps them orbiting in a circle above the planet, or to an attraction between them and the Sun.
  • (no known name)Force bending light near the Sun: The force or mechanism that explains why light from the stars behind the sun seems to be bent towards the Sun, as observed during an eclipse. May be related to the attractive force the Sun seems to have on certain objects.
  • (no known name)Mechanism delaying signals sent to celestial objects: Mechanism that causes signals that are bounced off of the Moon or other celestial objects to take so long to return to us. Measurements from the planets may have been somehow faked by NASA, but the extended length of time for a bounce to the Moon has been verified by at least one third party. No known cause, but may be due to a extremely dense, transparent flat object between the celestial objects and us.
  • (no known name)Mechanism causing galaxies to have very large red or blue shift: Mechanism that makes the galaxies to seem like they are travelling at a very high speed towards or away from us, when in actuality they have a very low radial velocity. May be due to a unknown substance between the galaxies and us that shifts the spectral lines of the light emitted by the galaxies, or due to the galaxies being made of a different kind of matter which happens to emit light with the same spectra as normal matter, bust shifted slightly to the left and right.
  • FE creation: Mechanism that lead to the various aspects of the FE model being as they are, for example the Sun an Moon forming as almost perfectly spherical objects and the Earth forming as a almost perfectly flat sheet of matter. Also may apply to why the stars, planets, galixies and other celestial objects formed as they did and where they are.
  • FE compisition: Form of matter, or forces in place that explain why the planet retains it's shape. May be due to unkown forms of matter that make up the base and sides of the planet, preventing it from changing shape, or due to unknown forces holding the planet in a disc shape. Form of matter or forces will have to not cause any earthquakes as to remain undetectable from our side of the disc.
  • behavior of earthquakes: Property of the inside of the planet to spread earthquakes in a certain pattern across it's surface. May be due to the waves being bounced back by unusual reflective properties of the matterthat makes up the inside of the planet, but is currently unknown.
  • Celestial gears: Mecanism that rotates groups of matching stars around certain points above Antarctica. Possibly due to some kind of interacction with the main rotation around the North Pole, but why is currently unknown.


Again, if there's anything you feel needs to be added, removed or changed, then feel free to discuss it.

Last edited 1:22AM GMT
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 05:20:22 PM by NTheGreat »

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2008, 09:12:35 AM »
FE unknown geological and seismological forces:

Undetectable bottom cylinder earthquakes: Force/matter that makes earthquakes coming from the bottom of the cylinder not being detectable, either through less dense material or material/a force refracting or reflecting the P-waves.

Earthquake bending: Force/matter that makes earthquakes bend through the mantle and core so that earthquakes on the western side of the disk can be detected on the eastern side.

Strong bottom cylinder: Force/matter that is resistant to the constant accelerating force, so that mantle material is not thrown out into space.

Strong sides of the cylinder: Force/matter that, on the sides of the cylinder, is cool or hard enough to sustain the preassure and heat of the inner cylinder.

Core rotation: Force that makes the core rotate, without braking the cylinder into pieces.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 12:02:09 PM by Earthquakesdontbend »
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2008, 09:29:52 AM »
* The material which the base of the FE is made of to hold the weight of the Earth, and be accelerated at 9.8 m/s^2 to boot!
* The antimoon:
why does the wind on a FE always go from west to east?
The Antimoon. (Yes, I am back, and I'm dragging the antimoon back with me)
The antimoon orbits below the earth, it's gravity drags the air, creating winds and hurricanes, much like the tides of the regular moon.

Please describe this antimoon in more detail to me. The force of gravity, as predicted by Newton (and observed through the ages to be correct), affects all matter. Why does this antimoon only affect air? And how does it create the wind patterns? The doldrums? The jet streams?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 09:38:24 AM by mrsquig »

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trig

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2008, 10:18:45 AM »
In FE:

Unknown phenomenon that creates redshift and blueshift in the celestial objects, even though they are not moving away from us.

Unknown phenomenon that makes the same constellations from the Southern sky visible from every place in the Southern hemisphere. Also, this phenomenon makes more than half the constellations of the Southern sky visible from the Northern hemisphere, except from the most northern part of the Earth. A mechanism called "gears in the sky" was proposed, but it is way too full of holes to even consider.

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2008, 05:21:09 PM »
Quote
Undetectable bottom cylinder earthquakes: Force/matter that makes earthquakes coming from the bottom of the cylinder not being detectable, either through less dense material or material/a force refracting or reflecting the P-waves.
Quote
Earthquake bending: Force/matter that makes earthquakes bend through the mantle and core so that earthquakes on the western side of the disk can be detected on the eastern side.
Quote
Strong bottom cylinder: Force/matter that is resistant to the constant accelerating force, so that mantle material is not thrown out into space.
Quote
Strong sides of the cylinder: Force/matter that, on the sides of the cylinder, is cool or hard enough to sustain the preassure and heat of the inner cylinder.

I shall add points about the construct of the inside of the FE and how earthquakes behave.

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Core rotation: Force that makes the core rotate, without braking the cylinder into pieces.

Covered under the 'Force rotating the heavens' section



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* The material which the base of the FE is made of to hold the weight of the Earth, and be accelerated at 9.8 m/s^2 to boot!

Will be covered by the previous posters points.

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* The antimoon:

Covered in the shadow object section.



Quote
Unknown phenomenon that creates redshift and blueshift in the celestial objects, even though they are not moving away from us.

covered under the 11th bullet point.

Quote
Unknown phenomenon that makes the same constellations from the Southern sky visible from every place in the Southern hemisphere. Also, this phenomenon makes more than half the constellations of the Southern sky visible from the Northern hemisphere, except from the most northern part of the Earth. A mechanism called "gears in the sky" was proposed, but it is way too full of holes to even consider.

I shall add a section on celestial gears. I had forgotten about those.

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2008, 06:21:34 PM »
FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Parsifal

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2008, 07:11:07 AM »
FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "unknown".
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2008, 09:54:10 AM »
This should be stickied...

It is obviously important information for both parts, so they do not bring up theories that can be explained while forgetting to discuss those which cannot.
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2008, 11:21:28 AM »
This should be stickied...

It is obviously important information for both parts, so they do not bring up theories that can be explained while forgetting to discuss those which cannot.

Request for sticky seconded.

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PeopleOnBehalfOfLogic

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2008, 12:27:57 PM »
Thirded.

Also, tectonic plates. The FE'rs I asked about this confirmed they existed and moved, but couldn't reply when I asked for a process by which they moved, what effect they would have on the shape of the earth, and why the ice wall is still in place and has been since liquid water.
Just noticed my name is actually pretty insulting. Apologies.

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2008, 03:49:12 PM »
FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "unknown".
I do. It is Unknown in FET how such Geodesics can exist (as they can easily be measured by relatively primitive devices - and so can't be tampered with). They have been measured (and you can even do this yourself if you don't believe me) and thus do exists. There is no known proposal in all of FET as to why we can measure Geodesics that requier a round surface if the surface is supposed to be flat.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Perfect Circle

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2008, 03:49:49 PM »
FE Maps: Millions of people have no problem navigating with a RE map or GPS (don't give me the 'GPS conspiracy', I can put together a functional GPS with my PSP based on round earth map data and use it to navigate just fine) based on a round earth, yet a flat earth map would put them thousands of miles off at long distances in the north and south.

FE Stars: Why the same constellations can be seen at opposite ends of the southern hemisphere, even though this can only occur for the northern hemisphere on a flat earth.

FE Sunlight: Why stars can be seen through the 'thick atmosphere' and bendy light near the horizon at night, but the sun (which is much closer and brighter) does not seem to result in any visible diffuse light at night.
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.

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Parsifal

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2008, 10:23:21 PM »
FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "unknown".
I do. It is Unknown in FET how such Geodesics can exist (as they can easily be measured by relatively primitive devices - and so can't be tampered with). They have been measured (and you can even do this yourself if you don't believe me) and thus do exists. There is no known proposal in all of FET as to why we can measure Geodesics that requier a round surface if the surface is supposed to be flat.

The fact that those geodesics have been measured is not unknown. Also, "geodesic" is not a proper noun.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2008, 02:17:00 AM »
FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "unknown".
I do. It is Unknown in FET how such Geodesics can exist (as they can easily be measured by relatively primitive devices - and so can't be tampered with). They have been measured (and you can even do this yourself if you don't believe me) and thus do exists. There is no known proposal in all of FET as to why we can measure Geodesics that requier a round surface if the surface is supposed to be flat.

The fact that those geodesics have been measured is not unknown. Also, "geodesic" is not a proper noun.
Nouns are the names of things. Geodesic is the name for a straight line that follows the surface. Hence it is a noun.

The unknown is the explanation that can account for these measured geodesics under FET.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Parsifal

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2008, 02:20:26 AM »
Nouns are the names of things. Geodesic is the name for a straight line that follows the surface. Hence it is a noun.

I never said it wasn't a noun.

The unknown is the explanation that can account for these measured geodesics under FET.

That's not what you said.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2008, 05:31:30 AM »
Nouns are the names of things. Geodesic is the name for a straight line that follows the surface. Hence it is a noun.

I never said it wasn't a noun.
Ahh, pedantry.

Do you have any argument against it that is valid (as invalid arguments tend to make your own position appear weaker as it indicates that you don't have a rational argument against it, and that your position is not supported)?

Quote
That's not what you said.
Yes it is, it is just that you are not reading what i said.

What I wrote was
"FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round."
1) It is a fact that geodesics have been measured for the Earth.
2) The Mathematics of geodesics specify that the geodesics measured for the Earth require the Earth to be round.
3) FE has no explanation of why this is.

Therefore it is unknown why in FET that the geodesics measured do not match what a flat Earth should produce.

That is unless you can give one...
Everyday household experimentation.

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Parsifal

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2008, 09:23:29 AM »
Yes it is, it is just that you are not reading what i said.

What I wrote was
"FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round."
1) It is a fact that geodesics have been measured for the Earth.
2) The Mathematics of geodesics specify that the geodesics measured for the Earth require the Earth to be round.
3) FE has no explanation of why this is.

Therefore it is unknown why in FET that the geodesics measured do not match what a flat Earth should produce.

That is unless you can give one...

Uh, exactly. You stated the FE unknown to be "The fact that...". The fact that the geodesics have been measured is not unknown.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Perfect Circle

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2008, 10:50:28 AM »
Why are Dark Energy and Dark Matter even there under RET? Neither of them are actually required for the earth to be round.
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.

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The One True Rat

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2008, 10:55:16 AM »
dont forget to add the bit about reflecting sky mirrors!

also, to create a list of unknowns for FE is a bit biased...
you see, because of the conspiracy theory, all the things that COULD be known are prevented.

mabe there could be a conspiracy section. but by definition, a conspiracy IS unknown...

oh! oh! and add a bit about antarctica, how/why nobody has ever seen the ice wall or circumpolar navigated.
also, nobody knows how far the ice wall goes out. could be an infinate plane.

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The One True Rat

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2008, 10:58:56 AM »
Why are Dark Energy and Dark Matter even there under RET? Neither of them are actually required for the earth to be round.

also, gravity and dark matter are equally unknown in both RE and FE.
the only difference is that FE requires dark energy or another unknown force to work.
gravity also has nothing to do with the earth being flat, as there is no gravity on FE. just nearly everything else. i mean... gravitation...

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2008, 02:28:37 AM »
Yes it is, it is just that you are not reading what i said.

What I wrote was
"FE Unknown: The fact that Geodesics measured for the surface of the Earth require the Earth to be Round."
1) It is a fact that geodesics have been measured for the Earth.
2) The Mathematics of geodesics specify that the geodesics measured for the Earth require the Earth to be round.
3) FE has no explanation of why this is.

Therefore it is unknown why in FET that the geodesics measured do not match what a flat Earth should produce.

That is unless you can give one...

Uh, exactly. You stated the FE unknown to be "The fact that...". The fact that the geodesics have been measured is not unknown.
But you forgot the part after the ellipsis. The part that said "...require the Earth to be Round.". It is unknown in FET why this occurs. According to FET, why should the geodesics measured for the Surface of the Earth indicate that it is Round if it is really falt? I don't knonw. I have not seen any explanation for it, and when asked for an explanation no answer is forthcoming. I can only take that to mean that it is...

...Unknown.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Parsifal

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2008, 04:03:28 AM »
But you forgot the part after the ellipsis. The part that said "...require the Earth to be Round.". It is unknown in FET why this occurs. According to FET, why should the geodesics measured for the Surface of the Earth indicate that it is Round if it is really falt? I don't knonw. I have not seen any explanation for it, and when asked for an explanation no answer is forthcoming. I can only take that to mean that it is...

...Unknown.

I didn't forget anything. You claimed that the fact was unknown, not the explanation for it.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2008, 04:39:13 AM »
But you forgot the part after the ellipsis. The part that said "...require the Earth to be Round.". It is unknown in FET why this occurs. According to FET, why should the geodesics measured for the Surface of the Earth indicate that it is Round if it is really falt? I don't knonw. I have not seen any explanation for it, and when asked for an explanation no answer is forthcoming. I can only take that to mean that it is...

...Unknown.

I didn't forget anything. You claimed that the fact was unknown, not the explanation for it.
Again, only if you read the fist half of the sentence. There is the whole sentence to read you know.

It is a complex sentence I know, but most high school kids could read that correctly. I am not saying that the Geodesics are unknown, but why they specify a Round Earth.

And besides, even if the sentence was written badly (I'm not Shakespeare by any means), it still does not make what I intended incorrect, and the fact that you are arguing semantics over what (as far as you claim) is a badly written sentence despite knowing full wellthe intentions of it means that you don't have an aswer for it.

So this indicates that you don't known (it is unknown).

Also, if the measurements of the Geodesics were known to FEers, why then do they conclude that the Earth is Flat? If direct measurements (that they can do themselves) mathematically proves that the Earth has to be Round and yet they haven't come to that conclusions, then one can assume that either they are really stupid (ie they don't accept that 1 + 1 = 2) or they really didn't know about it. And that means my sentence is correct, even under your interpretation (as that would mean the geodesic measurements were unknown to them).
Everyday household experimentation.

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Perfect Circle

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2008, 11:22:56 AM »
FE Maps: Millions of people have no problem navigating with a RE map or GPS (don't give me the 'GPS conspiracy', I can put together a functional GPS with my PSP based on round earth map data and use it to navigate just fine) based on a round earth, yet a flat earth map would put them thousands of miles off at long distances in the north and south.

FE Stars: Why the same constellations can be seen at opposite ends of the southern hemisphere, even though this can only occur for the northern hemisphere on a flat earth.

FE Sunlight: Why stars can be seen through the 'thick atmosphere' and bendy light near the horizon at night, but the sun (which is much closer and brighter) does not seem to result in any visible diffuse light at night.
I'm assuming that FET cannot answer these questions. Another victory for RE!
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.

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PeopleOnBehalfOfLogic

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2008, 02:36:31 PM »
Robosteve, Edtharan, you know what each other mean. Frankly, I care more about FE unknowns than grammer.
Just noticed my name is actually pretty insulting. Apologies.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2008, 07:39:15 AM »
Why are Dark Energy and Dark Matter even there under RET? Neither of them are actually required for the earth to be round.
Only FE is dependent on the theoretical mechanisms for the expansion of the universe. Valid point.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2008, 10:29:15 AM »
Quote
Rather huge mess of an argument about what constitutes 'unknown'.

I should probably update the first post, but I don't really see a way that won't spark another argument. Perhaps another topic or section containing improbable things about either model, such as cartographers repeated failing to measure the geodesics correctly...

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PeopleOnBehalfOfLogic

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Re: A collection of unknowns specific to either the RE or FE model.
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2008, 09:52:52 AM »
Bump. Can we have a brand new locked sticky FAQ style?
Just noticed my name is actually pretty insulting. Apologies.