Eugenics

  • 90 Replies
  • 26450 Views
*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2009, 05:40:24 AM »
Eliminating weak genes is not the same as inbreeding. It is induced competition in the gene pool when it would otherwise be stagnant and exposed to nonbenificial genetic drift.

?

Proleg

Re: Eugenics
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2009, 10:13:17 AM »
How is "race" as a classification of human beings defined?

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2009, 10:58:42 AM »
As for passing genes on being the primary motivator, why do guys hate pulling out so much?
Same reason they prefer it when you swallow.
Thank you. I was having trouble finding a good way to explain it.
Swallowing has nothing to do with passing on genes. It just helps to fulfill the primitive desires.

I's assuming genes that make a guy want to not pull out are fairly vague on which orifice. Hell I've seen instincts lead to the wrong species before.

Which makes it evidence that he is fulfilling his desire for sexual stimulation and not his desire for a transfer of genetic data.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2009, 07:50:59 PM »
As for passing genes on being the primary motivator, why do guys hate pulling out so much?
Same reason they prefer it when you swallow.
Thank you. I was having trouble finding a good way to explain it.
Swallowing has nothing to do with passing on genes. It just helps to fulfill the primitive desires.

I's assuming genes that make a guy want to not pull out are fairly vague on which orifice. Hell I've seen instincts lead to the wrong species before.

Which makes it evidence that he is fulfilling his desire for sexual stimulation and not his desire for a transfer of genetic data.

The desire for sexual stimulation IS the desire for passing on your genes. Just like hunger is the desire to obtain energy not the desire to taste things.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2009, 07:56:56 PM »
No caveman wanted to have sex to make sure his genetic code was passed down.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2009, 07:57:58 PM »
No caveman wanted to have sex to make sure his genetic code was passed down.

Yeah they did. The fact that they were unaware of their urge's origin did not lessen the urge.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2009, 08:10:29 PM »
No caveman wanted to have sex to make sure his genetic code was passed down.

Yeah they did. The fact that they were unaware of their urge's origin did not lessen the urge.
Sexual drive may have been derived from an evolutionary imperative, but willfully choosing an action specifically to suit a purpose only works if they can know about the purpose.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2009, 08:25:12 PM »
No caveman wanted to have sex to make sure his genetic code was passed down.

Yeah they did. The fact that they were unaware of their urge's origin did not lessen the urge.
Sexual drive may have been derived from an evolutionary imperative, but willfully choosing an action specifically to suit a purpose only works if they can know about the purpose.

The urge is still there to have kids. Not just to have sex but to protect the child. Ever had a girl pregnant?

As I have said, the urge to pass on our genes manifests in many ways, and you will never convince someone not to pass on their genes because you see them as unfit. Perhaps someone will be unwilling to procreate because of a disease they have that would be passed on but even that is rare.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2009, 08:42:09 PM »
The urge is still there to have kids. Not just to have sex but to protect the child. Ever had a girl pregnant?
The desire may exist to have and protect kids but without knowing the connection between sex and babies, you can't have willfully act on your desires. Also, the desire to have and protect kids usually manifests from the hormones of having started that process. Like you say, pregnant girls aren't overprotective before they're pregnant.

Quote
As I have said, the urge to pass on our genes manifests in many ways, and you will never convince someone not to pass on their genes because you see them as unfit.
Who says I would be deciding? Why not the parents themselves, in this possible ideal future?

Urges are associated with behavior. If the urge isn't the act itself, and you have no knowledge/rational connection to the satisfy the goals of the urges they don't influence behavior. Someone who wants to have kids but doesn't know sex will help him achieve that goal is not more likely to have sex. Did you know that monkeys who have not seen sex will not have sex? There's a disconnect where the lack of knowledge of sex from observational learning inhibits their behavioral desires. In these cases, they actually tend to just avoid the females entirely. Of course if you can eliminate the capacity for knowledge by converting it to pure instinct (not goal oriented) you can circumvent learning obstacles. Rats for instance will mate without previous knowledge of sex.

The caveman with no knowledge of the causality behind sex will not have an urge for sex beyond that of sexual stimulation, but just a frustrating desire for kids that he doesn't know how to satisfy.

Quote
Perhaps someone will be unwilling to procreate because of a disease they have that would be passed on but even that is rare.
Unfortunately evolution tends to work against higher order logic. Those willing to sacrifice their urges are actually what we need in the gene pool. The largest hope I can think of is enlightening the society through education.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 08:44:11 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2009, 08:45:28 PM »
So basically you admit we have the urge to bear children, raise them, and protect them, but you won't admit that the sum total of these urges is to carry on our genes?

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2009, 09:05:45 PM »
So basically you admit we have the urge to bear children, raise them, and protect them, but you won't admit that the sum total of these urges is to carry on our genes?
Carrying on our genes is the overall purpose, but not a desire that would willfully influence behaviors dissociated with it.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2009, 09:07:23 PM »
So basically you admit we have the urge to bear children, raise them, and protect them, but you won't admit that the sum total of these urges is to carry on our genes?
Carrying on our genes is the overall purpose, but not a desire that would willfully influence behaviors dissociated with it.

Evolution lacks a purpose. It is the overall result of the desires. Also the sum total of our actions is just as much our will as our conscious thought.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2009, 09:12:14 PM »
So basically you admit we have the urge to bear children, raise them, and protect them, but you won't admit that the sum total of these urges is to carry on our genes?
Carrying on our genes is the overall purpose, but not a desire that would willfully influence behaviors dissociated with it.

Evolution lacks a purpose. It is the overall result of the desires. Also the sum total of our actions is just as much our will as our conscious thought.
I'm not saying evolution has a purpose. I'm saying because of evolution, sex serves the purpose of passing on genes. A person looking to pass on their genes would turn to the option of having sex (assuming he knew that sex would help him reach his goal).

It can't be a motivator to the ignorant.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2009, 09:16:52 PM »
So basically you admit we have the urge to bear children, raise them, and protect them, but you won't admit that the sum total of these urges is to carry on our genes?
Carrying on our genes is the overall purpose, but not a desire that would willfully influence behaviors dissociated with it.

Evolution lacks a purpose. It is the overall result of the desires. Also the sum total of our actions is just as much our will as our conscious thought.
I'm not saying evolution has a purpose. I'm saying because of evolution, sex serves the purpose of passing on genes. A person looking to pass on their genes would turn to the option of having sex (assuming he knew that sex would help him reach his goal).

It can't be a motivator to the ignorant.

So you're saying sex serves the purpose of passing on our genes. And we have the urge to have sex. Would this not therefore mean that we have the urge to pass on our genes?

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2009, 09:32:15 PM »
So basically you admit we have the urge to bear children, raise them, and protect them, but you won't admit that the sum total of these urges is to carry on our genes?
Carrying on our genes is the overall purpose, but not a desire that would willfully influence behaviors dissociated with it.

Evolution lacks a purpose. It is the overall result of the desires. Also the sum total of our actions is just as much our will as our conscious thought.
I'm not saying evolution has a purpose. I'm saying because of evolution, sex serves the purpose of passing on genes. A person looking to pass on their genes would turn to the option of having sex (assuming he knew that sex would help him reach his goal).

It can't be a motivator to the ignorant.

So you're saying sex serves the purpose of passing on our genes. And we have the urge to have sex. Would this not therefore mean that we have the urge to pass on our genes?
I'm thinking that wanting sex does not mean wanting kids.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2009, 10:05:49 PM »
So basically you admit we have the urge to bear children, raise them, and protect them, but you won't admit that the sum total of these urges is to carry on our genes?
Carrying on our genes is the overall purpose, but not a desire that would willfully influence behaviors dissociated with it.

Evolution lacks a purpose. It is the overall result of the desires. Also the sum total of our actions is just as much our will as our conscious thought.
I'm not saying evolution has a purpose. I'm saying because of evolution, sex serves the purpose of passing on genes. A person looking to pass on their genes would turn to the option of having sex (assuming he knew that sex would help him reach his goal).

It can't be a motivator to the ignorant.

So you're saying sex serves the purpose of passing on our genes. And we have the urge to have sex. Would this not therefore mean that we have the urge to pass on our genes?
I'm thinking that wanting sex does not mean wanting kids.

So?

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2009, 05:45:29 PM »
So you're saying sex serves the purpose of passing on our genes. And we have the urge to have sex. Would this not therefore mean that we have the urge to pass on our genes?
I'm thinking that wanting sex does not mean wanting kids.

So?
So, the urge is not always to pass on our genes. A desire for the cause does not automatically mean a desire for the effect.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2009, 08:04:27 PM »
So you're saying sex serves the purpose of passing on our genes. And we have the urge to have sex. Would this not therefore mean that we have the urge to pass on our genes?
I'm thinking that wanting sex does not mean wanting kids.

So?
So, the urge is not always to pass on our genes. A desire for the cause does not automatically mean a desire for the effect.

You are giving the urge too specific a purpose.

The urge to overeat is the urge to store fat, it doesn't mean people are happy about storing fat.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2009, 08:49:01 PM »
The urge to overeat is the urge to store fat.
Nobody I know has an urge to be fat, though I know a good number of people who have urges to overeat. How could they be one in the same when they are diametrically opposed? I wouldn't even call it an urge, but a consequence.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2009, 08:50:00 PM »
The urge to overeat is the urge to store fat.
Nobody I know has an urge to be fat, though I know a good number of people who have urges to overeat. How could they be one in the same when they are diametrically opposed? I wouldn't even call it an urge, but a consequence.

So the direct consequence of an urge isn't the purpose of the urge?

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4540
  • +0/-0
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2009, 11:16:11 PM »
No, not when the direct consequence is variable.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2009, 01:11:08 PM »
No, not when the direct consequence is variable.

Direct consequences are always variable in biology. It is the repetition of the urge that ensures the consequence.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2009, 01:17:48 PM »
So the direct consequence of an urge isn't the purpose of the urge?

It can be, but its not a rule. You can't make make a statement of equality.
Also, this doesn't even seem like a direct consequence.

The urge to eat is perusing the direct consequence of taste. Converting excess food into fat down the line is a likely consequence of over eating depending on exercise, metabolism, et cetera but it was not necessarily the motivation of the urge. It comes later on even though it is part of the same series of events.

One last thing. Saying a consequence is the purpose completely removes intentions and regularity of the consequences. Walking across the street may have been an action based on the urge to get to the other side, but the poor chicken may get hit by a cement mixer instead. That is a direct consequence of stepping onto the road at the time.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 01:19:31 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2009, 08:02:53 PM »
Intentions do not matter when it comes to biology. We are biologically programmed to pass on our genes. Intentions or not.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2009, 08:09:15 PM »
Intentions do not matter when it comes to biology. We are biologically programmed to pass on our genes. Intentions or not.
We are biological programmed to want sex. A system of eugenics can occur without abstinence.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2009, 10:39:18 PM »
Intentions do not matter when it comes to biology. We are biologically programmed to pass on our genes. Intentions or not.
We are biological programmed to want sex + the urge to not want to pull out + a genuine sense of disgust towards sterilization of any sort + a feeling of remorse when unable to have a child. A system of eugenics can occur without abstinence.

Seriously Singularity, if you can't see anything beyond sex in this issue you are being intentionally dense.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2009, 05:05:00 AM »
Seriously Singularity, if you can't see anything beyond sex in this issue you are being intentionally dense.
We want sex because it is an evolutionary instinct developed from the successful impact it has for passing on our genes. The desire to have children is separate from the desire to have sex, though you can easily accomplish both at the same time.
This seemed obvious to me since people reach these desires at different times in their life.

To say they are the same urge, defeats the point of having birth control.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 05:07:09 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2009, 09:03:42 AM »
Seriously Singularity, if you can't see anything beyond sex in this issue you are being intentionally dense.
We want sex because it is an evolutionary instinct developed from the successful impact it has for passing on our genes. The desire to have children is separate from the desire to have sex, though you can easily accomplish both at the same time.
This seemed obvious to me since people reach these desires at different times in their life.

To say they are the same urge, defeats the point of having birth control.

How so? Have we never before ignored an urge in search of pleasure?

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2009, 09:13:15 AM »
To say they are the same urge, defeats the point of having birth control.

How so? Have we never before ignored an urge in search of pleasure?
Please elaborate. Are you talking about inhibitions for self interest?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30499
  • +0/-0
  • The cat in the Matrix
Re: Eugenics
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2009, 09:22:55 AM »
To say they are the same urge, defeats the point of having birth control.

How so? Have we never before ignored an urge in search of pleasure?
Please elaborate. Are you talking about inhibitions for self interest?

No, the opposite. Denying self interest in search of pleasure.