How does it all stay together?

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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2008, 10:00:08 AM »
When you put your foot down on a solid surface, why wouldn't it go through it? As your foot reaches the point where it would be repulsed by the atoms below it, via your uncertainty principle the atoms on the surface of your foot would already be surrounded by those of the floor, and there would be no repulsive force between your foot and the floor.

Come to think of it, this has little to do with why the FE model stays flat in the first place. The Himalayas are heavier than the pacific, why don't they sink?

We are only working in the plane perpendicular to the direction in which Dark Energy acts. In the direction that the Earth accelerates, its velocity is always changing, and there is therefore much greater uncertainty in momentum (and correspondingly lower uncertainty in position) for each particle.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2008, 11:42:26 AM »
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We are only working in the plane perpendicular to the direction in which Dark Energy acts. In the direction that the Earth accelerates, its velocity is always changing, and there is therefore much greater uncertainty in momentum (and correspondingly lower uncertainty in position) for each particle.

...

So I know where the particle is if I look from above, but I can't be sure of where it is if I look from the side?

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2008, 12:44:14 PM »
The reality of it is, there are no edge atoms. We know that these structures are not flying apart, meaning we know with very great precision that their momentum is very close to zero. Knowing their momentum so precisely means that we have very little knowledge of their position due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and in fact this uncertainty as to their position is so large that it overlaps several surrounding particles. So, there is no particle which can be said to be at the edge, and all of the particles near the edge all have portions outside each other, so they help to keep each other contained.

I understand the Uncertainty Principle, thanks.

I can't decide which one is less true. Both such outrageous claims!

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2008, 02:09:25 PM »
we wouldn't observe internal pressure in a closed system according to robosteve's point, would we?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 02:34:18 PM by iznih »

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2008, 02:25:48 PM »
we wouldn't observe internal pressure in a closed system according to robosteve's point, would we?

Particles on the edge would fly off into space. Robosteve squirted some BS about the uncertainty principle, and looked really stupid in the process.

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PeopleOnBehalfOfLogic

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2008, 02:44:17 PM »
I think perhaps you guys have gotten to the point where this cannot go any further because of either the uncertainty principle or FE, RE or both being wrong.
Just noticed my name is actually pretty insulting. Apologies.

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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2008, 08:33:10 PM »
So I know where the particle is if I look from above, but I can't be sure of where it is if I look from the side?

You know its position to great accuracy in the y dimension, but not in the xz plane. That is to say, its wave function is much narrower vertically than horizontally.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2008, 04:12:51 AM »
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You know its position to great accuracy in the y dimension, but not in the xz plane. That is to say, its wave function is much narrower vertically than horizontally.

So if I touch something from the side, The atoms would be so smeared out as to allow things to pass freely though their spheres of influence?

Besides, if the atoms are so smeared out, then when you move a singe atom it wouldn't get pushed back. There wouldn't be an increased force of repulsion between that atom and the one it moved closer to, as the atom that it moved closer to would already be surrounding it. There would be nothing to push atoms back to their original positions, so the thing would just drift apart.

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2008, 05:00:16 AM »
Can someone, prefertably a flat-earther, explain to me why the celestial objects with an inner heat source are not expanding? The moon would have had a larger volume if there would not have been gravity to hold it together, especially during its' molten phase. Besides, FE does not even explain why the moon exists - or any other spherical celestial body.
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2008, 08:21:38 PM »
Again, I understand how the Uncertainty Principle works. Also, saying that the ground would not be solid means nothing without reasons why it can't be solid, and saying that we would see the uncertainty under a microscope means nothing unless you have personally viewed the edge of the Flat Earth with a microscope and verified that there is a small level of uncertainty in position.
As you said that you understand QM, I thought it would be obvious why according to the mathematics, so this tells me that either you are trolling, or you don't understand QM. You might think you know about QM, but you have demonstrated that you don't.

Ok, lets just look at it under classical mechanics.

If each atom repels each other, and there is an edge of the Earth, then the pressures due to the repulsion add up over the entire radius of the disk and the edge is repelled off. You can try this at home with a series of magnets. Set them up in a line with one end fixed and the other free to move. Push the magnets together and then let go of the free end. The magnets will all repel and the last one will have a large velocity.

But lets assume that the Earth is Infinite (like some models of FE). This means that at any point, the an atom has an infinite amount of force on it. Now these might be in opposite directions so that no movement occurs, but this does not mean that there is no pressure on the atom.

There would in fact be an infinite amount of pressure on it. This would cause any matter to be compressed into a black hole. Or, if there was even the slightest variation on the height of one of these (as we can see variation in height - hills - and that if you do apply QM to it then there is an uncertainty in height and this would give rise to variation in height), then the infinite pressure would cause the ground to erupt with an infinite force.

This problem also exists in the finite model too, but instead of an infinite force, there would be a finite force, but this force would still be massive.

Now this situation does not rely on atoms to be in a certain order. You could switch two atoms places and this would still work. So, using the uncertainty principle to allow atoms to "smear out" will not prevent this repulsion force nor change it into an attractive force. Even if an atom "Tunnelled" through another, it would still experience a repulsive force not an attractive force.
Everyday household experimentation.

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zeroply

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2008, 09:35:32 AM »

But lets assume that the Earth is Infinite (like some models of FE). This means that at any point, the an atom has an infinite amount of force on it. Now these might be in opposite directions so that no movement occurs, but this does not mean that there is no pressure on the atom.

There would in fact be an infinite amount of pressure on it. This would cause any matter to be compressed into a black hole. Or, if there was even the slightest variation on the height of one of these (as we can see variation in height - hills - and that if you do apply QM to it then there is an uncertainty in height and this would give rise to variation in height), then the infinite pressure would cause the ground to erupt with an infinite force.

I'm not sure this argument works. Depending on how the force drops off with distance, it's quite possible for an infinite number of force vectors to add up to a finite number. Zeno's Paradox etc. etc.

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2008, 04:54:24 PM »

But lets assume that the Earth is Infinite (like some models of FE). This means that at any point, the an atom has an infinite amount of force on it. Now these might be in opposite directions so that no movement occurs, but this does not mean that there is no pressure on the atom.

There would in fact be an infinite amount of pressure on it. This would cause any matter to be compressed into a black hole. Or, if there was even the slightest variation on the height of one of these (as we can see variation in height - hills - and that if you do apply QM to it then there is an uncertainty in height and this would give rise to variation in height), then the infinite pressure would cause the ground to erupt with an infinite force.

I'm not sure this argument works. Depending on how the force drops off with distance, it's quite possible for an infinite number of force vectors to add up to a finite number. Zeno's Paradox etc. etc.
I don't know that Zeno's paradox applies here. First of all Zeno's Paradox deals with halving the initial distance while distance extends. Secondly, Zeno's paradox occurs only because of an incorrect application of maths (which was fixed with the introduction of Calculus).
Everyday household experimentation.

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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2008, 06:26:18 PM »
I don't know that Zeno's paradox applies here. First of all Zeno's Paradox deals with halving the initial distance while distance extends. Secondly, Zeno's paradox occurs only because of an incorrect application of maths (which was fixed with the introduction of Calculus).

You are dumb and post dumb things.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2008, 11:29:05 PM »
It seems as if you have posted something quite irrelevant. First, you cannot just write "you are dumb and post dumb things" without motivating why. Second, writing such things is likely going to make you very impopular. Third, there is no reason why you should insult someone - if you think or know that someone is wrong, correct that person or explain to him/her how it really is.
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2008, 11:48:37 PM »
You are dumb and post dumb things.

This is rather ironic coming from the same person that posted this...

It's a holographic projection into the upper atmoplane.

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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #75 on: November 27, 2008, 03:48:41 AM »
It seems as if you have posted something quite irrelevant. First, you cannot just write "you are dumb and post dumb things" without motivating why.

Really? That's funny, I could have sworn I just did.

Second, writing such things is likely going to make you very impopular.

The word is "unpopular". Also, I don't care.

Third, there is no reason why you should insult someone - if you think or know that someone is wrong, correct that person or explain to him/her how it really is.

I would, if Edtharan didn't talk down to the rest of us when discussing basic physics. If he didn't act as though he knew it all, I'd be more forgiving when he made a mistake.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2008, 06:58:54 AM »
It seems as if you have posted something quite irrelevant. First, you cannot just write "you are dumb and post dumb things" without motivating why.

Really? That's funny, I could have sworn I just did.

Second, writing such things is likely going to make you very impopular.

The word is "unpopular". Also, I don't care.

Third, there is no reason why you should insult someone - if you think or know that someone is wrong, correct that person or explain to him/her how it really is.

I would, if Edtharan didn't talk down to the rest of us when discussing basic physics. If he didn't act as though he knew it all, I'd be more forgiving when he made a mistake.

Thank you for correcting my way of spelling! Rather than actually accepting the criticism, you had to prove me wrong, somehow. Well done!

Also, you seem to be a very empathical and social being using your "Also, I don't care" when someone states that you are rude.

Thank you for your time,

Have a nice day,

- Earthquakesdontbend
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2008, 05:48:11 PM »
It seems as if you have posted something quite irrelevant. First, you cannot just write "you are dumb and post dumb things" without motivating why.

Really? That's funny, I could have sworn I just did.

Second, writing such things is likely going to make you very impopular.

The word is "unpopular". Also, I don't care.

Third, there is no reason why you should insult someone - if you think or know that someone is wrong, correct that person or explain to him/her how it really is.

I would, if Edtharan didn't talk down to the rest of us when discussing basic physics. If he didn't act as though he knew it all, I'd be more forgiving when he made a mistake.
Well I started off not talking down, but then as I went on you demonstrated less and less knowledge about the basic sciences. So I had to simplify things more and more.

Also, just because you think I am talking down, does not mean that I am wrong.

Also, if you feel like insulting me some more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem  ;D

Yes, doing so just weakens you position and show that you have no valid arguments against the points I ma making. Keep doing it, it is only supporting me.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2008, 05:59:35 AM »
I'd say that insults are -1 on the discussion ladder, where 0 is just plain opinion. +1 is motivating, +2 is argumentation and +3 is mutual understanding.

-2 is personal assault (that is, a worse kind of insult) and ignorance, -3 is automatical ignorance (that is, ignoring one kind of person automatically every time) and -4 is the use of violence.

We should really use this system to keep track of our "discussion points"...  ;D
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2008, 07:14:36 AM »
Yes, doing so just weakens you position and show that you have no valid arguments against the points I ma making. Keep doing it, it is only supporting me.

You've made points? ???
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2008, 03:59:16 PM »
Yes, doing so just weakens you position and show that you have no valid arguments against the points I ma making. Keep doing it, it is only supporting me.

You've made points? ???
Yes:

  • The Geodesics measured for the Surface of the Earth indicate that it is Round.
  • That the wave patters produced by Earthquakes could only exist on a round Earth.
  • That the material that is supposed to be on the bottom of the FE cylinder would violate its own existence (ie the physics that allow it to support the Earth would also cause it to collapse into a black hole.
  • Holograms are transmission viewing - that is you have to look through the film that the hologram is on to be able to see it. You can't "Project" it.
  • QM would not allow a repulsive force to become an attractive force powerful enough to counteract the repulsive force posited by one of the FEers in this thread
  • I don't need to rely on insults (Ad Hominem arguments) to make my points

Should I go on (and these were just in this thread).
Everyday household experimentation.