Profiting from a conspiracy

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2008, 05:53:05 PM »
"raw materials"?  as in metal?  plastic? silicon?

No sorry, if Lockeed (just an example) is contracted to build a spaceship, then they are the ones that build it.  They may subcontract for certain parts, such as a programmer for software development, they will order raw materials for the project as well, but those things would be handled by Lockeed.  In other words, if Lockeed needs to contract out others to complete their own project with NASA, then Lockeed handles the payment to the subcontractors, not the government.  However the money used to pay the subcontracts will come from the same money paid to Lockeed from the government.

NASA does not own any companies.  Even the organizations they give grants too, comes from us, not from NASA.  The only money NASA employees actually do get to see is their own paycheck, which also comes from Treasury.

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Raist

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2008, 06:06:31 PM »
"raw materials"?  as in metal?  plastic? silicon?

No sorry, if Lockeed (just an example) is contracted to build a spaceship, then they are the ones that build it.  They may subcontract for certain parts, such as a programmer for software development, they will order raw materials for the project as well, but those things would be handled by Lockeed.  In other words, if Lockeed needs to contract out others to complete their own project with NASA, then Lockeed handles the payment to the subcontractors, not the government.  However the money used to pay the subcontracts will come from the same money paid to Lockeed from the government.

NASA does not own any companies.  Even the organizations they give grants too, comes from us, not from NASA.  The only money NASA employees actually do get to see is their own paycheck, which also comes from Treasury.

I understand this. Lockheed, "buys" materials from a dumby NASA company. Lockheed is getting money to make nothing. If they want the money to continue, they send some back to NASA.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2008, 06:15:30 PM »
What companies does NASA own?

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Raist

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2008, 06:36:49 PM »
What companies does NASA own?
It'd be a pretty crappy operation if I knew anything about it other than educated guesses. I'm hardly claiming to have privileged info.

Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2008, 06:42:11 PM »
What companies does NASA own?
It'd be a pretty crappy operation if I knew anything about it other than educated guesses. I'm hardly claiming to have privileged info.
Ok, so what are your educated guesses?
Everyday household experimentation.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2008, 06:42:53 PM »
Why would NASA need to own any companies? The companies they're paying are real companies building real parts for NASA's space props. Government Contractors from Lockheed and Northrop Grumman are there in NASA facilities in little white rooms, building whatever they're told to build to a certain classified schematic and then putting it in the box when they're done.

You guys are assuming that NASA is using Government Contractors to build actual equipment to be used in space. They're not. Government Contractors build NASA's many museum and rocketry props.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2008, 07:08:55 PM »
Tom, you are dodging the issue.

Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2008, 09:23:55 PM »
Why would NASA need to own any companies? The companies they're paying are real companies building real parts for NASA's space props. Government Contractors from Lockheed and Northrop Grumman are there in NASA facilities in little white rooms, building whatever they're told to build to a certain classified schematic and then putting it in the box when they're done.

You guys are assuming that NASA is using Government Contractors to build actual equipment to be used in space. They're not. Government Contractors build NASA's many museum and rocketry props.
So Tom, if NASA is not in on the conspiracy to make a profit, what is their motivation for falsifying data?
Everyday household experimentation.

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Raist

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2008, 06:50:52 AM »
The very fact you think they don't touch it is necessary for the illusion. The same way with kickbacks. They ok you getting money, then you give them a portion back.

Wow, that's a step up from Tom's windowless room of engineers building "do-dads". The contractors are actually giving kickbacks to NASA?! Holy shit!

Hows that any different? They just think NASA is skimming off the top.

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Raist

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2008, 07:51:26 AM »
The very fact you think they don't touch it is necessary for the illusion. The same way with kickbacks. They ok you getting money, then you give them a portion back.

Wow, that's a step up from Tom's windowless room of engineers building "do-dads". The contractors are actually giving kickbacks to NASA?! Holy shit!

Hows that any different? They just think NASA is skimming off the top.

Well it complicates the whole thing immensly. Toms defence has always been that only a few people need to know. Now every NASA contracting firm is expected to put in ludicrously high bids for projects resulting in worthless tat, and then punt the excess back to NASA.

Now the contractors know of, and are expected to take part in, a conspiracy which benefits them very little. Curiouser and curiouser.

No. They do not know about the conspiracy.

Skimming off the top /= worldwide conspiracy about the shape of the Earth.

As for contradicting what tom said, if anyone knew details of the conspiracy, it'd be a shitty conspiracy. These are all just guesses.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2008, 07:52:45 AM »
Well it complicates the whole thing immensly. Toms defence has always been that only a few people need to know. Now every NASA contracting firm is expected to put in ludicrously high bids for projects resulting in worthless tat, and then punt the excess back to NASA.

Now the contractors know of, and are expected to take part in, a conspiracy which benefits them very little. Curiouser and curiouser.

Could not have put it better, finally we are getting to the subject of this topic.  Something I would add, if NASA does have any "puppet" companies, guess who pays them.  It's not NASA, remember, NASA has no taxpayer money they they can touch.  I can tell you they do not fund any "raw material" companies.

The contractors responsible for manufacturing the space shuttle were Boeing, who was responsible for the Solid Rocket Booster design, Lockheed Martin, who was responsible for designing the External Tank, and Rockwell International, who designed the orbiter.


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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2008, 07:54:51 AM »
No. They do not know about the conspiracy.

Skimming off the top /= worldwide conspiracy about the shape of the Earth.

As for contradicting what tom said, if anyone knew details of the conspiracy, it'd be a shitty conspiracy. These are all just guesses.

How do they skim off the top???  The money is wired directly to them (the contractor), we do not divert some funds to NASA.  These contracts are public too, do you think their accountants would find it odd that they are not claiming as much revenue as they were contracted for?  Or worse, they claim more revenue than what they are actually making.

They have to make public all this information to investors and stock holders.  Doing what you are suggesting would bankrupt the company, what idiot would invest in them.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 08:05:58 AM by ragnarr »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2008, 08:17:29 AM »
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How do they skim off the top???  The money is wired directly to them (the contractor), we do not divert some funds to NASA.  These contracts are public too, do you think their accountants would find it odd that they are not claiming as much revenue as they were contracted for?  Or worse, they claim more revenue than what they are actually making.

If the money trail were public, then it would be easy for you to find and account for the spending of every NASA dollar, wouldn't it?

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markjo

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2008, 08:24:42 AM »
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How do they skim off the top???  The money is wired directly to them (the contractor), we do not divert some funds to NASA.  These contracts are public too, do you think their accountants would find it odd that they are not claiming as much revenue as they were contracted for?  Or worse, they claim more revenue than what they are actually making.

If the money trail were public, then it would be easy for you to find and account for the spending of every NASA dollar, wouldn't it?

What about the numerous GAO audits of NASA and their contractors?  Or is the GAO part of the conspiracy too?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2008, 08:32:28 AM »
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How do they skim off the top???  The money is wired directly to them (the contractor), we do not divert some funds to NASA.  These contracts are public too, do you think their accountants would find it odd that they are not claiming as much revenue as they were contracted for?  Or worse, they claim more revenue than what they are actually making.

If the money trail were public, then it would be easy for you to find and account for the spending of every NASA dollar, wouldn't it?

Account numbers are not public, but their profits and revenue are.  You remember what happened to Enron when they tried to hide their profits right?  What happens to a company who says they are making far more than they actually are.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 08:33:59 AM by ragnarr »

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markjo

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2008, 08:41:25 AM »
Account numbers are not public, but their profits and revenue are.  You remember what happened to Enron when they tried to hide their profits right?  What happens to a company who says they are making far more than they actually are.

Hmmm... I thought that Enron (and Worldcom) got busted for hiding their lack of profits (i.e. humongous unreported losses).  Otherwise, yeah, pretty much what he said.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2008, 08:58:27 AM »
Yeah your right, I didn't proof read that very well, but by profits I did mean "lack of".

The point is Enron did this in order to keep their stock price artificially high, so the investors will keep pouring money in and the execs can reap the benefits.  Eventually the bubble pops, and when that happens the stock holders usually get screwed, and the execs go to jail.  A company cannot operate in this manner for a very long time.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 09:00:56 AM by ragnarr »

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Raist

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2008, 09:14:33 AM »
No. They do not know about the conspiracy.

Skimming off the top /= worldwide conspiracy about the shape of the Earth.

As for contradicting what tom said, if anyone knew details of the conspiracy, it'd be a shitty conspiracy. These are all just guesses.

How do they skim off the top???  The money is wired directly to them (the contractor), we do not divert some funds to NASA.  These contracts are public too, do you think their accountants would find it odd that they are not claiming as much revenue as they were contracted for?  Or worse, they claim more revenue than what they are actually making.

They have to make public all this information to investors and stock holders.  Doing what you are suggesting would bankrupt the company, what idiot would invest in them.

uhhh.... Nasa contrancts them to do more work than they actually have them do. They give them 100k for 100 dollars of work. Then the company funnells 50k back to NASA, by "buying raw materials" from a dumb company NASA owns, that gives enough materials to make 100 dollars worth of the product.

Have you never looked into money laundering?

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markjo

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2008, 09:44:00 AM »
No. They do not know about the conspiracy.

Skimming off the top /= worldwide conspiracy about the shape of the Earth.

As for contradicting what tom said, if anyone knew details of the conspiracy, it'd be a shitty conspiracy. These are all just guesses.

How do they skim off the top???  The money is wired directly to them (the contractor), we do not divert some funds to NASA.  These contracts are public too, do you think their accountants would find it odd that they are not claiming as much revenue as they were contracted for?  Or worse, they claim more revenue than what they are actually making.

They have to make public all this information to investors and stock holders.  Doing what you are suggesting would bankrupt the company, what idiot would invest in them.

uhhh.... Nasa contrancts them to do more work than they actually have them do. They give them 100k for 100 dollars of work. Then the company funnells 50k back to NASA, by "buying raw materials" from a dumb company NASA owns, that gives enough materials to make 100 dollars worth of the product.

Have you never looked into money laundering?

And this is usually revealed during audits of NASA and its contractors.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2008, 10:14:07 AM »
uhhh.... Nasa contrancts them to do more work than they actually have them do. They give them 100k for 100 dollars of work.

uhh, the point is if they were contracted to get paid 100k, then they somehow give NASA back 80k, then their profits would be seriously inflated.  The company would collapse if it says that it reports making x amount, and is only making 1/5th of that.  See Enron.  Any raw materials that they buy would be specifically for the project and would be part of the 100k they were paid in the first place.  Additional Raw materials bought would could not be justified, its business suicide.

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Have you never looked into money laundering?
Money laundering is something completely different, that is when you are making money from illegal activity (like drugs), but you hide it by making it seem like they are part of the profits of a pizza company.  An audit will reveal this easily by looking at their costs and revenues.  Profit = cost - revenue, but if the profit is far more than that then it reveals they have a separate money source.

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from a dumb company NASA owns,

Again, any company that NASA owns would be funded by treasury, not NASA.  NASA does not fund steel mines.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2008, 10:15:13 AM »
No. They do not know about the conspiracy.

Skimming off the top /= worldwide conspiracy about the shape of the Earth.

As for contradicting what tom said, if anyone knew details of the conspiracy, it'd be a shitty conspiracy. These are all just guesses.

How do they skim off the top???  The money is wired directly to them (the contractor), we do not divert some funds to NASA.  These contracts are public too, do you think their accountants would find it odd that they are not claiming as much revenue as they were contracted for?  Or worse, they claim more revenue than what they are actually making.

They have to make public all this information to investors and stock holders.  Doing what you are suggesting would bankrupt the company, what idiot would invest in them.

uhhh.... Nasa contrancts them to do more work than they actually have them do. They give them 100k for 100 dollars of work. Then the company funnells 50k back to NASA, by "buying raw materials" from a dumb company NASA owns, that gives enough materials to make 100 dollars worth of the product.

Have you never looked into money laundering?

Hello. The plop thickens.

Contractor: OK That will cost you 100 dollars
NASA: Bill me 100K
C: That's insane!
N: Do it now!
C: Why?
N: Teh money!
C: That's not an answer!
N: Look you bill me for 100K, but you do 100 dollars work. See? Nudge nudge.
C: Oh ok.
N: Now give me 50K back.
C: Why?
N: Teh money! Now do it!
C: Why didn't you just ask for a bill for...
N: Teh money fool.
C: Um. OK.

Inspector: Now it says here you bought a box of 100 nails for 100K. That seems like a lot of money. Can you show me these expensive nails please?
N+C: FUUUUCK!

LOL!  You have a great way of putting things.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2008, 10:23:17 AM »
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Inspector: Now it says here you bought a box of 100 nails for 100K. That seems like a lot of money. Can you show me these expensive nails please?
N+C: FUUUUCK!

Stock Holders:  It says here that your revenue from this contract was 100k, but it seems you only have 50k from it?  Oh I see, you bought 50k worth of steel that you didn't need.  Well where is the steel?  Maybe we could use it for the next contract.  Whats that?  You never actually got any steel? Sell Sell Sell.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2008, 11:47:18 AM »
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What about the numerous GAO audits of NASA and their contractors?  Or is the GAO part of the conspiracy too?

How does the GAO know that the data NASA is providing them real data?

What makes you think that the government does a thorough audit of their spending at all? Don't see the news reports about how the military occasionally loses a couple trillion here and there?

How do you know that NASA is audited properly? Some organizations seem to be able to avoid audits all together. For example, since its inception the Federal Reserve has never been audited by congress. If the government can't even keep track of the very organization which makes and distributes the money, what makes you think that they can keep track of how NASA spends the money?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 11:48:53 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2008, 12:24:37 PM »
It's not true that the Federal Reserve has never been audited. It's not true that NASA has never been audited. Google is your friend Tom Bishop. Or perhaps in this case, your enemy.

If the government does do audits of its departments they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.

How did the Pentagon manage to lose 2.3 trillion dollars? Did someone sit down and lose it in a couch somewhere?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 12:27:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2008, 12:39:57 PM »
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What about the numerous GAO audits of NASA and their contractors?  Or is the GAO part of the conspiracy too?

How does the GAO know that the data NASA is providing them real data?

What makes you think that the government does a thorough audit of their spending at all? Don't see the news reports about how the military occasionally loses a couple trillion here and there?

How do you know that NASA is audited properly? Some organizations seem to be able to avoid audits all together. For example, since its inception the Federal Reserve has never been audited by congress. If the government can't even keep track of the very organization which makes and distributes the money, what makes you think that they can keep track of how NASA spends the money?

The GAO never audited the fed...  Well, it's off topic, but since you asked:
http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/locate?searched=1&o=0&order_by=rel&search_type=publications&keyword=federal+reserve+audit&Submit=Search

Here's something that might interest you.
Quote from: http://www.gao.gov/products/B-203576
Comments were requested on H.R. 2322, a bill that would authorize and direct GAO to audit the Federal Reserve Board, the Federal Advisory Council, the Federal Open Market Committee, and Federal Reserve banks and their branches. The bill would broaden the authority of GAO to audit the Federal Reserve System. Under the Accounting and Auditing Act of 1950, the authority of GAO to audit the Federal Reserve is limited.

But back to the topic at hand:
Quote from: http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive04/gaoarch_083004.html
The U.S. General Accountability Office (GAO) is launching a series of audits and investigations into NASA's spending practices and hopes to find space agency employees willing to offer information-- anonymously if necessary. The GAO, the investigative arm of the U.S. Congress, said it is reaching out to NASA employees who might have concerns about the agency's spending practices or its billing interactions with contractors, but are afraid to speak up.

Hmm... The GAO looking at NASA's spending practices.  Imagine that.  Looks like a perfect opportunity for someone to blow the whistle on the conspiracy's dirty spending habits.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 12:49:39 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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markjo

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2008, 01:00:54 PM »
It's not true that the Federal Reserve has never been audited. It's not true that NASA has never been audited. Google is your friend Tom Bishop. Or perhaps in this case, your enemy.

If the government does do audits of its departments they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.

How did the Pentagon manage to lose 2.3 trillion dollars? Did someone sit down and lose it in a couch somewhere?

Can you cite that story from somewhere that isn't a crackpot news site? The 2.3 trillion seems to refer back to 2000. Other than that its all just babble.

Besides, your argument was, generally: "Government departments aren't audited." Then you cite an article in which a government department audit found irregularities. Nice one.

Well, it seems that any real news on the missing 2.3 trillion is lost in all of the static buzz trying to tie the Sept. 10 announcement to the 9/11 attacks.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2008, 01:18:27 PM »
It's not true that the Federal Reserve has never been audited. It's not true that NASA has never been audited. Google is your friend Tom Bishop. Or perhaps in this case, your enemy.

If the government does do audits of its departments they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.

How did the Pentagon manage to lose 2.3 trillion dollars? Did someone sit down and lose it in a couch somewhere?

First off, this statement in the article shows that we do audit the government.
Quote
3. America?s war economy has no idea where its money goes
Read Portfolio magazine?s special report ?The Pentagon?s $1 Trillion Problem.? The Pentagon?s 2007 budget of $440 billion included $16 billion to operate and upgrade its financial system. Unfortunately ?the defense department has spent billions to fix its antiquated financial systems [but] still has no idea where its money goes.?
And it gets worse: Back ?in 2000, Defense?s inspector general told Congress that his auditors stopped counting after finding $2.3 trillion in unsupported entries.? Yikes, our war machine has no records for $2.3 trillion! How can we trust anything they say?
4. America?s war economy is totally ?unmanageable?

Second, not one citation in that article, and the page is called Alternative News, with a backwards N.  If we linked something like this to you would you take it seriously?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2008, 01:20:02 PM »
In addition, I believe we were talking about contractors not the defense department.  How would contractors be able to hide the fact that they aren't making as much as they are reporting?  Eventually it will get to the point where their bank accounts will be empty even though their books say they have plenty of money.  Exactly what happened to Enron.

Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2008, 11:20:44 PM »
What makes you think that the government does a thorough audit of their spending at all? Don't see the news reports about how the military occasionally loses a couple trillion here and there?

Must have missed that one on the news.  Since a trillion dollars is more than the Defense Department budget for several years, I have a feeling there is an exaggeration there.


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How do you know that NASA is audited properly? Some organizations seem to be able to avoid audits all together. For example, since its inception the Federal Reserve has never been audited by congress. If the government can't even keep track of the very organization which makes and distributes the money, what makes you think that they can keep track of how NASA spends the money?

Well, since the Federal Reserve gets audited regularly by multiple organizations, including the GAO, Congress and private accounting firms, that shows that the Government does keep track of its money (http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/flaherty/flaherty6.html).  Since they can annually review the Fed's finances, NASA is probably well within their ability as well.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 11:22:34 PM by Rig Navigator »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Profiting from a conspiracy
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2008, 11:24:46 PM »
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Must have missed that one on the news.  Since a trillion dollars is more than the Defense Department budget for several years, I have a feeling there is an exaggeration there.

The government "misplaces" money all the time.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/05/18/MN251738.DTL

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy/PentaLoses.html

That's just the money we hear about.

And don't forget; NASA was originally created as a military organization and funded by the DOD, which puts them right in the middle of easy street.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 11:27:54 PM by Tom Bishop »