Poll

Should homosexual couples have the right to marriage in the United States?

Yes
44 (77.2%)
No
13 (22.8%)

Total Members Voted: 55

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Proposition 8

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Emir Parkreiner

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #180 on: November 18, 2008, 06:44:26 PM »
I don't think separate is equal, but it's the best gays can hope for in California at this time.
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #181 on: November 18, 2008, 07:38:26 PM »
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 18, 2008, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: ragnarr on November 17, 2008, 08:03:05 PM
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 17, 2008, 09:22:36 AM
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 17, 2008, 09:17:16 AM
So what's the argument for making it illegal and furthering political discrimation against a minority?
I just don't think its necessary. I'd be fine with gay marriage being allowed but I don't expect it to be legalized in, say, Saudi Arabia. The same goes with America, and if the public doesn't want it then there is nothing wrong with an identical legal arrangement with different name.


Read the 14th amendment and what it stands for.  Separate but equal laws were found to be illegal by the supreme court.
Read the DOMA.

Oh yes, because laws are just. Always, or else the government wouldn't make them. They are all knowing after all.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #182 on: November 19, 2008, 03:03:10 PM »
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 18, 2008, 06:44:26 PM
I don't think separate is equal.
So why separate gays? Do you support unjust discrimination?
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Wendy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #183 on: November 19, 2008, 03:05:25 PM »
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 19, 2008, 03:03:10 PM
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 18, 2008, 06:44:26 PM
I don't think separate is equal.
So why separate gays? Do you support unjust discrimination?

Possibly not, in his opinion it might be justified. ::)
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Quote from: Wendy on December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #184 on: November 19, 2008, 03:07:37 PM »
Well if that is a case, I openly invite an explanation for the justification.

...I should just copy and paste a list of all possible fallacies not to use, and then bold the specific ones inside a quote box when a reason is given.
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Cinlef

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #185 on: November 19, 2008, 03:15:15 PM »
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 19, 2008, 03:03:10 PM
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 18, 2008, 06:44:26 PM
I don't think separate is equal.
So why separate gays? Do you support unjust discrimination?

To be fair he said

Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 18, 2008, 06:44:26 PM
I don't think separate is equal, but it's the best gays can hope for in California at this time.

Which can be interpreted as meaning that that do to the lack of public support for gay marriage civil unions are a necessary intermediate step before total legal equality.

There is a difference between being a political realist and being happy with the political reality.

A Machiavellian
Cinlef
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Trekky0623

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #186 on: November 20, 2008, 06:21:08 AM »
I stared at that for a while an decided that yes, I would be an asshole.


Quote from: Cinlef on November 19, 2008, 03:15:15 PM
Which can be interpreted as meaning that that due to the lack of public support for gay marriage civil unions are a necessary intermediate step before total legal equality.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #187 on: November 20, 2008, 11:09:30 AM »
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 18, 2008, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: ragnarr on November 17, 2008, 08:03:05 PM
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 17, 2008, 09:22:36 AM
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 17, 2008, 09:17:16 AM
So what's the argument for making it illegal and furthering political discrimation against a minority?
I just don't think its necessary. I'd be fine with gay marriage being allowed but I don't expect it to be legalized in, say, Saudi Arabia. The same goes with America, and if the public doesn't want it then there is nothing wrong with an identical legal arrangement with different name.


Read the 14th amendment and what it stands for.  Separate but equal laws were found to be illegal by the supreme court.
Read the DOMA.

Im pretty sure DOMA is unconstitutional.  The full faith and Credit clause states the following:
Quote
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

I don't see anything in that statement giving congress the power to legislate which Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be recognized, only the manner in which they are recognized.

Of course the supreme court has pretty much been on a partisan leash for the past 100 years.  But laws such as DOMA are not constitutional when the constitution is interpreted in plain English (the language it was written in).

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #188 on: November 20, 2008, 11:13:23 AM »
Quote from: ragnarr on November 20, 2008, 11:09:30 AM
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 18, 2008, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: ragnarr on November 17, 2008, 08:03:05 PM
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 17, 2008, 09:22:36 AM
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 17, 2008, 09:17:16 AM
So what's the argument for making it illegal and furthering political discrimation against a minority?
I just don't think its necessary. I'd be fine with gay marriage being allowed but I don't expect it to be legalized in, say, Saudi Arabia. The same goes with America, and if the public doesn't want it then there is nothing wrong with an identical legal arrangement with different name.


Read the 14th amendment and what it stands for.  Separate but equal laws were found to be illegal by the supreme court.
Read the DOMA.

Im pretty sure DOMA is unconstitutional.  The full faith and Credit clause states the following:
Quote
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

I don't see anything in that statement giving congress the power to legislate which Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be recognized, only the manner in which they are recognized.

Of course the supreme court has pretty much been on a partisan leash for the past 100 years.  But laws such as DOMA are not constitutional when the constitution is interpreted in plain English (the language it was written in).



Looks like somebody agrees with me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal

DOMA and the Faith and Credit Clause are mentioned at the bottom of the page.  Hopefully Obama will repeal this.

Quote
American constitutional scholars have debated whether DOMA violates the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution and whether the federal government has the power to regulate marriage at all, since marriage law has been reserved to the states since the formation of the US.[citation needed] President-elect Barack Obama's political platform includes full repeal of the DOMA.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #189 on: November 20, 2008, 11:53:22 AM »
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 18, 2008, 04:44:12 PM
I'm curious, do you agree with the premise of the 14 amendment? Do you believe separate is equal?
The DOMA is a perfect example that bad laws are passed all the time.

I know you didn't ask me this personally but I want to give my answer.

Yes I certainly do agree with the 14th amendment.  The original Bill of Rights only applied to the federal government, not the states.  The 14th amendment passes those restrictions down to the states.  Now states have to respect the first, second, fourth, ninth and so on.

In addition it requires that all people receive equal protections under the law, this was originally put in to stop Jim Crow laws.  I believe this applies to more than just racial equality, but gender and social class as well.  The latter of those is what is violated more than anything else in my opinion.
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #190 on: November 20, 2008, 12:12:08 PM »
Quote from: Raist on November 14, 2008, 02:41:51 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 14, 2008, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 14, 2008, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 14, 2008, 12:37:51 PM
I dont have a stance yet.

I have no idea what it is.

That hardly prevented you from forming one on gay marriage.

How the fuck would you know that>

I never gave one single reason for my stance. I just stated what it was.

Can you be anymore disingenous than that?

Exactly. You are not gay, yet you for some reason care whether they marry or not. You know nothing about being gay, you don't know the cause, you just have a built in opinion.

I love how you just assume shit.  I said I had no problem with the civil union. What else do you want me to say.


Because Im not a woman does that mean I dont know what makes women women?  I guess that since I am not a woman there is no way I could ever understand how a tampon is inserted and why. 

Lame argument
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 12:19:05 PM by Shaydawg »
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #191 on: November 20, 2008, 12:19:22 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 14, 2008, 02:41:51 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 14, 2008, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 14, 2008, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 14, 2008, 12:37:51 PM
I dont have a stance yet.

I have no idea what it is.

That hardly prevented you from forming one on gay marriage.

How the fuck would you know that>

I never gave one single reason for my stance. I just stated what it was.

Can you be anymore disingenous than that?

Exactly. You are not gay, yet you for some reason care whether they marry or not. You know nothing about being gay, you don't know the cause, you just have a built in opinion.

I love how you just assume shit.  I said I had no problem with the civil union. What else do you want me to say.


Im not a woman does that mean I dont know what makes women women?  I guess that since I am not a woman there is no way I could ever understand how a tampon is inserted and why. 

Lame argument

No. You may understand how it is inserted, but you know nothing about stomach cramps, hell if you are claiming you know women, you are ten steps ahead of every guy here.

I also say you shouldn't have an opinion on whether gays could marry or not. How can we decide that a whole section of society, should have to hide the person they love. Imagine if you were in their place. You loved a girl but it wasn't accepted in society. She is your world your everything, but if your family finds out, they'll disown you. People tell you you are going to hell when they see you two hold hands. People say you decided to love her, (I find this ridiculous I never chose to like girls, they just have this habit of forcing me to fall for them) and they say because you chose to like women, you can't marry her. You two can have something else, a civil union for your disgusting affair.

I say you don't know what it's like to live the life of a gay person. I say I don't know what it's like to be gay. So i have no right to tell them they can't get married.

And could you tell me what I assumed? I know you are ok with civil unions, that is bullshit. You and I both know it. It would lead to decades of discrimination, and segregation, because simply by using one term or the other the government could make laws only apply to gay or straight couples.

As for your argument, that is hilariously tragic. Next time a girl is angry because she has her period, tell her you know how she feels, you know where a tampon goes after all.
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #192 on: November 20, 2008, 12:29:25 PM »
Quote from: Raist on November 20, 2008, 12:19:22 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 14, 2008, 02:41:51 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 14, 2008, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 14, 2008, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 14, 2008, 12:37:51 PM
I dont have a stance yet.

I have no idea what it is.

That hardly prevented you from forming one on gay marriage.

How the fuck would you know that>

I never gave one single reason for my stance. I just stated what it was.

Can you be anymore disingenous than that?

Exactly. You are not gay, yet you for some reason care whether they marry or not. You know nothing about being gay, you don't know the cause, you just have a built in opinion.

I love how you just assume shit.  I said I had no problem with the civil union. What else do you want me to say.


Im not a woman does that mean I dont know what makes women women?  I guess that since I am not a woman there is no way I could ever understand how a tampon is inserted and why. 

Lame argument

No. You may understand how it is inserted, but you know nothing about stomach cramps, hell if you are claiming you know women, you are ten steps ahead of every guy here.

I also say you shouldn't have an opinion on whether gays could marry or not. How can we decide that a whole section of society, should have to hide the person they love. Imagine if you were in their place. You loved a girl but it wasn't accepted in society. She is your world your everything, but if your family finds out, they'll disown you. People tell you you are going to hell when they see you two hold hands. People say you decided to love her, (I find this ridiculous I never chose to like girls, they just have this habit of forcing me to fall for them) and they say because you chose to like women, you can't marry her. You two can have something else, a civil union for your disgusting affair.

I say you don't know what it's like to live the life of a gay person. I say I don't know what it's like to be gay. So i have no right to tell them they can't get married.

And could you tell me what I assumed? I know you are ok with civil unions, that is bullshit. You and I both know it. It would lead to decades of discrimination, and segregation, because simply by using one term or the other the government could make laws only apply to gay or straight couples.

As for your argument, that is hilariously tragic. Next time a girl is angry because she has her period, tell her you know how she feels, you know where a tampon goes after all.

I think I clearly agreed that civil unions would be used to define ALL marriages not just Gay marriages like you keep implying. If that was the case then we would all be equal under the law. And the term marriage is something individuals could have definded by their own beliefs or have recognized by their churches.

And I am not saying that I completely understand women but there is enough research out there which defines what makes us different. I have the intellectual capacity to read that material and come to my own understanding of women.

As for your scenario of me loving a woman and being told I cant by society, well that is about as lame as it gets.  The NUMBER 1 purpose of sexual intercourse if for reproduction. When man on man sex can produce children then I might change my stance.  No one is saying that a man cant love another man, I just disagree that they were born to have sex with each other in orfacies that are not natural or used for reproduction. I cant make any logical sense out of why people cant understand that.

Again, I have no hard feelings towards gay men and women. I dont wish any ill will on them. They have the right to chose how they want to live their life as long as it is not hurting others just as I do. I shoudl not have to surender my religious beliefs because they dont share the same beliefs right?
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #193 on: November 20, 2008, 12:39:16 PM »
So what is the difference of the government claiming all marriages are civil unions, or just allowing people to marry?

Knowing facts /= understanding.

As for them not being born to reproduce. Who said love has anything to do with reproduction. In many cultures it is accepted that people have a spouse to procreate with, but they know that their friends are the people that they share their intimate moments with.

Your arguments are all based on you not being gay. The situation is ridiculous that you would love someone that you can not be with, that is only because you aren't in the situation. I maintain you do not understand, and therefore should not judge.
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #194 on: November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM »
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.

So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.

Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.


And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #195 on: November 20, 2008, 12:57:57 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.
doesn't matter due to the seperation of church and state, marriage is a secular institution regulated by law. Not a religious event.
So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.
Yet what does this accomplish? Except to change the name of something that has been around forever. It is just a dumb idea pandering to religious idiots.
Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.
Claiming you are african american is perfectly legal and can be defended, scientists say that humans started in africa, this would mean we are all of African descent, but you would be ignoring the intent of the question and just answering it to the letter which is a rather idiotic thing to do. The problem with this analogy is the homosexuals aren't claiming to be straight, they are just getting married.

And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.
Your religious views are in no way effected by two men being married. Unless you are one of these men, if you are scared that you would succumb to temptation and marry a guy, then I could understand your fear due to religion.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Why should your personal tenets be enforced on others? They are personal. Intercourse may have a "natural purpose" that very word is funny to anyone who really knows biology. Life does not have a purpose, to paraphrase someone "it does what it must because it can."

again. No. You do not understand it. Quit trying to make decisions on things you know nothing about.
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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #196 on: November 20, 2008, 12:58:49 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.

So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.

Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.


And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Do you agree with non human gay sex? As there have been animals having same sex relationships since well before we humans appeared.
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #197 on: November 20, 2008, 01:11:30 PM »
Quote from: Raist on November 20, 2008, 12:57:57 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.
doesn't matter due to the seperation of church and state, marriage is a secular institution regulated by law. Not a religious event.
So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.
Yet what does this accomplish? Except to change the name of something that has been around forever. It is just a dumb idea pandering to religious idiots.
Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.
Claiming you are african american is perfectly legal and can be defended, scientists say that humans started in africa, this would mean we are all of African descent, but you would be ignoring the intent of the question and just answering it to the letter which is a rather idiotic thing to do. The problem with this analogy is the homosexuals aren't claiming to be straight, they are just getting married.

And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.
Your religious views are in no way effected by two men being married. Unless you are one of these men, if you are scared that you would succumb to temptation and marry a guy, then I could understand your fear due to religion.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Why should your personal tenets be enforced on others? They are personal. Intercourse may have a "natural purpose" that very word is funny to anyone who really knows biology. Life does not have a purpose, to paraphrase someone "it does what it must because it can."

again. No. You do not understand it. Quit trying to make decisions on things you know nothing about.

Funny that you say for me to quit talking about things I know nothing about when you yourself know nothing about it.

You missed my point on about 3 of the responses you answered. Especially the one about me claiming to be "BLACK" not just African American.  My point was about homosexuals claiming they have the right to "marry" even though they have no historical data to back up this right.

Religious idiots? LMAO. What a douche bag you have to be to even say something like that. I love how people on this board constantly claim their vast knowledge on so many subjects with no viable proof for anything they say. Saying that religious people are idiots because they believe in practice a religion show just how ignorant you are.

Where did I say that my religious views were affected?  I never even came close to saying that.  But it does insult my religion by using a term from my religion to define something that my religion does not agree with.  Whereas a civil union does not offend me one bit.

How do you know that life does not have a purpose? You dont. You are just talking out of your ass again. I dont agree with Atheism but in no way am I ever going to say something as stupid as "I can prove God doesnt exist". If you actually knew how to think openly and honestly you would not make such ridiculous pseudo intellectual claims.

Quoting the words of Socrates in Plato's Apology

Quote
So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. In either know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him.
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #198 on: November 20, 2008, 01:15:32 PM »
Quote from: Dead Kangaroo on November 20, 2008, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.

So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.

Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.


And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Do you agree with non human gay sex? As there have been animals having same sex relationships since well before we humans appeared.

In my beliefs animals are not held accountable for sin. They do not play by the same rules that we as humans do. I believe that humans have a soul whereas animals do not. So the comparison means nothing to me really.

Obviously that is going to be a difference in religious belief for most people and not really worth debating.
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #199 on: November 20, 2008, 01:24:50 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 20, 2008, 12:57:57 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.
doesn't matter due to the seperation of church and state, marriage is a secular institution regulated by law. Not a religious event.
So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.
Yet what does this accomplish? Except to change the name of something that has been around forever. It is just a dumb idea pandering to religious idiots.
Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.
Claiming you are african american is perfectly legal and can be defended, scientists say that humans started in africa, this would mean we are all of African descent, but you would be ignoring the intent of the question and just answering it to the letter which is a rather idiotic thing to do. The problem with this analogy is the homosexuals aren't claiming to be straight, they are just getting married.

And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.
Your religious views are in no way effected by two men being married. Unless you are one of these men, if you are scared that you would succumb to temptation and marry a guy, then I could understand your fear due to religion.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Why should your personal tenets be enforced on others? They are personal. Intercourse may have a "natural purpose" that very word is funny to anyone who really knows biology. Life does not have a purpose, to paraphrase someone "it does what it must because it can."

again. No. You do not understand it. Quit trying to make decisions on things you know nothing about.

Funny that you say for me to quit talking about things I know nothing about when you yourself know nothing about it.

You missed my point on about 3 of the responses you answered. Especially the one about me claiming to be "BLACK" not just African American.  My point was about homosexuals claiming they have the right to "marry" even though they have no historical data to back up this right.

Religious idiots? LMAO. What a douche bag you have to be to even say something like that. I love how people on this board constantly claim their vast knowledge on so many subjects with no viable proof for anything they say. Saying that religious people are idiots because they believe in practice a religion show just how ignorant you are.

Where did I say that my religious views were affected?  I never even came close to saying that.  But it does insult my religion by using a term from my religion to define something that my religion does not agree with.  Whereas a civil union does not offend me one bit.

How do you know that life does not have a purpose? You dont. You are just talking out of your ass again. I dont agree with Atheism but in no way am I ever going to say something as stupid as "I can prove God doesnt exist". If you actually knew how to think openly and honestly you would not make such ridiculous pseudo intellectual claims.

Quoting the words of Socrates in Plato's Apology

Quote
So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. In either know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him.


I believe in god. Please don't assume things. Also christianity did not start marriage, please do not claim ownership of something older than you. I called some people religious idiots. I guess I'll change it to intolerant bigots, at least that one you can't debate. There also used to be homosexual marriage in some countries. The past is not the correct measuring stick for the rights we should give some one. Oppression being tradition does not make it right for the future.

Your idea would kill marriage anyways. Once the government gives up sanctioning marriages it is up for churches. So how long til a gay church starts up and starts marrying people?


Yet this would still discriminate. Atheists. Where would they go for a marriage. Their only option is a church, because marriage is now a religious institution.

You'll come back with something else claiming I am attacking you and ignorant, so I'm done responding. I've blown through most of your points or ignored ones that really didn't make sense, (claiming to be black does not equal marrying a dude, sorry, that analogy made me seriously want to self harm) so feel free to come back with what you will. It's fun to watch you make assumptions.
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #200 on: November 20, 2008, 01:33:03 PM »
Quote from: Raist on November 20, 2008, 01:24:50 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 20, 2008, 12:57:57 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.
doesn't matter due to the seperation of church and state, marriage is a secular institution regulated by law. Not a religious event.
So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.
Yet what does this accomplish? Except to change the name of something that has been around forever. It is just a dumb idea pandering to religious idiots.
Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.
Claiming you are african american is perfectly legal and can be defended, scientists say that humans started in africa, this would mean we are all of African descent, but you would be ignoring the intent of the question and just answering it to the letter which is a rather idiotic thing to do. The problem with this analogy is the homosexuals aren't claiming to be straight, they are just getting married.

And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.
Your religious views are in no way effected by two men being married. Unless you are one of these men, if you are scared that you would succumb to temptation and marry a guy, then I could understand your fear due to religion.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Why should your personal tenets be enforced on others? They are personal. Intercourse may have a "natural purpose" that very word is funny to anyone who really knows biology. Life does not have a purpose, to paraphrase someone "it does what it must because it can."

again. No. You do not understand it. Quit trying to make decisions on things you know nothing about.

Funny that you say for me to quit talking about things I know nothing about when you yourself know nothing about it.

You missed my point on about 3 of the responses you answered. Especially the one about me claiming to be "BLACK" not just African American.  My point was about homosexuals claiming they have the right to "marry" even though they have no historical data to back up this right.

Religious idiots? LMAO. What a douche bag you have to be to even say something like that. I love how people on this board constantly claim their vast knowledge on so many subjects with no viable proof for anything they say. Saying that religious people are idiots because they believe in practice a religion show just how ignorant you are.

Where did I say that my religious views were affected?  I never even came close to saying that.  But it does insult my religion by using a term from my religion to define something that my religion does not agree with.  Whereas a civil union does not offend me one bit.

How do you know that life does not have a purpose? You dont. You are just talking out of your ass again. I dont agree with Atheism but in no way am I ever going to say something as stupid as "I can prove God doesnt exist". If you actually knew how to think openly and honestly you would not make such ridiculous pseudo intellectual claims.

Quoting the words of Socrates in Plato's Apology

Quote
So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. In either know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him.


I believe in god. Please don't assume things. Also christianity did not start marriage, please do not claim ownership of something older than you. I called some people religious idiots. I guess I'll change it to intolerant bigots, at least that one you can't debate. There also used to be homosexual marriage in some countries. The past is not the correct measuring stick for the rights we should give some one. Oppression being tradition does not make it right for the future.

Your idea would kill marriage anyways. Once the government gives up sanctioning marriages it is up for churches. So how long til a gay church starts up and starts marrying people?


Yet this would still discriminate. Atheists. Where would they go for a marriage. Their only option is a church, because marriage is now a religious institution.

You'll come back with something else claiming I am attacking you and ignorant, so I'm done responding. I've blown through most of your points or ignored ones that really didn't make sense, (claiming to be black does not equal marrying a dude, sorry, that analogy made me seriously want to self harm) so feel free to come back with what you will. It's fun to watch you make assumptions.

You are funny. On one hand you said I dont think you believe in God, which I never said. On the other you tell me not to assume shit. Where did I say anything about Christianity or it being the basis for marriage? I didnt. You just made yourself look stupid again.  For someone who hates assumptions you sure do make a lot of them. I have had to correct your assumptions in every single post.

I love how you still missed my point about claiming to be black. I give up, you will never see what I was saying.

And why would Atheists have to go to a church to get "married".  Why cant they just go infornt of a judge like people do now. You do know that many many people get married by judges right? Not just by the church.

And if homosexuals want to start a church just so they can call their civil union a marriage then go right ahead. Seems like a pretty lame idea just so you could use the term.  I personally could care less if they did, not like it would have any significant meaning with any historical value to it. Oh thats right, it means nothing to you, this history we talk about.


Other countries believe in communism. Well I guess we should turn into a communist society so we can be like all these other countries. Dumb
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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #201 on: November 20, 2008, 01:36:25 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:15:32 PM
Quote from: Dead Kangaroo on November 20, 2008, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.

So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.

Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.


And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Do you agree with non human gay sex? As there have been animals having same sex relationships since well before we humans appeared.

In my beliefs animals are not held accountable for sin. They do not play by the same rules that we as humans do. I believe that humans have a soul whereas animals do not. So the comparison means nothing to me really.

Obviously that is going to be a difference in religious belief for most people and not really worth debating.
Ah the good old elitist bullshitism of Christianity weeping out there.
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #202 on: November 20, 2008, 01:38:17 PM »
oh no communists!  :o

As for the rest of your drivel I don't care. I got your analogy, I was appalled at how poorly constructed it was. It had no real parallel to the current situation. It was more forced that your girlfriends last orgasm.

I really don't understand where you are going with this, you don't care if gays are married because it'd mean nothing, but you don't want them "married" by a judge is the only distinction your idea has made.

History has plenty of meaning to me. I just simply know history extends more than 6,000 years and includes places with different beliefs than me.
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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #203 on: November 20, 2008, 01:41:47 PM »
Abdulaziz will be dissapointed that Shaydawg accused Allah of being without a soul.
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #204 on: November 20, 2008, 01:42:43 PM »
Quote from: Dead Kangaroo on November 20, 2008, 01:36:25 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:15:32 PM
Quote from: Dead Kangaroo on November 20, 2008, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
Because to most Americans "marriage" is a religious conotation. The majority of the religions in our country dont believe that homosexuality is a natural act.

So by taking the word marriage out and calling all marriages civil unions you remove the problem.

Let me give you a scenario that may be easier to understand. I am white. What if I started telling every one that I was African American. What if I started filling out job resume's and survey's saying that I was black. Do you think the African American community may take issue with me doing that?  I think they would.


And my arguments are not based solely on me not being gay. My religious beliefs clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. However, it does not say that a man can not love another man.

As for your comments about some societies just having marriages for reproduction. What does that matter?  Bottom line is that they are using intercourse for its naturally intended purpose. I take no issue with it, but I do disagree with it from my own religious perspective.  Just as I dont take personal issue with homosexuality I just disagree with it based on my own personal tenets,
Do you agree with non human gay sex? As there have been animals having same sex relationships since well before we humans appeared.

In my beliefs animals are not held accountable for sin. They do not play by the same rules that we as humans do. I believe that humans have a soul whereas animals do not. So the comparison means nothing to me really.

Obviously that is going to be a difference in religious belief for most people and not really worth debating.
Ah the good old elitist bullshitism of Christianity weeping out there.

I always love this answer.  It just shows the complete ignorance and elitism the person who makes it has. Not what is actually stated.

So because I have a religious belief (which I have never said was Christianity, you just assumed) then that means that my point of view is "elitist"

Ok, yeah that makes sense.  It is always the religious intollerant that always claim to be the tollerant ones.

Never fails
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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #205 on: November 20, 2008, 01:45:22 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:42:43 PM
In my beliefs animals are not held accountable for sin. They do not play by the same rules that we as humans do. I believe that humans have a soul whereas animals do not.
?
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #206 on: November 20, 2008, 01:49:40 PM »
Quote from: Raist on November 20, 2008, 01:38:17 PM
oh no communists!  :o

As for the rest of your drivel I don't care. I got your analogy, I was appalled at how poorly constructed it was. It had no real parallel to the current situation. It was more forced that your girlfriends last orgasm.

I really don't understand where you are going with this, you don't care if gays are married because it'd mean nothing, but you don't want them "married" by a judge is the only distinction your idea has made.

History has plenty of meaning to me. I just simply know history extends more than 6,000 years and includes places with different beliefs than me.

You didnt get it, quit acting like you did.

I dont have a girlfriend I have a wife. Nice assumption though. You sure prove yourself to be one hell of a hypocrite dont you.

And where did I say I dont want homosexuals "married" by a judge?  All I have said is that they can get a civil union license from a judge, just not a marriage license. Same with hetero's.


And you dont know that history extends more than 6000 years. You have know proof of that. All you have is a bunch of biological assumptions. I am not saying that the earth is only 6000 years old, I really dont know. But we can only know actual history from the start of the written word.  Everything else is just speculation without an actual observation.

Socrates proves to be correct again. Man that guy was sexy (not in a homosexual way)
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Shaydawg

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #207 on: November 20, 2008, 01:50:51 PM »
Quote from: Dead Kangaroo on November 20, 2008, 01:45:22 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:42:43 PM
In my beliefs animals are not held accountable for sin. They do not play by the same rules that we as humans do. I believe that humans have a soul whereas animals do not.
?

What are you questioning?

Please dont tell me you think the statement I made adheres only to Christianity for justification of your own assumption.
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #208 on: November 20, 2008, 01:57:39 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:49:40 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 20, 2008, 01:38:17 PM
oh no communists!  :o

As for the rest of your drivel I don't care. I got your analogy, I was appalled at how poorly constructed it was. It had no real parallel to the current situation. It was more forced that your girlfriends last orgasm.

I really don't understand where you are going with this, you don't care if gays are married because it'd mean nothing, but you don't want them "married" by a judge is the only distinction your idea has made.

History has plenty of meaning to me. I just simply know history extends more than 6,000 years and includes places with different beliefs than me.

You didnt get it, quit acting like you did.

I dont have a girlfriend I have a wife. Nice assumption though. You sure prove yourself to be one hell of a hypocrite dont you.

And where did I say I dont want homosexuals "married" by a judge?  All I have said is that they can get a civil union license from a judge, just not a marriage license. Same with hetero's.


And you dont know that history extends more than 6000 years. You have know proof of that. All you have is a bunch of biological assumptions. I am not saying that the earth is only 6000 years old, I really dont know. But we can only know actual history from the start of the written word.  Everything else is just speculation without an actual observation.

Socrates proves to be correct again. Man that guy was sexy (not in a homosexual way)

lol i did get it. I actually made no assumption, i used girlfriend in the sense of a girl that is your friend. If you aren't friends with your wife I'm sorry for that.

I know you didn't say you don't want homosexuals "married by a judge" but if you total up the changes you made, that would be the only result, the only real change in what is happening.

That analogy really does suck though, homosexuals aren't trying to claim they are straight, they are trying to marry the person they love. A better analogy would be if you tried to celebrate quanza. Which you could link because it is a cultural thing, and you would be trying to put yourself into a culture you don't belong.
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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #209 on: November 20, 2008, 02:04:40 PM »
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: Dead Kangaroo on November 20, 2008, 01:45:22 PM
Quote from: Shaydawg on November 20, 2008, 01:42:43 PM
In my beliefs animals are not held accountable for sin. They do not play by the same rules that we as humans do. I believe that humans have a soul whereas animals do not.
?

What are you questioning?

Please dont tell me you think the statement I made adheres only to Christianity for justification of your own assumption.
That statement is elitist, you're a bit slow aren't you?
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