If God exists, would Islam be the perfect response from the devil?

That's actually a great point. Is hell a physically real place? And if it is, why the hell, pardon the pun, would God simply want to send us there? Let's assume you get a physical body similar or identical to the one you have here in hell, and then you, by supernatural means, are granted immortality, and set about on an endless torture session... Would God actually think that this is enough for the really big sinners? Don't get me wrong, physical pain as a punishment is one of the most inhumande things I can think of, so great work there, O benevolent one, but is it really enough? In that case, we could, albeit not for eternity, but still very much create an actual hell on earth. Would Hell actually be such a bad place if you could get there without dying?

Quote from: Wendigo on November 21, 2008, 02:48:05 AM

That's actually a great point. Is hell a physically real place? And if it is, why the hell, pardon the pun, would God simply want to send us there? Let's assume you get a physical body similar or identical to the one you have here in hell, and then you, by supernatural means, are granted immortality, and set about on an endless torture session... Would God actually think that this is enough for the really big sinners? Don't get me wrong, physical pain as a punishment is one of the most inhumande things I can think of, so great work there, O benevolent one, but is it really enough? In that case, we could, albeit not for eternity, but still very much create an actual hell on earth. Would Hell actually be such a bad place if you could get there without dying?

Is there any finite thing you could do on earth that could warrant unending pain? I'm sure we could name some people that deserve a lot of it, but everyone is merciful to some extent. Even people that have so much hatred for someone (and deserved at that) will eventually have mercy on the other person and let them die. So could a god with infinite mercy damn someone to endless suffering and pain? My answer to that question depends I guess on my mood, what books I've read lately and just my general mindset.

Quote from: Raist on November 21, 2008, 02:54:52 AM

Quote from: Wendigo on November 21, 2008, 02:48:05 AM

That's actually a great point. Is hell a physically real place? And if it is, why the hell, pardon the pun, would God simply want to send us there? Let's assume you get a physical body similar or identical to the one you have here in hell, and then you, by supernatural means, are granted immortality, and set about on an endless torture session... Would God actually think that this is enough for the really big sinners? Don't get me wrong, physical pain as a punishment is one of the most inhumande things I can think of, so great work there, O benevolent one, but is it really enough? In that case, we could, albeit not for eternity, but still very much create an actual hell on earth. Would Hell actually be such a bad place if you could get there without dying?

Is there any finite thing you could do on earth that could warrant unending pain? I'm sure we could name some people that deserve a lot of it, but everyone is merciful to some extent. Even people that have so much hatred for someone (and deserved at that) will eventually have mercy on the other person and let them die. So could a god with infinite mercy damn someone to endless suffering and pain? My answer to that question depends I guess on my mood, what books I've read lately and just my general mindset.

That's another big hole in religion. If hell is real and God already knows that my actions would take me to hell before I was even born, then I had incomplete free choice. I should have been given the choice of whether to exist or not. Obviously I would have chosen not to given that 10^500 years of torture doesn't even count as the warmup.

And what about heaven? I would imagine that after 10^500 years of being with the same 72 big-breasted huriyah, it would get kind of boring.

Quote from: zeroply on November 25, 2008, 08:39:12 AM

Quote from: Raist on November 21, 2008, 02:54:52 AM

Quote from: Wendigo on November 21, 2008, 02:48:05 AM

That's actually a great point. Is hell a physically real place? And if it is, why the hell, pardon the pun, would God simply want to send us there? Let's assume you get a physical body similar or identical to the one you have here in hell, and then you, by supernatural means, are granted immortality, and set about on an endless torture session... Would God actually think that this is enough for the really big sinners? Don't get me wrong, physical pain as a punishment is one of the most inhumande things I can think of, so great work there, O benevolent one, but is it really enough? In that case, we could, albeit not for eternity, but still very much create an actual hell on earth. Would Hell actually be such a bad place if you could get there without dying?

Is there any finite thing you could do on earth that could warrant unending pain? I'm sure we could name some people that deserve a lot of it, but everyone is merciful to some extent. Even people that have so much hatred for someone (and deserved at that) will eventually have mercy on the other person and let them die. So could a god with infinite mercy damn someone to endless suffering and pain? My answer to that question depends I guess on my mood, what books I've read lately and just my general mindset.

That's another big hole in religion. If hell is real and God already knows that my actions would take me to hell before I was even born, then I had incomplete free choice. I should have been given the choice of whether to exist or not. Obviously I would have chosen not to given that 10^500 years of torture doesn't even count as the warmup.

And what about heaven? I would imagine that after 10^500 years of being with the same 72 big-breasted huriyah, it would get kind of boring.

Yet you know the consequences already. So you have chosen that.

Quote from: Raist on November 25, 2008, 08:52:01 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 25, 2008, 08:39:12 AM

Quote from: Raist on November 21, 2008, 02:54:52 AM

Quote from: Wendigo on November 21, 2008, 02:48:05 AM

That's actually a great point. Is hell a physically real place? And if it is, why the hell, pardon the pun, would God simply want to send us there? Let's assume you get a physical body similar or identical to the one you have here in hell, and then you, by supernatural means, are granted immortality, and set about on an endless torture session... Would God actually think that this is enough for the really big sinners? Don't get me wrong, physical pain as a punishment is one of the most inhumande things I can think of, so great work there, O benevolent one, but is it really enough? In that case, we could, albeit not for eternity, but still very much create an actual hell on earth. Would Hell actually be such a bad place if you could get there without dying?

Is there any finite thing you could do on earth that could warrant unending pain? I'm sure we could name some people that deserve a lot of it, but everyone is merciful to some extent. Even people that have so much hatred for someone (and deserved at that) will eventually have mercy on the other person and let them die. So could a god with infinite mercy damn someone to endless suffering and pain? My answer to that question depends I guess on my mood, what books I've read lately and just my general mindset.

That's another big hole in religion. If hell is real and God already knows that my actions would take me to hell before I was even born, then I had incomplete free choice. I should have been given the choice of whether to exist or not. Obviously I would have chosen not to given that 10^500 years of torture doesn't even count as the warmup.

And what about heaven? I would imagine that after 10^500 years of being with the same 72 big-breasted huriyah, it would get kind of boring.

Yet you know the consequences already. So you have chosen that.

No I haven't. I don't believe firmly enough in heaven and hell to change my behavior. If I had been brought up differently I might. God already knows all this and what's going to happen from here on out.

Let's consider Hitler. God already knew before the Solar System formed that Hitler was going to go to hell. The religious apologists will state that God could make that prediction because he knew Hitler's personality very well, and that Hitler could have gotten off the evil track at any time. But if Hitler had full information and was given a choice of whether to not exist at all, or spend billions of years being tortured, there's no way he would have chosen to exist.

The Christian God at least sounds like a used car salesman who's very good at writing fine print.

Quote from: zeroply on November 25, 2008, 11:26:57 AM

Quote from: Raist on November 25, 2008, 08:52:01 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 25, 2008, 08:39:12 AM

Quote from: Raist on November 21, 2008, 02:54:52 AM

Quote from: Wendigo on November 21, 2008, 02:48:05 AM

That's actually a great point. Is hell a physically real place? And if it is, why the hell, pardon the pun, would God simply want to send us there? Let's assume you get a physical body similar or identical to the one you have here in hell, and then you, by supernatural means, are granted immortality, and set about on an endless torture session... Would God actually think that this is enough for the really big sinners? Don't get me wrong, physical pain as a punishment is one of the most inhumande things I can think of, so great work there, O benevolent one, but is it really enough? In that case, we could, albeit not for eternity, but still very much create an actual hell on earth. Would Hell actually be such a bad place if you could get there without dying?

Is there any finite thing you could do on earth that could warrant unending pain? I'm sure we could name some people that deserve a lot of it, but everyone is merciful to some extent. Even people that have so much hatred for someone (and deserved at that) will eventually have mercy on the other person and let them die. So could a god with infinite mercy damn someone to endless suffering and pain? My answer to that question depends I guess on my mood, what books I've read lately and just my general mindset.

That's another big hole in religion. If hell is real and God already knows that my actions would take me to hell before I was even born, then I had incomplete free choice. I should have been given the choice of whether to exist or not. Obviously I would have chosen not to given that 10^500 years of torture doesn't even count as the warmup.

And what about heaven? I would imagine that after 10^500 years of being with the same 72 big-breasted huriyah, it would get kind of boring.

Yet you know the consequences already. So you have chosen that.

No I haven't. I don't believe firmly enough in heaven and hell to change my behavior. If I had been brought up differently I might. God already knows all this and what's going to happen from here on out.

Let's consider Hitler. God already knew before the Solar System formed that Hitler was going to go to hell. The religious apologists will state that God could make that prediction because he knew Hitler's personality very well, and that Hitler could have gotten off the evil track at any time. But if Hitler had full information and was given a choice of whether to not exist at all, or spend billions of years being tortured, there's no way he would have chosen to exist.

The Christian God at least sounds like a used car salesman who's very good at writing fine print.

So? Live a better life. You know this right now. The very fact that you know this and choose not to act on this knowledge makes you guilty.

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Well, I think the Ku Klux Klan cares very much about how he looked, since they are overwhelmingly Christian. More shining examples of how the word of Christ is being carried out by his followers. The majority of white rural rednecks don't want to believe that Jesus was actually Middle Eastern. Add to that, churches in the U.S. are some of the most segregated institutions around.

Also, I would think the basic beliefs of being a Christian would be to actually follow Christ's teachings, more than caring about the whole zombie myth and whether Mary successfully pulled off parthenogenesis.

As for science and religion being compatible, that's what religion says after losing each round where they butt heads. The Pope finally believes in evolution, but only because he has to. And oh, they finally got around to pardoning Galileo a few years ago. When religion gets it's ass handed to it, it comes back with "can't we be friends?" Now we are in the age of understanding genetics, where we are really starting to see how little free choice a person has. If Joey has two alcoholic parents and four alcoholic grandparents and lives in a slum, does he really have as much "free will" as religion thinks?

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 10:23:25 AM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Well, I think the Ku Klux Klan cares very much about how he looked, since they are overwhelmingly Christian. More shining examples of how the word of Christ is being carried out by his followers. The majority of white rural rednecks don't want to believe that Jesus was actually Middle Eastern. Add to that, churches in the U.S. are some of the most segregated institutions around.

Also, I would think the basic beliefs of being a Christian would be to actually follow Christ's teachings, more than caring about the whole zombie myth and whether Mary successfully pulled off parthenogenesis.

As for science and religion being compatible, that's what religion says after losing each round where they butt heads. The Pope finally believes in evolution, but only because he has to. And oh, they finally got around to pardoning Galileo a few years ago. When religion gets it's ass handed to it, it comes back with "can't we be friends?" Now we are in the age of understanding genetics, where we are really starting to see how little free choice a person has. If Joey has two alcoholic parents and four alcoholic grandparents and lives in a slum, does he really have as much "free will" as religion thinks?

You are confusing Christian with Catholic. I also agree that the Roman Catholic Church is corrupt and should probably be gotten rid of. I agree that evolution does occur. And I am not going to respond to one of those made up situations you Atheists love so much.

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 10:34:44 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 10:23:25 AM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Well, I think the Ku Klux Klan cares very much about how he looked, since they are overwhelmingly Christian. More shining examples of how the word of Christ is being carried out by his followers. The majority of white rural rednecks don't want to believe that Jesus was actually Middle Eastern. Add to that, churches in the U.S. are some of the most segregated institutions around.

Also, I would think the basic beliefs of being a Christian would be to actually follow Christ's teachings, more than caring about the whole zombie myth and whether Mary successfully pulled off parthenogenesis.

As for science and religion being compatible, that's what religion says after losing each round where they butt heads. The Pope finally believes in evolution, but only because he has to. And oh, they finally got around to pardoning Galileo a few years ago. When religion gets it's ass handed to it, it comes back with "can't we be friends?" Now we are in the age of understanding genetics, where we are really starting to see how little free choice a person has. If Joey has two alcoholic parents and four alcoholic grandparents and lives in a slum, does he really have as much "free will" as religion thinks?

You are confusing Christian with Catholic. I also agree that the Roman Catholic Church is corrupt and should probably be gotten rid of. I agree that evolution does occur. And I am not going to respond to one of those made up situations you Atheists love so much.

(1) I'm using the Catholic church as an example of religion. You can substitute lightning rods on churches if you want a broader example of retardation within the general Christian population. I think evangelicals are worse than Catholics in terms of spiritual myopia in any case. Come over to my neighborhood and I'll show you all the Escalades Sunday morning at church. Yeah, the big J-man would totally have gone for heated leather seats while people are struggling to feed their kids.

(2) The reason educated people like made up situations (we call them "thought experiments") is because they give you insight. Most people who don't shun "book lerning" have no problem with thought experiments. No, we're never actually going to have a cat confined in a box and hooked up to a Geiger counter, but the hypothetical scenario has value regardless. If you're afraid to confront the scenario and chicken out by saying "but it will never happen", you're never going to gain the insight. Oddly, religious people seem much more prone to do this than atheists, which is why you'll find a lot more atheists in a group of PhDs than you will in a bunch of high school dropouts.

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 12:07:24 PM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 10:34:44 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 10:23:25 AM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Well, I think the Ku Klux Klan cares very much about how he looked, since they are overwhelmingly Christian. More shining examples of how the word of Christ is being carried out by his followers. The majority of white rural rednecks don't want to believe that Jesus was actually Middle Eastern. Add to that, churches in the U.S. are some of the most segregated institutions around.

Also, I would think the basic beliefs of being a Christian would be to actually follow Christ's teachings, more than caring about the whole zombie myth and whether Mary successfully pulled off parthenogenesis.

As for science and religion being compatible, that's what religion says after losing each round where they butt heads. The Pope finally believes in evolution, but only because he has to. And oh, they finally got around to pardoning Galileo a few years ago. When religion gets it's ass handed to it, it comes back with "can't we be friends?" Now we are in the age of understanding genetics, where we are really starting to see how little free choice a person has. If Joey has two alcoholic parents and four alcoholic grandparents and lives in a slum, does he really have as much "free will" as religion thinks?

You are confusing Christian with Catholic. I also agree that the Roman Catholic Church is corrupt and should probably be gotten rid of. I agree that evolution does occur. And I am not going to respond to one of those made up situations you Atheists love so much.

(1) I'm using the Catholic church as an example of religion. You can substitute lightning rods on churches if you want a broader example of retardation within the general Christian population. I think evangelicals are worse than Catholics in terms of spiritual myopia in any case. Come over to my neighborhood and I'll show you all the Escalades Sunday morning at church. Yeah, the big J-man would totally have gone for heated leather seats while people are struggling to feed their kids.

(2) The reason educated people like made up situations (we call them "thought experiments") is because they give you insight. Most people who don't shun "book lerning" have no problem with thought experiments. No, we're never actually going to have a cat confined in a box and hooked up to a Geiger counter, but the hypothetical scenario has value regardless. If you're afraid to confront the scenario and chicken out by saying "but it will never happen", you're never going to gain the insight. Oddly, religious people seem much more prone to do this than atheists, which is why you'll find a lot more atheists in a group of PhDs than you will in a bunch of high school dropouts.

No, you like those made up situations because you can control what goes into them and rig it to be impossible to answer. Besides, I don't know enough about such things to give an acceptable answer. And you don't know how many people with PhD's are Christian. You just gave up that whole paragraph when you said that educated people are Atheist. I know some dumbass Atheists. In a debate between an educated christian and an educated Atheist a Christian will always win.

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 12:33:23 PM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 12:07:24 PM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 10:34:44 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 10:23:25 AM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Well, I think the Ku Klux Klan cares very much about how he looked, since they are overwhelmingly Christian. More shining examples of how the word of Christ is being carried out by his followers. The majority of white rural rednecks don't want to believe that Jesus was actually Middle Eastern. Add to that, churches in the U.S. are some of the most segregated institutions around.

Also, I would think the basic beliefs of being a Christian would be to actually follow Christ's teachings, more than caring about the whole zombie myth and whether Mary successfully pulled off parthenogenesis.

As for science and religion being compatible, that's what religion says after losing each round where they butt heads. The Pope finally believes in evolution, but only because he has to. And oh, they finally got around to pardoning Galileo a few years ago. When religion gets it's ass handed to it, it comes back with "can't we be friends?" Now we are in the age of understanding genetics, where we are really starting to see how little free choice a person has. If Joey has two alcoholic parents and four alcoholic grandparents and lives in a slum, does he really have as much "free will" as religion thinks?

You are confusing Christian with Catholic. I also agree that the Roman Catholic Church is corrupt and should probably be gotten rid of. I agree that evolution does occur. And I am not going to respond to one of those made up situations you Atheists love so much.

(1) I'm using the Catholic church as an example of religion. You can substitute lightning rods on churches if you want a broader example of retardation within the general Christian population. I think evangelicals are worse than Catholics in terms of spiritual myopia in any case. Come over to my neighborhood and I'll show you all the Escalades Sunday morning at church. Yeah, the big J-man would totally have gone for heated leather seats while people are struggling to feed their kids.

(2) The reason educated people like made up situations (we call them "thought experiments") is because they give you insight. Most people who don't shun "book lerning" have no problem with thought experiments. No, we're never actually going to have a cat confined in a box and hooked up to a Geiger counter, but the hypothetical scenario has value regardless. If you're afraid to confront the scenario and chicken out by saying "but it will never happen", you're never going to gain the insight. Oddly, religious people seem much more prone to do this than atheists, which is why you'll find a lot more atheists in a group of PhDs than you will in a bunch of high school dropouts.

No, you like those made up situations because you can control what goes into them and rig it to be impossible to answer. Besides, I don't know enough about such things to give an acceptable answer. And you don't know how many people with PhD's are Christian. You just gave up that whole paragraph when you said that educated people are Atheist. I know some dumbass Atheists. In a debate between an educated christian and an educated Atheist a Christian will always win.

Reading comprehension. You need to work on it in a really bad way.

I'll try to keep my sentences short so you can follow this time.

I said there are a higher percentage of atheists among PhDs than among high school dropouts. Belief in God tends to decrease with education. This is a fairly obvious statistic. Obviously not all PhDs are atheists, and not all uneducated people are Christian. However, the correlation is impossible to dismiss.

My hypothetical is impossible to answer only for YOU. That's an indication that there are big holes in your world model. Since I don't believe in an imaginary sky wizard that knows the future until the end of time, it's not impossible for ME to answer it.

It's not even hypothetical. There are real people where the two generations above them are entirely alcoholic. The chances of them becoming alcoholic are sky high. Obviously God didn't do a whole lot of thinking when he invented GABRG3 (it's a gene that codes for alcoholism).

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 12:50:35 PM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 12:33:23 PM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 12:07:24 PM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 10:34:44 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 10:23:25 AM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Well, I think the Ku Klux Klan cares very much about how he looked, since they are overwhelmingly Christian. More shining examples of how the word of Christ is being carried out by his followers. The majority of white rural rednecks don't want to believe that Jesus was actually Middle Eastern. Add to that, churches in the U.S. are some of the most segregated institutions around.

Also, I would think the basic beliefs of being a Christian would be to actually follow Christ's teachings, more than caring about the whole zombie myth and whether Mary successfully pulled off parthenogenesis.

As for science and religion being compatible, that's what religion says after losing each round where they butt heads. The Pope finally believes in evolution, but only because he has to. And oh, they finally got around to pardoning Galileo a few years ago. When religion gets it's ass handed to it, it comes back with "can't we be friends?" Now we are in the age of understanding genetics, where we are really starting to see how little free choice a person has. If Joey has two alcoholic parents and four alcoholic grandparents and lives in a slum, does he really have as much "free will" as religion thinks?

You are confusing Christian with Catholic. I also agree that the Roman Catholic Church is corrupt and should probably be gotten rid of. I agree that evolution does occur. And I am not going to respond to one of those made up situations you Atheists love so much.

(1) I'm using the Catholic church as an example of religion. You can substitute lightning rods on churches if you want a broader example of retardation within the general Christian population. I think evangelicals are worse than Catholics in terms of spiritual myopia in any case. Come over to my neighborhood and I'll show you all the Escalades Sunday morning at church. Yeah, the big J-man would totally have gone for heated leather seats while people are struggling to feed their kids.

(2) The reason educated people like made up situations (we call them "thought experiments") is because they give you insight. Most people who don't shun "book lerning" have no problem with thought experiments. No, we're never actually going to have a cat confined in a box and hooked up to a Geiger counter, but the hypothetical scenario has value regardless. If you're afraid to confront the scenario and chicken out by saying "but it will never happen", you're never going to gain the insight. Oddly, religious people seem much more prone to do this than atheists, which is why you'll find a lot more atheists in a group of PhDs than you will in a bunch of high school dropouts.

No, you like those made up situations because you can control what goes into them and rig it to be impossible to answer. Besides, I don't know enough about such things to give an acceptable answer. And you don't know how many people with PhD's are Christian. You just gave up that whole paragraph when you said that educated people are Atheist. I know some dumbass Atheists. In a debate between an educated christian and an educated Atheist a Christian will always win.

Reading comprehension. You need to work on it in a really bad way.

I'll try to keep my sentences short so you can follow this time.

I said there are a higher percentage of atheists among PhDs than among high school dropouts. Belief in God tends to decrease with education. This is a fairly obvious statistic. Obviously not all PhDs are atheists, and not all uneducated people are Christian. However, the correlation is impossible to dismiss.

My hypothetical is impossible to answer only for YOU. That's an indication that there are big holes in your world model. Since I don't believe in an imaginary sky wizard that knows the future until the end of time, it's not impossible for ME to answer it.

It's not even hypothetical. There are real people where the two generations above them are entirely alcoholic. The chances of them becoming alcoholic are sky high. Obviously God didn't do a whole lot of thinking when he invented GABRG3 (it's a gene that codes for alcoholism).

That was a very good attempt to make me seem stupid. kudos. As I said before, you don't know that there are more Atheist people with a PhD than Christian people with a PhD. And Alcoholism is an addiction that can be overcome.

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 01:09:02 PM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 12:50:35 PM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 12:33:23 PM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 12:07:24 PM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 10:34:44 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 10:23:25 AM

Quote from: KingMan on November 26, 2008, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 26, 2008, 09:32:30 AM

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Says the Atheist who I'm sure has spent his life devoted to learning about Jesus. As I have said before, God and Science are completely compatible. Science is fine because it is merely us leaning more about Gods creation. The basic beliefs of a Christian, as in you can't be a Christian without these, are that Jesus lived, died on a cross for our sins, and three days later rose again. And who cares what image of Jesus we have. I watched this special on the history channel on Jesus, and it turns out every race has its own depiction of Jesus. Africa thinks he was black. Asia thinks he looked Chinese. Its only natural to see Jesus as the same race as yourself. I know that he was middle eastern so he looked different, but no Christian really cares about how he looked.

Well, I think the Ku Klux Klan cares very much about how he looked, since they are overwhelmingly Christian. More shining examples of how the word of Christ is being carried out by his followers. The majority of white rural rednecks don't want to believe that Jesus was actually Middle Eastern. Add to that, churches in the U.S. are some of the most segregated institutions around.

Also, I would think the basic beliefs of being a Christian would be to actually follow Christ's teachings, more than caring about the whole zombie myth and whether Mary successfully pulled off parthenogenesis.

As for science and religion being compatible, that's what religion says after losing each round where they butt heads. The Pope finally believes in evolution, but only because he has to. And oh, they finally got around to pardoning Galileo a few years ago. When religion gets it's ass handed to it, it comes back with "can't we be friends?" Now we are in the age of understanding genetics, where we are really starting to see how little free choice a person has. If Joey has two alcoholic parents and four alcoholic grandparents and lives in a slum, does he really have as much "free will" as religion thinks?

You are confusing Christian with Catholic. I also agree that the Roman Catholic Church is corrupt and should probably be gotten rid of. I agree that evolution does occur. And I am not going to respond to one of those made up situations you Atheists love so much.

(1) I'm using the Catholic church as an example of religion. You can substitute lightning rods on churches if you want a broader example of retardation within the general Christian population. I think evangelicals are worse than Catholics in terms of spiritual myopia in any case. Come over to my neighborhood and I'll show you all the Escalades Sunday morning at church. Yeah, the big J-man would totally have gone for heated leather seats while people are struggling to feed their kids.

(2) The reason educated people like made up situations (we call them "thought experiments") is because they give you insight. Most people who don't shun "book lerning" have no problem with thought experiments. No, we're never actually going to have a cat confined in a box and hooked up to a Geiger counter, but the hypothetical scenario has value regardless. If you're afraid to confront the scenario and chicken out by saying "but it will never happen", you're never going to gain the insight. Oddly, religious people seem much more prone to do this than atheists, which is why you'll find a lot more atheists in a group of PhDs than you will in a bunch of high school dropouts.

No, you like those made up situations because you can control what goes into them and rig it to be impossible to answer. Besides, I don't know enough about such things to give an acceptable answer. And you don't know how many people with PhD's are Christian. You just gave up that whole paragraph when you said that educated people are Atheist. I know some dumbass Atheists. In a debate between an educated christian and an educated Atheist a Christian will always win.

Of course those papers were written by Atheist Men with PhD's.

Reading comprehension. You need to work on it in a really bad way.

I'll try to keep my sentences short so you can follow this time.

I said there are a higher percentage of atheists among PhDs than among high school dropouts. Belief in God tends to decrease with education. This is a fairly obvious statistic. Obviously not all PhDs are atheists, and not all uneducated people are Christian. However, the correlation is impossible to dismiss.

My hypothetical is impossible to answer only for YOU. That's an indication that there are big holes in your world model. Since I don't believe in an imaginary sky wizard that knows the future until the end of time, it's not impossible for ME to answer it.

It's not even hypothetical. There are real people where the two generations above them are entirely alcoholic. The chances of them becoming alcoholic are sky high. Obviously God didn't do a whole lot of thinking when he invented GABRG3 (it's a gene that codes for alcoholism).

That was a very good attempt to make me seem stupid. kudos. As I said before, you don't know that there are more Atheist people with a PhD than Christian people with a PhD. And Alcoholism is an addiction that can be overcome.

Are you trolling or really this uninformed?

How about this article "High IQ turns academics into atheists"?

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381

Another take "Intelligence linked to atheism":

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23860215-5005361,00.html

The fact that educated people tend to be atheists more than uneducated is well documented. What is starting to come out now is that intelligent people tend to be atheist more than unintelligent, regardless of education.

And no, they're probably not discussing this at church very much.

Alcoholism can be overcome, but it's almost impossible given certain upbringing and genetic conditions. Think about it - why would your God create genes that specifically code for addiction? It's almost as if he's fully motivated to make some people fail. When you have a 12 year old with no supervision who starts drinking, and then can't stop because his genetic code makes it that difficult, only a true American Christian could be callous enough to see that as a failure of "will power"...

Quote from: Raist on November 25, 2008, 11:39:10 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 25, 2008, 11:26:57 AM

Quote from: Raist on November 25, 2008, 08:52:01 AM

Quote from: zeroply on November 25, 2008, 08:39:12 AM

Quote from: Raist on November 21, 2008, 02:54:52 AM

Quote from: Wendigo on November 21, 2008, 02:48:05 AM

That's actually a great point. Is hell a physically real place? And if it is, why the hell, pardon the pun, would God simply want to send us there? Let's assume you get a physical body similar or identical to the one you have here in hell, and then you, by supernatural means, are granted immortality, and set about on an endless torture session... Would God actually think that this is enough for the really big sinners? Don't get me wrong, physical pain as a punishment is one of the most inhumande things I can think of, so great work there, O benevolent one, but is it really enough? In that case, we could, albeit not for eternity, but still very much create an actual hell on earth. Would Hell actually be such a bad place if you could get there without dying?

Is there any finite thing you could do on earth that could warrant unending pain? I'm sure we could name some people that deserve a lot of it, but everyone is merciful to some extent. Even people that have so much hatred for someone (and deserved at that) will eventually have mercy on the other person and let them die. So could a god with infinite mercy damn someone to endless suffering and pain? My answer to that question depends I guess on my mood, what books I've read lately and just my general mindset.

That's another big hole in religion. If hell is real and God already knows that my actions would take me to hell before I was even born, then I had incomplete free choice. I should have been given the choice of whether to exist or not. Obviously I would have chosen not to given that 10^500 years of torture doesn't even count as the warmup.

And what about heaven? I would imagine that after 10^500 years of being with the same 72 big-breasted huriyah, it would get kind of boring.

Yet you know the consequences already. So you have chosen that.

No I haven't. I don't believe firmly enough in heaven and hell to change my behavior. If I had been brought up differently I might. God already knows all this and what's going to happen from here on out.

Let's consider Hitler. God already knew before the Solar System formed that Hitler was going to go to hell. The religious apologists will state that God could make that prediction because he knew Hitler's personality very well, and that Hitler could have gotten off the evil track at any time. But if Hitler had full information and was given a choice of whether to not exist at all, or spend billions of years being tortured, there's no way he would have chosen to exist.

The Christian God at least sounds like a used car salesman who's very good at writing fine print.

So? Live a better life. You know this right now. The very fact that you know this and choose not to act on this knowledge makes you guilty.

What do you mean by "better life"? To me it's idiotic to worry about abortion and gay marriage when people in Haiti are eating mud to survive. Most of what religious people do is completely retarded from my viewpoint. American Christians are the worst of the worst - the most arrogant, the most myopic, the most close minded, and completely unaware of what Jesus actually stood for. The fact that most of them think Jesus was a tall white dude with aquiline features pretty much sums up their awareness of the big picture.

Assuming God exists, he did a piss-poor job in designing me if he wanted me to have any chance of believing in him. By giving me intelligence, skeptical thinking abilities, high level logical skills, and an interest in epistemology, he's doomed me to the eternal flames of hell...

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:36:01 PM

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

That's what i told him to do.

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:38:52 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:36:01 PM

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

That's what i told him to do.

Do you practice what you preach?

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:38:52 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:36:01 PM

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

That's what i told him to do.

Do you practice what you preach?

He was the one whining about how he was going to go to hell. So I told him what jesus would have told him.

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:45:32 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:38:52 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:36:01 PM

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

That's what i told him to do.

Do you practice what you preach?

He was the one whining about how he was going to go to hell. So I told him what jesus would have told him.

Fair enough. I just expected a Christian to do as Christ said. Silly me.

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:50:51 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:45:32 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:38:52 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:36:01 PM

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

That's what i told him to do.

Do you practice what you preach?

He was the one whining about how he was going to go to hell. So I told him what jesus would have told him.

Fair enough. I just expected a Christian to do as Christ said. Silly me.

Well... he said a lot. I figured his statement about that was more directed at that single man, to prove the rich valued their riches more than they valued their souls. It was more a lesson about the low importance of money and earthly wealth. I think he wanted to lower their importance, if you read the old testament so much of it was based on good money etiquette and such, jesus' lessons were more about the intent behind the laws then the laws themselves.

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:59:55 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:50:51 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:45:32 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:38:52 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:36:01 PM

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

That's what i told him to do.

Do you practice what you preach?

He was the one whining about how he was going to go to hell. So I told him what jesus would have told him.

Fair enough. I just expected a Christian to do as Christ said. Silly me.

Well... he said a lot. I figured his statement about that was more directed at that single man, to prove the rich valued their riches more than they valued their souls. It was more a lesson about the low importance of money and earthly wealth. I think he wanted to lower their importance, if you read the old testament so much of it was based on good money etiquette and such, jesus' lessons were more about the intent behind the laws then the laws themselves.

Interesting view; all of the moral superiority of Christianity...and you get to keep your stuff too!

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 01:38:52 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 01:36:01 PM

Jesus said to give up all worldly possessions...

That's what i told him to do.

Do you practice what you preach?

He was the one whining about how he was going to go to hell. So I told him what jesus would have told him.

I don't maintain anything like that. That's the obligation of the religious.

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 02:11:14 PM

I don't maintain anything like that. That's the obligation of the religious.

I'm not obligated to do anything.

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 02:14:22 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 02:11:14 PM

I don't maintain anything like that. That's the obligation of the religious.

I'm not obligated to do anything.

You are if you want to "live a better life".

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 02:17:20 PM

Quote from: Raist on November 27, 2008, 02:14:22 PM

Quote from: T.T. Monsieur on November 27, 2008, 02:11:14 PM

I don't maintain anything like that. That's the obligation of the religious.

I'm not obligated to do anything.

You are if you want to "live a better life".

Better than?