Devil=God?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Devil=God?
« on: December 21, 2008, 07:39:32 AM »
Purely for those who are either believers or are willing to debate that god exists for the sake of argument.

There are at least a couple of times in The Bible where it is implied that God and the devil are actually one in the same

GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).

In the Christian faith, the devil is supposed to be the tempter...

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception.

In the Christian faith the Devil is supposed to be the deceiver...

1KI 8:12, 2CH 6:1, PS 18:11 God dwells in thick darkness.
1TI 6:16 God dwells in unapproachable light.


MK 1:23-24 A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God.
1JN 4:1-2 Everyone who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. (Note: This would mean that the demon is of God.)


II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

So could the trinity actually be the Quartet? father, Son, Holy spirit and Satan?

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Raist

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 07:49:42 AM »
I think the point of the demon, is that all things good and evil had to acknowledge the coming of jesus. The rest of your points are minor contradictions, that wouldn't make God Satan, just make the bible contradictory.

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britishgent

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2008, 07:53:02 AM »
I wouldn't go so far as the quartet but Satan was created by God and God clearly allows his existance. However if God had never allowed Satan to influence his prophets then they would not have been demonstrating much free will. When you have a dude with God constantly talking to him, commanding him and impressing upon him he's hardly acting freely so there has to be the option of choice which God facilitates through the Devil tempting him. The higher the level of intimacy with the Lord the higher the level of temptation on the flipside. The Devil offered Jesus a lot of power and material wealth when he was testing him.
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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2008, 09:33:41 AM »
In a ying yang kind of sense if there were to be a god he'd probably be the evil and the good, you'll find much in life that is both good and bad in pretty much everything. The concept of pure good or pure evil is fiction in my opinion.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2008, 01:34:43 PM »
If you define one by his works, then a supernatural being would encompass both evil traits and good traits; but yet again, those are subjective terms and it's ultimately pointless. If there is a supernatural being, it is everything.
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Raist

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2008, 11:29:30 PM »
In a ying yang kind of sense if there were to be a god he'd probably be the evil and the good, you'll find much in life that is both good and bad in pretty much everything. The concept of pure good or pure evil is fiction in my opinion.

Reminds me of greek mythology. The god of sex and procreation is also the god of Rape and incest. The god of honorable heroes is also the god of villainous ones. (their heroes weren't necessarily good, just incredible)

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 06:13:21 AM »
Most ontological arguments of devil/god coexistence seem to follow this general pattern:

1. It is immoral to commit evil.
2. It is immoral to do nothing to prevent evil from being committed, (if there is no higher priorities of morality or limitations of power).
3. God doesn't prevent the devil from tempting and inciting evil.
4. God is omnipotent.
5. Therefore god is not completely moral.
6. Therefore god is not omnibenevolent.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Sean

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 07:56:02 AM »
Most ontological arguments of devil/god coexistence seem to follow this general pattern:

1. It is immoral to commit evil.
2. It is immoral to do nothing to prevent evil from being committed, (if there is no higher priorities of morality or limitations of power).
3. God doesn't prevent the devil from tempting and inciting evil.
4. God is omnipotent.
5. Therefore god is not completely moral.
6. Therefore god is not omnibenevolent.

God is testing me?
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 08:02:34 AM »
Most ontological arguments of devil/god coexistence seem to follow this general pattern:

1. It is immoral to commit evil.
2. It is immoral to do nothing to prevent evil from being committed, (if there is no higher priorities of morality or limitations of power).
3. God doesn't prevent the devil from tempting and inciting evil.
4. God is omnipotent.
5. Therefore god is not completely moral.
6. Therefore god is not omnibenevolent.

God is testing me?

JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt). Only the Devil tempts according to The Bible. ergo, if God tests then either the bible is lying (which God apparently doesn't do, yet there is evidence that he did)  or God and the devil are one in the same.

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Sean

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 08:07:01 AM »
Most ontological arguments of devil/god coexistence seem to follow this general pattern:

1. It is immoral to commit evil.
2. It is immoral to do nothing to prevent evil from being committed, (if there is no higher priorities of morality or limitations of power).
3. God doesn't prevent the devil from tempting and inciting evil.
4. God is omnipotent.
5. Therefore god is not completely moral.
6. Therefore god is not omnibenevolent.

God is testing me?

JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt). Only the Devil tempts according to The Bible. ergo, if God tests then either the bible is lying (which God apparently doesn't do, yet there is evidence that he did)  or God and the devil are one in the same.

The bible isn't written by god.
Quote from: sokarul
Better bring a better augment, something not so stupid.

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Sean

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 08:10:24 AM »
"Here I am," he replied.

Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"

"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.

"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."


Quote from: sokarul
Better bring a better augment, something not so stupid.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 08:30:40 AM »
Most ontological arguments of devil/god coexistence seem to follow this general pattern:

1. It is immoral to commit evil.
2. It is immoral to do nothing to prevent evil from being committed, (if there is no higher priorities of morality or limitations of power).
3. God doesn't prevent the devil from tempting and inciting evil.
4. God is omnipotent.
5. Therefore god is not completely moral.
6. Therefore god is not omnibenevolent.

God is testing me?

JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt). Only the Devil tempts according to The Bible. ergo, if God tests then either the bible is lying (which God apparently doesn't do, yet there is evidence that he did)  or God and the devil are one in the same.

The bible isn't written by god.

It is the Word of God, according to Christians. hence the prayer after a Bible reading "Thanks be for your Word, Lord."

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Raist

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2008, 08:34:34 AM »
Most ontological arguments of devil/god coexistence seem to follow this general pattern:

1. It is immoral to commit evil.
2. It is immoral to do nothing to prevent evil from being committed, (if there is no higher priorities of morality or limitations of power).
3. God doesn't prevent the devil from tempting and inciting evil.
4. God is omnipotent.
5. Therefore god is not completely moral.
6. Therefore god is not omnibenevolent.

God is testing me?

JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt). Only the Devil tempts according to The Bible. ergo, if God tests then either the bible is lying (which God apparently doesn't do, yet there is evidence that he did)  or God and the devil are one in the same.

The bible isn't written by god.

It is the Word of God, according to Christians. hence the prayer after a Bible reading "Thanks be for your Word, Lord."

Most believe it is inspired by God. Also, I've never heard that prayer in my life, what denomination?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2008, 08:36:17 AM »
Methodist but I believe something similar is said at the end of Catholic Readings.

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Raist

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Re: Devil=God?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2008, 08:38:34 AM »
Methodist but I believe something similar is said at the end of Catholic Readings.

I've gone to a Methodist Church my whole life and have not heard that prayer yet. That may be an English thing.