Heaven: with or without freewill?

I understand that it's a logical fallacy, but as I said, I think this is more complicated than a simple porbability calculation.

I understand that it's a logical fallacy, but as I said, I think this is more complicated than a simple porbability calculation.

I tend to think it's as simple as Heaven not existing.

Indeed. I like to think hypothetically, though.

Indeed. I like to think hypothetically, though.

Thinking hypothetically about free will in Heaven is like thinking hypothetically about a spherical cube.

How can you be an atheist in heaven if God is sat there in front of you on a big throne with the river of life running from him (It's in the Bible).

It takes a special kind of atheist to deny God then.

I thought of that too. But I thought it was dumb, so it was probablt trollbait. Also, he can blame it on mass hysteria, or even think he's gone insane.

Hi Vauxhall

I used to think about this alot and I kept asking people I know, well in my religion humans will have a free will in choosing the rewards given to them by God I don't know what you call it but in Arabic they use the word: "Na'eem". For example God will give humans in heaven different kind of fruits, meats, wives...etc so he will have free will in choosing which kind of fruit to eat, in which place in Heaven he will desire to walk...etc

As for negative desires they will not have it because every negative thing will be removed from the humans who will enter heaven before they enter, for example a human can never have a thought of being Athiest because that's negative denying the existence of god, Humans wouldn't have the will to be arrogant....etc

I'm somewhat of a hard determinationist, bar the acknowledgment of the randomness of quantum mechanics, but randomness isn't free will anyway.

Basically, I believe that we do not possess free will now, so in heaven, if heaven exists, I don't believe that it is possible for us to possess free will then.

Hi Vauxhall

I used to think about this alot and I kept asking people I know, well in my religion humans will have a free will in choosing the rewards given to them by God I don't know what you call it but in Arabic they use the word: "Na'eem". For example God will give humans in heaven different kind of fruits, meats, wives...etc so he will have free will in choosing which kind of fruit to eat, in which place in Heaven he will desire to walk...etc

As for negative desires they will not have it because every negative thing will be removed from the humans who will enter heaven before they enter, for example a human can never have a thought of being Athiest because that's negative denying the existence of god, Humans wouldn't have the will to be arrogant....etc

In your heaven, is fornication a sin?

I'm somewhat of a hard determinationist, bar the acknowledgment of the randomness of quantum mechanics, but randomness isn't free will anyway.

Basically, I believe that we do not possess free will now, so in heaven, if heaven exists, I don't believe that it is possible for us to possess free will then.

determinist, not determinationist.

This is one of the few thought provoking questions I have read on this board. Good job op, it has given me something to think about. If free will is inherently good, then heaven should obviously include it. However, if free will is used as some form of test, it seems that heaven should be more of a "happy box" scenario.

Thank you, at least someone takes the time to think about it.

Quote from: AbdulAziz on October 26, 2008, 09:20:48 AM

Hi Vauxhall

I used to think about this alot and I kept asking people I know, well in my religion humans will have a free will in choosing the rewards given to them by God I don't know what you call it but in Arabic they use the word: "Na'eem". For example God will give humans in heaven different kind of fruits, meats, wives...etc so he will have free will in choosing which kind of fruit to eat, in which place in Heaven he will desire to walk...etc

As for negative desires they will not have it because every negative thing will be removed from the humans who will enter heaven before they enter, for example a human can never have a thought of being Athiest because that's negative denying the existence of god, Humans wouldn't have the will to be arrogant....etc

In your heaven, is fornication a sin?

To answer your question, Cowgirl... I'm pretty sure it's not considered a sin. Considering that their religious text says you get "72 virgins" when you go to Heaven and all... so with that in mind, do women get 72 male virgins in Heaven?

So, if you have the freewill to fornicate, then shouldn't you have the freewill to do anything else? Or does Allah just like making people have sex and watching them?

No, women get to wear bikinis.

No, women get to wear bikinis.

So, are the virgins already in heaven, or are they Women that were virgins on Earth that Allah is slaving out to the men? Would that mean that all the non-virgin women go to Hell?

Yes, all of your statements are correct.

I'm dealing with free-will in this essay that I'm struggling with. Oscar, do it for me. The question I've picked is: "How does Heidegger's critique of Sartre's existentialism - and more generally of humanism - alter the concept of freedom?" So far, it appears that Sartre believes in the absolute freedom of the extant will, where Heidegger believes in the stewardship of being inherent in mans thinking, therefore freedom is an illusion.

To answer your question, Cowgirl... I'm pretty sure it's not considered a sin. Considering that their religious text says you get "72 virgins" when you go to Heaven and all... so with that in mind


In your heaven, is fornication a sin?

Well I think your referring to some sayings of the Hadith.

I am not sure but I think they will be his wives...

BTW, if a human in heaven is given a "Na'eem" from God in heaven it cannot be considered a sin in the sight of Allah or the people in heaven. For example humans here in this life, among them are Athiests who deny the existence of Allah, among them are the Christians who are associating partners with Allah and both of them are commiting the greatest sin in the sight of Allah while in their sight this is not a sin

do women get 72 male virgins in Heaven?

I really don't know inshallah when I will ask someone who knows better than me I will give you the answer ^_^

So, are the virgins already in heaven, or are they Women that were virgins on Earth that Allah is slaving out to the men?

Allah talks about this >>>

"Verily, WE have created them a good creation. And made them virgins,  Loving, of equal age; For those on the right hand."

Would that mean that all the non-virgin women go to Hell?

No, a non-virgin women when they will enter heaven Allah will make them young (Don't know which age) and will make them virgin forever, they will not be like our world losing their virginity they will be forever virgins.

All the above answers are from my religion view. Christians, Jews, Hindus and others might have different answers

Quote from: GarmGarf on October 26, 2008, 09:48:02 AM

I'm somewhat of a hard determinationist, bar the acknowledgment of the randomness of quantum mechanics, but randomness isn't free will anyway.

Basically, I believe that we do not possess free will now, so in heaven, if heaven exists, I don't believe that it is possible for us to possess free will then.

determinist, not determinationist.

Ah right; thanks for the correction.

What's the point of being a virgin in heaven, if not for some man's pleasure?  Doesn't sound so heavenly for females.

What's the point of being a virgin in heaven, if not for some man's pleasure?  Doesn't sound so heavenly for females.

Yeah, Islam is completely sexist from what I've about it.

What's the point of being a virgin in heaven, if not for some man's pleasure?  Doesn't sound so heavenly for females.

Don't  worry, you'll be a virgin forever, you get the lovely feeling of breaking hymen everytime you submit to the man's demands!

Your versions of heaven sound like hell.

No will to be arrogant? Sounds like God lobotomizes us on entry.

Not even arrogance but wouldn't you want to be able to sit and chat with God. Ask the hard questions? And please don't say that we would already know everything. That would be another hell. Eternity with no enrichment.

Heaven would be hard to pull off while keeping a regular human mind intact.

I think some people are forgetting the stereotype of the alleged afterlife. When you die, your corporeal body is abandoned and your 'soul' ascends to this new and higher plane of existence.

When scriptures describe this transcendence, it is self contradictory to describe physical satisfaction. Erotic pleasure in heaven (72 virgins) or physical torture in hell (flames and fire) are dependent in physical form. Committing sin in heaven (like rape) is impossible because only the mind persists. I would also assume that if heaven existed, pleasure would not be derived from physical form, as erotic pleasure is a product of it. Much like hunger is dependent on the physical system of your stomach et cetera. The drive is theoretically removed.

Suggesting that there are physical rewards and physical punishment, serves as a scare tactic and emotional drive to belief and follow one's religion. This is an important key to any successful brainwashing. The desire of eternal paradise outweighs the rational disbelief, for any religion.

Describing physical rewards/punishment is the only kind of rewards/punishment strong and apparent enough for people to relate to. Most people on Earth would not be as enthusiastic about a paradise of intellectual achievement and so on, therefore it would be less effective.

Suggesting that there are physical rewards and physical punishment, serves as a scare tactic and emotional drive to belief and follow one's religion. This is an important key to any successful brainwashing. The desire of eternal paradise outweighs the rational disbelief, for any religion.

Describing physical rewards/punishment is the only kind of rewards/punishment strong and apparent enough for people to relate to. Most people on Earth would not be as enthusiastic about a paradise of intellectual achievement and so on, therefore it would be less effective.

Shhh. Its imaginary to you. Do not stop taking your meds.

It's imaginary to everyone rational.

Shhh. Its imaginary to you. Do not stop taking your meds.

Funny thing if you think about it... reality is much less subjective to me, than it is for you.

True dat. Even though, it's not true. In a funny kind of way.

Agreed. I too take the view that reality is not perspective dependent. lol.
The question is, will he understand that? (Not a bash at his unknown IQ, but am I effective in guiding his thinking in this context)

I actually meant quite the opposite. Reality, to any one individual, is what goes on in their heads as they interact with the rest of the world. As such, to me, reality is always subjective. Reality to a larger group of people is just what they can agree on.

Well I suppose that the definition of reality is more up for interpretation than I thought. Interpretation being subjective... damn!