Evidence

  • 18 Replies
  • 4678 Views
?

BubbleBlank

Evidence
« on: October 24, 2008, 07:50:22 PM »
Hello everyone.  I'm new to this forum and I have a few friendly questions. Thanks to anyone for taking the time to answer.

For the record, I have read thoroughly through the FAQ and have browsed through old postings.  I'm asking this question here because I could not find an answer to it elsewhere.

I have a number of technical objections to the flat earth hypothesis, almost all of which I'm sure have been raised at one time or another.  But I have a more fundamental question before I would even begin on those.  My question is:

**  As a believer in a flat earth theory, what, if anything, would convince you that the earth is not in fact flat?

If my question sounds insulting it is not meant to be.  As a believer in a spherical earth, I would concede that there are reasons for believing the earth is flat, for example:

1) from a local perspective, it looks flat
2) humanity more or less collectively believed for thousands of years that the earth was flat
3) certain experiments claim to have offered support to the hypothesis that the earth is flat

These and others have been cited in the FAQ as evidence for the hypothesis that the earth is flat.  I don't deny this... when I look down, I see a flat earth, and if I didn't have anything else to go on, experiments done by such and such a person purporting to show the earth to be flat would be of great interest to me.  But that is not what is at issue.

What is at issue is, what would convince you that the earth was NOT flat?  This is a fundamental characteristic, in my opinion, of any scientific theory worth studying or ascribing to, that it could in principle be falsified with the right experiment.  What, in your view, would constitute a disproof of the hypothesis that the earth is flat?  What experiment could be devised, and what outcome could be observed to cause you to come to the conclusion that earth is not flat?

For example, I believe in a spherical earth.  I do so because it seems to me a more reasonable explanation for the existing evidence (photographs, videos, first hand accounts by astronauts, GPS, satellite television, astronomical calculations, accounts of people travelling around the globe) than does the massive conspiracy theory being supported by people on this website.  However, this does NOT mean I could never be convinced that the earth was in fact flat instead of round.  Any of the following would serve to inch me toward abandoning the hypothesis of a spherical earth:

1) a ride on a space shuttle that allowed me to look out the window and see a flat earth

2) a trip on an airplane that allowed me to see an ice wall, and a black void of space beyond it

3) several high ranking, respected, and mentally healthy public officials going public with the confession that the earth is flat and that they had been lying to us all along.

So, that is my question.  What would, or could, convince you that the earth was not flat?

Thanks to anyone for taking the time to respond.


?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: Evidence
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 03:40:10 AM »
Quote
Nothing, because the Earth is flat. Flat flat flat. Flat and that is the end of it.

I'm a round-earther myself, what with all the startling evidence an' all. What would convince me the earth is flat? Why, an expedition over the icewall to take photos of these elephants and turtles/dark energy, maybe take a few samples too.
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

Re: Evidence
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 03:27:32 PM »
your new here? well just giving you the heads up, its been concluded that there is not much scientific about FET. And if you ask me, personally I think the earth LOOKS ROUND FROM THE GROUND!
oh so now the moon is in on the conspiracy too?

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: Evidence
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2008, 12:12:33 AM »
your new here? well just giving you the heads up, its been concluded that there is not much scientific about FET. And if you ask me, personally I think the earth LOOKS ROUND FROM THE GROUND!
You need to look out Tom Bishop's window.
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

Re: Evidence
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2008, 05:15:11 AM »
your new here? well just giving you the heads up, its been concluded that there is not much scientific about FET. And if you ask me, personally I think the earth LOOKS ROUND FROM THE GROUND!
You need to look out Tom Bishop's window.

You also need to jump off Tom Bishops chair, in order to see the earth accelerate towards you. This is conclusive proof of the UA.

?

ElTimo

Re: Evidence
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2008, 03:48:19 PM »
I hate to be the breaker of balls here, but nobody has yet given an answer as to what, if anything, would convince you that the earth is indeed round? I have been wondering about this. If a FE'er were to take a ride on the space shuttle (or whatever the newer vehicle is called, i forget exactly), would he/she simply come up with more theories to compensate for FET's inadequacies?

Or will all of this be lost on the FE'ers, because I used words that are larger than three syllables.

*

General Douchebag

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 10957
  • King of charred bones and cooked meat
Re: Evidence
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 03:49:39 PM »
You see that last bit? That's why we don't answer. Go fuck yourself.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

?

ElTimo

Re: Evidence
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2008, 04:16:11 PM »
You see that last bit? That's why we don't answer. Go fuck yourself.

I apologize for that. I was being rather harsh there.

Re: Evidence
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2008, 04:33:36 PM »
1) from a local perspective, it looks flat
2) humanity more or less collectively believed for thousands of years that the earth was flat
3) certain experiments claim to have offered support to the hypothesis that the earth is flat
1) Of course Earth will look flat from a local perspective. I believe that the Earth is round, but I don't expect to see a giant ball whenever I look outside. However, regardless of the Earth being flat or round, you can't truly come to any sort of conclusion just by looking out your window. It's FAR too big to be making any judgments that quickly. It'd look the same either way, flat or round.

2) Flat Earth only used to be an accepted concept. Today however, Round Earth is more of a globally trusted theory. If you were to take it from my point of view, a theory of a civilization and a theory of a civilization hundreds of years older and more advanced just can't compare. It's sometimes best to accept being wrong.

3) Certain experiments claim that the Earth is Round too.

I explained in an earlier post, on how a Flat Earth is way too impractical to believe in.
Feel free to read it here: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=24253.msg534614#msg534614

?

trig

  • 2240
Re: Evidence
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2008, 05:42:55 AM »
The trouble with these "evidence" threads is, in part, that they overlook the accumulation of different pieces of evidence as Science's main tool of the trade.

Zetetics look at one brick and argue incessantly that the whole building will collapse "because, to me, this brick looks weak". Scientists look at the whole building, including the soundness of every brick and the way every brick fits with the others.

And scientists evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the whole building, accepting both.

Zetetics will always find "explanations" for every failed observation or experiment, and some of them sound convincing. But every new observation needs a new explanation that does not reinforce the previous ones, and more often than not, contradicts them.

*

Johannes

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 2755
Re: Evidence
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2008, 02:37:01 PM »
You don't see an ice wall because air is not transparent and the bendy light.

?

trig

  • 2240
Re: Evidence
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 03:20:27 PM »
You don't see an ice wall because air is not transparent and the bendy light.
Don't you see that the two explanations you give are mutually incompatible? You should at least read about the "bendy light" hypothesis (the one for which we are still waiting for the maths, and has severe problems posted in threads all over the place).

Re: Evidence
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2008, 05:27:29 PM »
You don't see an ice wall because air is not transparent and the bendy light.

Kepler, if *you* can't see the ice wall, why do you believe it exists?  Because someone told you so?  Who?

Even if the world is flat, who came up with the idea that there is a ice wall?  Why not a metal wall?  or a force field?  Why do FEs keep insisting on the ice wall theory?

Re: Evidence
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 01:37:35 AM »
That's why we don't answer.

Nah, often even when it is presented politely, none of the FEers seem to want to answer the question as to what evidence actually leads them to believe that the Earth is flat.  The closest that we can get is Tom Bishop's window and chair.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 10:34:17 AM by Rig Navigator »

Re: Evidence
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 09:35:50 AM »
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that will make a FEer believe the planet is spherical. They take the Earth being flat as an axiom, and assume anything that suggests otherwise is due to undiscovered phenomena rather than the simpler explanation of a round Earth.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Evidence
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 09:40:25 AM »
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that will make a FEer believe the planet is spherical. They take the Earth being flat as an axiom, and assume anything that suggests otherwise is due to undiscovered phenomena rather than the simpler explanation of a round Earth.

Either an undiscovered phenomena or a conspiracy.  What gets me is FE insists on doing that despite having roots in zetetic beliefs.

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
  • 969
  • The Earth is a Sphere
Re: Evidence
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2008, 04:06:23 PM »
Having been on this forum on and off for a long while I might be able to offer a vague outline of the kind of proof that Flat Earthers find convincing.The crucial thing is that as a consequence of the Flat Earther's belief in a vast conspiracy any evidence you provide needs to be evidence they can independently confirm preferably with relatively simple tools.
Granted it is difficult to convince them of the Spherical nature of the Earth (which isn't surprising since if they were easily convinced they would not be Flat Earthers, and I mean this in an utterly neutral way -> Since society overwhelmingly advocates and teaches that the Earth is a sphere you'd need to be committed to your belief to remain a FE for any length of time). Still that is no reason to give up, attempting to show someone the truth is a noble pursuit in and of itself, and as a side bonus you get a much deeper understanding of how and why we know the Earth is in fact a sphere.

An unrelenting
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Re: Evidence
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2008, 04:52:41 PM »
Quote
The crucial thing is that as a consequence of the Flat Earther's belief in a vast conspiracy any evidence you provide needs to be evidence they can independently confirm preferably with relatively simple tools.
I agree. And it doesn't just go for FEers. Anybody with a strong belief will be hard to convince (even if it is that PCs are better than Macs ;D ) unless you can give them a reason that they can confirm themselves (hence my sig).

I think the best evidence for a Round Earth is Geometry. Using methods that they can do themselves FEers can confirm distances on the surface of the Earth, then using Geometry they can see that those measurements don't fit a flat Earth. As they can do this themselves, they can use tools that they are confident have not been tampered with, and they can use quite simple tools (and are cheap, easy and readily obtainable).

Basically what they need is:
Spirit level (to confirm the horizon, even if they can't see it)
Protractor (to measure angles)
A Set Square (for measuring right angles)
Clock with a seconds display (for measuring time)
A Car (for travelling long distances)
Odometer (for measuring distances travelled by car)
Paper and pen (for recording their readings - and for working out the calculations if they need to)

Using these they can measure the positions of Stars at various locations. Then using these measurements and Non-Euclidean Geometry they can plot the geodesics of the surface of the Earth. As the Geodesics for a Flat and Round Earth are very different, this method will allow them to conform or disprove either Flat Earth or Round Earth.

Depending on how many people they get to help and the weather, they could do this in a week or so, so it wouldn't take long either.
Everyday household experimentation.

Re: Evidence
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2008, 11:12:01 PM »
Depending on how many people they get to help and the weather, they could do this in a week or so, so it wouldn't take long either.

Go ahead and set something up.  I can make celestial observations, and have in the past.  Not that they have done any good.