Moon librations

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2008, 06:29:09 AM »
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I have yet to see a convincing argument against it.

Lasers work, in a very basic sense, by bouncing a beam of light in between two mirrors, energizing it as it does so, until it reaches a sufficient level of intensity. If there was some kind of incredibly strong upward acceleration of light, then a laser beam would be smeared out inside the laser.

Of course, there's also the point that it goes against the main argument for the Flat Earth model, that the Earth has no visible curvature.

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markjo

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2008, 09:18:55 AM »
Bendy light has been so roundly refuted it hurts. Try a search.

I have yet to see a convincing argument against it.

How about the fact that you have yet to produce a convincing argument for it?
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Parsifal

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2008, 04:02:28 PM »
I have yet to see you spell out how you believe light bends. I suggest you open a new thread.

It bends up, with constant concavity.

Lasers work, in a very basic sense, by bouncing a beam of light in between two mirrors, energizing it as it does so, until it reaches a sufficient level of intensity. If there was some kind of incredibly strong upward acceleration of light, then a laser beam would be smeared out inside the laser.

Light only bends when the apparatus is many orders of magnitude larger than the wavelength of the light, similar to the way that quantum mechanics only applies on a small scale and relativity only applies on a large scale. You can't compare a laser to a long-distance light ray.

Of course, there's also the point that it goes against the main argument for the Flat Earth model, that the Earth has no visible curvature.

That doesn't make it any less plausible.

How about the fact that you have yet to produce a convincing argument for it?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22317.0
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markjo

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2008, 07:23:12 PM »
How about the fact that you have yet to produce a convincing argument for it?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22317.0

Like I said, no convincing argument for it yet.
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Parsifal

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2008, 10:11:18 PM »
How about the fact that you have yet to produce a convincing argument for it?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22317.0

Like I said, no convincing argument for it yet.

So you disagree that the Earth is round? Those results are just as convincing an argument for bendy light as they are for a Round Earth. Why do you assume that it is the Earth that curves and not the light? Is it because you have some other way of determining the shape of the Earth, or is it because you've been brainwashed into thinking that Round Earth is the default, and anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong until they can prove themselves to be right?
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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2008, 04:07:26 AM »
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Light only bends when the apparatus is many orders of magnitude larger than the wavelength of the light, similar to the way that quantum mechanics only applies on a small scale and relativity only applies on a large scale. You can't compare a laser to a long-distance light ray.

The wavelength of visible light is about 400?700 nm. All lasers I know of are far, far larger than this.

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So you disagree that the Earth is round? Those results are just as convincing an argument for bendy light as they are for a Round Earth. Why do you assume that it is the Earth that curves and not the light? Is it because you have some other way of determining the shape of the Earth, or is it because you've been brainwashed into thinking that Round Earth is the default, and anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong until they can prove themselves to be right?

Because a round earth is a simpler model than a flat earth with an unknown force bending the light. By Occam's razor, a round earth model is better.

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Parsifal

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2008, 04:41:42 AM »
The wavelength of visible light is about 400?700 nm. All lasers I know of are far, far larger than this.

It would have to be many orders of magnitude larger - say, a few million times larger at least. Though I suspect this factor is not quite so large for radio waves, perhaps because their wavelength is too large for quantum effects to have a great impact on their motion anyway.

Because a round earth is a simpler model than a flat earth with an unknown force bending the light. By Occam's razor, a round earth model is better.

You claim there is an unknown force behind light bending, so I will assume from this that you know how the Earth ended up being round. So, let me pose the question: how is it that the Earth ended up being round?
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markjo

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2008, 05:12:19 AM »
How about the fact that you have yet to produce a convincing argument for it?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22317.0

Like I said, no convincing argument for it yet.

So you disagree that the Earth is round? Those results are just as convincing an argument for bendy light as they are for a Round Earth. Why do you assume that it is the Earth that curves and not the light? Is it because you have some other way of determining the shape of the Earth, or is it because you've been brainwashed into thinking that Round Earth is the default, and anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong until they can prove themselves to be right?

I didn't say that.  I said that your arguments for bendy light are not convincing.  I accept that light can bend due to refraction as it passes between different media and that light can bend due to intense gravitational fields.  I have seen no compelling evidence for light bending due to any other cause.

And yes, you are wrong about the earth being flat until you can prove yourself right.  You haven't yet.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 05:16:05 AM by markjo »
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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2008, 08:57:47 AM »
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It would have to be many orders of magnitude larger - say, a few million times larger at least. Though I suspect this factor is not quite so large for radio waves, perhaps because their wavelength is too large for quantum effects to have a great impact on their motion anyway.

The laser in a CD-ROM drive is several million times larger than the wavelength of the light it emits. Most other lasers are larger still.

Also, it's due to quantum effects now? Is there any basis for that? I don't recall any part of quantum mechanics that accelerates everything upwards.

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You claim there is an unknown force behind light bending, so I will assume from this that you know how the Earth ended up being round.

What?

I'm assuming it's due to an unknown force as I've yet to see anyone provide any other explanation of what causes it to bend.

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Parsifal

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2008, 10:12:31 PM »
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It would have to be many orders of magnitude larger - say, a few million times larger at least. Though I suspect this factor is not quite so large for radio waves, perhaps because their wavelength is too large for quantum effects to have a great impact on their motion anyway.

The laser in a CD-ROM drive is several million times larger than the wavelength of the light it emits. Most other lasers are larger still.

Also, it's due to quantum effects now? Is there any basis for that? I don't recall any part of quantum mechanics that accelerates everything upwards.

It doesn't bend due to quantum effects, but quantum effect cause it not to bend over short distances. Also, several million times larger than 400 nm is about a metre. Are you trying to tell me that CD-ROM drives have a laser that is a metre long inside them? I'm not talking about the beam itself, but the apparatus which generates it.

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You claim there is an unknown force behind light bending, so I will assume from this that you know how the Earth ended up being round.

What?

I'm assuming it's due to an unknown force as I've yet to see anyone provide any other explanation of what causes it to bend.

It's due to Dark Energy, and you are correct that we don't know exactly how it works. I'm asking you how your theory is better, that is, if you can explain what makes the Earth round any better than I can explain how light bends.
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markjo

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2008, 05:30:32 AM »
It doesn't bend due to quantum effects, but quantum effect cause it not to bend over short distances. Also, several million times larger than 400 nm is about a metre. Are you trying to tell me that CD-ROM drives have a laser that is a metre long inside them? I'm not talking about the beam itself, but the apparatus which generates it.

What does the size of the apparatus that generates a laser beam have to do with the beam itself? ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Moon librations
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2008, 06:29:29 AM »
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It doesn't bend due to quantum effects, but quantum effect cause it not to bend over short distances. Also, several million times larger than 400 nm is about a metre. Are you trying to tell me that CD-ROM drives have a laser that is a metre long inside them? I'm not talking about the beam itself, but the apparatus which generates it.

You're saying 'many orders of magnitude larger - say, a few million times larger'. I'm not seeing any accurate figures here. I can't see a couple of orders of magnitude change making a difference when the measurement is 'Many orders of magnitude'.

It also doesn't solve the problem of how lasers that are a meter long work.

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It's due to Dark Energy, and you are correct that we don't know exactly how it works. I'm asking you how your theory is better, that is, if you can explain what makes the Earth round any better than I can explain how light bends.

The round Earth model has one force making the Planet spherical, so that it looks spherical. We don't currently know exactly what makes this force work. The flat Earth model has a force accelerating the planet up, making it flat. It has another force accelerating light up at a faster speed. We don't currently know how either of these forces work. The round Earth model is better, as it has less unknowns.

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Parsifal

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2008, 07:53:22 AM »
The argument is that light within the laser apparatus itself would need to travel in a straight line. Therefore, if the laser apparatus is small enough, the laser can still be generated correctly. Once leaving the apparatus which generates it, however, the laser is prone to the effects of Dark Energy if it travels for more than a metre or so.
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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2008, 08:17:05 AM »
It doesn't bend due to quantum effects, but quantum effect cause it not to bend over short distances.

You haven't explained how "quantum effects" keep the laser beam straight.

You're using quantum mechanics like a science-fiction author would: as a handy piece of technobabble to explain why your theory doesn't seem to work at small scales, and assuming the reader won't know any better. Unfortunately, there are people on these forums (me included) who have studied QM.

Re: Moon librations
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2008, 09:06:55 AM »
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Genius! I lol'd.

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markjo

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Re: Moon librations
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2008, 11:35:09 AM »
The argument is that light within the laser apparatus itself would need to travel in a straight line. Therefore, if the laser apparatus is small enough, the laser can still be generated correctly. Once leaving the apparatus which generates it, however, the laser is prone to the effects of Dark Energy if it travels for more than a metre or so.

The largest laser apparatus that I have personally see is the one at the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto.  They have (or at least had as of about 10 years or so ago) a rather large gas laser apparatus.  I don't remember exactly how big it is, but it was probably in the 1-2 meter long range.  It was also high enough energy to burn wood quite nicely.

Now Steve, what kind of bendy light experiment(s) would you propose that they conduct on that device?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 11:38:53 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Moon librations
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2008, 06:39:40 AM »
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It doesn't bend due to quantum effects, but quantum effect cause it not to bend over short distances. Also, several million times larger than 400 nm is about a metre. Are you trying to tell me that CD-ROM drives have a laser that is a metre long inside them? I'm not talking about the beam itself, but the apparatus which generates it.
So are you saying that if I used the laser out of a CDROM and shone it towards the horizon that it would not bend?

If it would bend, then you can do an experiment in your own home. Simply place two mirrors several meters apart (as you said the scale you would need is about a meter to avoid the quantum effects), or even 100 meters apart and bounce the light back and forth between them going form one side to the other (not up and down).

You should be able to use basic maths to figure out where the light beam should leave the two mirrors based on how much you think light bends and the distance the light travelled (which can be calculated by multiplying the number of reflections by the distance between the mirrors). Or more simply, using another laser to shine directly across the mirrors (as it is not travelling as far, if Bendy light is true, then this beam would not be at the same height as the first laser beam).

In fact, this could easily be done for less than $100 (for an apparatus about a meter or two long). All you need is two laser source (the laser pens would be cheap enough, if you can get the green ones cheap enough this would be better as their wavelength is much smaller than the red light ones and so would further decrease you problem of quantum mechanics), a flat piece of wood (use a sander to get it really flat), two mirrors and some things to fix it all together.

It would also only take a weekend to make and perform the experiment. Have fun with it.
Everyday household experimentation.