Catholic VS Christian

Qur'ran still looks better.

Protestant and Catholic would be the comparison not Catholic and Christian.

Now many have said the Catholicism has been around longer than Christianity which is just not true. It has been around longer than Protestantism for obvioius reasons.

The early Apostles claimed a following of Christ which would be in line with Christianity. Catholism took more of a governmental approach to the religion.

You are correct, but the OP doesn't realize he is Protestant.

Qur'ran still looks better.

It's wrong though...

Protestant and Catholic would be the comparison not Catholic and Christian.

Now many have said the Catholicism has been around longer than Christianity which is just not true. It has been around longer than Protestantism for obvioius reasons.

The early Apostles claimed a following of Christ which would be in line with Christianity. Catholism took more of a governmental approach to the religion.

It is exactly that Governmental approach to it that I hate.

Quote from: Shaydawg on October 16, 2008, 11:22:21 AM

Protestant and Catholic would be the comparison not Catholic and Christian.

Now many have said the Catholicism has been around longer than Christianity which is just not true. It has been around longer than Protestantism for obvioius reasons.

The early Apostles claimed a following of Christ which would be in line with Christianity. Catholism took more of a governmental approach to the religion.

It is exactly that Governmental approach to it that I hate.

You just didnt bother mentioning that in your original post I guess.

And there is a difference between Catholocism and Roman Catholocism.

Quote from: Shaydawg on October 16, 2008, 11:22:21 AM

Protestant and Catholic would be the comparison not Catholic and Christian.

Now many have said the Catholicism has been around longer than Christianity which is just not true. It has been around longer than Protestantism for obvioius reasons.

The early Apostles claimed a following of Christ which would be in line with Christianity. Catholism took more of a governmental approach to the religion.

You are correct, but the OP doesn't realize he is Protestant.

It is not correct.  It is no more correct than it is to say that Greek is no longer spoken because there are differences between what was spoken by Socrates and what is spoken now.

All the forms of christianity that are prevalent today (I'm excluding groups like the coptics and gnostics) have at their root catholicism.  The religion of the first few generations of christians quickly solidified into catholicism, which was then divided by the great schism, the reformation, and so forth.  The rituals you see at mass are an  evolution of those practiced in caverns under Rome, which were predominantly derived from the Jewish rituals of the time.  The evolution of these rituals was of special interest to me during my studies, as they continuously incorporated aspects of the rituals of my focus, pre-biblical religions.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on October 16, 2008, 11:32:42 AM

Quote from: Shaydawg on October 16, 2008, 11:22:21 AM

Protestant and Catholic would be the comparison not Catholic and Christian.

Now many have said the Catholicism has been around longer than Christianity which is just not true. It has been around longer than Protestantism for obvioius reasons.

The early Apostles claimed a following of Christ which would be in line with Christianity. Catholism took more of a governmental approach to the religion.

You are correct, but the OP doesn't realize he is Protestant.

It is not correct.  It is no more correct than it is to say that Greek is no longer spoken because there are differences between what was spoken by Socrates and what is spoken now.

All the forms of christianity that are prevalent today (I'm excluding groups like the coptics and gnostics) have at their root catholicism.  The religion of the first few generations of christians quickly solidified into catholicism, which was then divided by the great schism, the reformation, and so forth.  The rituals you see at mass are an  evolution of those practiced in caverns under Rome, which were predominantly derived from the Jewish rituals of the time.  The evolution of these rituals was of special interest to me during my studies, as they continuously incorporated aspects of the rituals of my focus, pre-biblical religions.

That is not what I am saying though. Can you prove to me where the early Apostles taught Catholic rituals to the members?

I understand what it developed into but the first churches are not what Catholocism represents today. For one, none of the Apostles claimed to be priests, at least not from any thing I have ever read.

The original concept of the early church fathers seemed to be more in line with modern day cell based churches rather than a Mass.  But again, I cant disagree that the church quickly moved in the direction of Catholocism. I think the early converted Jews had a hard time understanding the concepts Paul was teaching as it pertains to the dropping of rituals.

Quote from: Jesus Crotch on October 16, 2008, 11:56:36 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on October 16, 2008, 11:32:42 AM

Quote from: Shaydawg on October 16, 2008, 11:22:21 AM

Protestant and Catholic would be the comparison not Catholic and Christian.

Now many have said the Catholicism has been around longer than Christianity which is just not true. It has been around longer than Protestantism for obvioius reasons.

The early Apostles claimed a following of Christ which would be in line with Christianity. Catholism took more of a governmental approach to the religion.

You are correct, but the OP doesn't realize he is Protestant.

It is not correct.  It is no more correct than it is to say that Greek is no longer spoken because there are differences between what was spoken by Socrates and what is spoken now.

All the forms of christianity that are prevalent today (I'm excluding groups like the coptics and gnostics) have at their root catholicism.  The religion of the first few generations of christians quickly solidified into catholicism, which was then divided by the great schism, the reformation, and so forth.  The rituals you see at mass are an  evolution of those practiced in caverns under Rome, which were predominantly derived from the Jewish rituals of the time.  The evolution of these rituals was of special interest to me during my studies, as they continuously incorporated aspects of the rituals of my focus, pre-biblical religions.

That is not what I am saying though. Can you prove to me where the early Apostles taught Catholic rituals to the members?

I understand what it developed into but the first churches are not what Catholocism represents today. For one, none of the Apostles claimed to be priests, at least not from any thing I have ever read.

The original concept of the early church fathers seemed to be more in line with modern day cell based churches rather than a Mass.  But again, I cant disagree that the church quickly moved in the direction of Catholocism. I think the early converted Jews had a hard time understanding the concepts Paul was teaching as it pertains to the dropping of rituals.

Wow.  Who was the first pope again?

All the forms of christianity that are prevalent today (I'm excluding groups like the coptics and gnostics) have at their root catholicism.  The religion of the first few generations of christians quickly solidified into catholicism, which was then divided by the great schism, the reformation, and so forth.  The rituals you see at mass are an  evolution of those practiced in caverns under Rome, which were predominantly derived from the Jewish rituals of the time.  The evolution of these rituals was of special interest to me during my studies, as they continuously incorporated aspects of the rituals of my focus, pre-biblical religions.

Those groups were actually among the first Christians.  They came along before Catholics did.  And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John never actually met Jesus.

The first pope?

I have never even seen it mentioned in the bible. Can you please show me the scripture that gives us this answer.

I am assuming you are talking about Peter.

It goes against all my instincts but I'm agreeing with Shaydawg on this.

Lol.  None of the popes are mentioned in the bible.  Popes weren't appointed until well after the death of Christ.

Quote from: Jesus Crotch on October 16, 2008, 11:56:36 AM

All the forms of christianity that are prevalent today (I'm excluding groups like the coptics and gnostics) have at their root catholicism.  The religion of the first few generations of christians quickly solidified into catholicism, which was then divided by the great schism, the reformation, and so forth.  The rituals you see at mass are an  evolution of those practiced in caverns under Rome, which were predominantly derived from the Jewish rituals of the time.  The evolution of these rituals was of special interest to me during my studies, as they continuously incorporated aspects of the rituals of my focus, pre-biblical religions.

Those groups were actually among the first Christians.  They came along before Catholics did.  And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John never actually met Jesus.

Mathew, Luke, and John were all diciples of Christ. Mark was the only one never to meet him.  John was actually the closest of all the diciples to Jesus.

It goes against all my instincts but I'm agreeing with Shaydawg on this.

Did your fingers sting while typing this?

Yeah, they really did!

Yeah, they really did!

Sorry Roundy.  I accidentally poured lighter fluid on your keyboard. 

The first pope?

I have never even seen it mentioned in the bible. Can you please show me the scripture that gives us this answer.

I am assuming you are talking about Peter.

Boy, you're sure barking up the wrong tree on that one with me, buddy.

Saint Peter (Greek Πετρος, Rock)[1] (c.1–64 AD) was one of the Twelve Apostles, chosen by Jesus as one of his first disciples. His life is prominently featured in the New Testament Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles. Peter was a Galilean fisherman assigned a leadership role by Jesus.[citation needed] He was with Jesus during events witnessed by only a few apostles, such as the Transfiguration.[2] Early Christian writers provided more details about his life. Tradition describes him as the first bishop of Rome, author of two canonical epistles, and a martyr under Nero, crucified head down and buried in Rome.[2] His memoirs are traditionally cited as the source of the Gospel of Mark.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_peter

Quote from: Shaydawg on October 16, 2008, 12:22:52 PM

The first pope?

I have never even seen it mentioned in the bible. Can you please show me the scripture that gives us this answer.

I am assuming you are talking about Peter.

Boy, you're sure barking up the wrong tree on that one with me, buddy.

Saint Peter (Greek Πετρος, Rock)[1] (c.1–64 AD) was one of the Twelve Apostles, chosen by Jesus as one of his first disciples. His life is prominently featured in the New Testament Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles. Peter was a Galilean fisherman assigned a leadership role by Jesus.[citation needed] He was with Jesus during events witnessed by only a few apostles, such as the Transfiguration.[2] Early Christian writers provided more details about his life. Tradition describes him as the first bishop of Rome, author of two canonical epistles, and a martyr under Nero, crucified head down and buried in Rome.[2] His memoirs are traditionally cited as the source of the Gospel of Mark.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_peter

How am I barking up the wrong tree?  I asked you to give me scriptures and you quoted Wikipedia.

I know some people have a deep affection for the truth that is Wiki, but I had no idea it was now considered Scripture.

And "tradition" describes him?  Who is tradition and what are his credentials.


Bottom line is that the new testament scriptures do not name Peter as a pope or bishop. So my original sentiment that Christianity preceded Catholocism still stands.

Quote from: Shaydawg on October 16, 2008, 12:22:52 PM

The first pope?

I have never even seen it mentioned in the bible. Can you please show me the scripture that gives us this answer.

I am assuming you are talking about Peter.

Boy, you're sure barking up the wrong tree on that one with me, buddy.

Saint Peter (Greek Πετρος, Rock)[1] (c.1–64 AD) was one of the Twelve Apostles, chosen by Jesus as one of his first disciples. His life is prominently featured in the New Testament Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles. Peter was a Galilean fisherman assigned a leadership role by Jesus.[citation needed] He was with Jesus during events witnessed by only a few apostles, such as the Transfiguration.[2] Early Christian writers provided more details about his life. Tradition describes him as the first bishop of Rome, author of two canonical epistles, and a martyr under Nero, crucified head down and buried in Rome.[2] His memoirs are traditionally cited as the source of the Gospel of Mark.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_peter

Emphasis on the word "tradition".  As in Catholic tradition, which didn't exist until after Peter's death.  And btw, quoting Wikipedia doesn't make you an expert on the subject.

Yeah, Crotch.  I have to agree with Shay.  Christianity did preceed Catholocisim.  Gnostics were loosely considered Christians until Catholocism was founded.  Rome had a lot to do with that.

Quote from: Jesus Crotch on October 16, 2008, 12:36:10 PM

Quote from: Shaydawg on October 16, 2008, 12:22:52 PM

The first pope?

I have never even seen it mentioned in the bible. Can you please show me the scripture that gives us this answer.

I am assuming you are talking about Peter.

Boy, you're sure barking up the wrong tree on that one with me, buddy.

Saint Peter (Greek Πετρος, Rock)[1] (c.1–64 AD) was one of the Twelve Apostles, chosen by Jesus as one of his first disciples. His life is prominently featured in the New Testament Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles. Peter was a Galilean fisherman assigned a leadership role by Jesus.[citation needed] He was with Jesus during events witnessed by only a few apostles, such as the Transfiguration.[2] Early Christian writers provided more details about his life. Tradition describes him as the first bishop of Rome, author of two canonical epistles, and a martyr under Nero, crucified head down and buried in Rome.[2] His memoirs are traditionally cited as the source of the Gospel of Mark.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_peter

Emphasis on the word "tradition".  As in Catholic tradition, which didn't exist until after Peter's death.  And btw, quoting Wikipedia doesn't make you an expert on the subject.

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.  The fact still remains that the briefly extant fledgling predecessor to the catholic church evolved solely into the catholic church.  The coptics and gnostics I mentioned were offshoots prior to the solidification of the catholic church, which is why I excluded them, but they are not prevalent, which is why I don't think they rebut my statement.

I can't believe you are asking for scriptural reference, people, we're talking history here, not literature.  I have books somewhere that give the exact apostolic succession, but the point is that nothing else made it.  The supposed pre-catholicism christianity of which you speak is completely unknown to the modern world outside the tiny exceptions such as the ones I acknowledged.

Exactly what denomination of christianity do you think predated catholicism?

Exactly what denomination of christianity do you think predated catholicism?

None.  Christians before the time of Catholocism followed different gospels.  Each family had a specific gospel they followed.  Some would come together and worship.  Others kept it to themselves.  And denomination is a very inaccurate term for the different sects of Christianity. 

Hmm, this was a good debate. I'm glad it didn't get out of hand or angry, good job. But, I think I agree with both. First, I agree with JC(GD) that all forms of protestantism (what king calls Christianity), has their origins in Catholicism. However, there must have been some kind of more diffuse progenitor more aligned with Judaism. To me, this is purely a semantic argument, and can probably end.

Quote from: Jesus Crotch on October 16, 2008, 12:59:07 PM

Exactly what denomination of christianity do you think predated catholicism?

None.  Christians before the time of Catholocism followed different gospels.  Each family had a specific gospel they followed.  Some would come together and worship.  Others kept it to themselves.  And denomination is a very inaccurate term for the different sects of Christianity. 

Hrm, didn't know that, I suppose it makes more sense than trying to rationalise all the conflicting stories in each of the gospels.

Quote from: Moonlit on October 16, 2008, 01:09:56 PM

Quote from: Jesus Crotch on October 16, 2008, 12:59:07 PM

Exactly what denomination of christianity do you think predated catholicism?

None.  Christians before the time of Catholocism followed different gospels.  Each family had a specific gospel they followed.  Some would come together and worship.  Others kept it to themselves.  And denomination is a very inaccurate term for the different sects of Christianity. 

Hrm, didn't know that, I suppose it makes more sense than trying to rationalise all the conflicting stories in each of the gospels.

Yeah.  It wasn't until a Christian Emporer came into power in Rome that the bible was put together.  A few priests were chosen to sift through all of the gospels and put the one's they thought to be appropriate together into one book.  They left out several gospels that did not go with their own beliefs.  Catholicism started before this, just to be straight, but their bible was put together later on. 

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on October 20, 2008, 05:13:57 AM

Quote from: Moonlit on October 16, 2008, 01:09:56 PM

Quote from: Jesus Crotch on October 16, 2008, 12:59:07 PM

Exactly what denomination of christianity do you think predated catholicism?

None.  Christians before the time of Catholocism followed different gospels.  Each family had a specific gospel they followed.  Some would come together and worship.  Others kept it to themselves.  And denomination is a very inaccurate term for the different sects of Christianity. 

Hrm, didn't know that, I suppose it makes more sense than trying to rationalise all the conflicting stories in each of the gospels.

Yeah.  It wasn't until a Christian Emporer came into power in Rome that the bible was put together.  A few priests were chosen to sift through all of the gospels and put the one's they thought to be appropriate together into one book.  They left out several gospels that did not go with their own beliefs.  Catholicism started before this, just to be straight, but their bible was put together later on. 

damn them, it's all their fault!

It's their fault we don't live in a utopia where people from all nations, be they freemen or slaves, black or white, no matter which way their bread's buttered, can live in harmony. Wankers.

It's their fault we don't live in a utopia where people from all nations, be they freemen or slaves, black or white, no matter which way their bread's buttered, can live in harmony. Wankers.

I disagree with this statement, though a year ago I might not have.

Do you know who's fault it is we don't all live in equality? The jews.

Do you know who's fault it is we don't all live in equality? The jews.

This is so true.  We are so genetically superior to all others, equality is impossible.  You all fight one another in an attempt to be as cool as us.