Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)

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Daniel

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Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« on: April 28, 2005, 02:43:47 PM »
This is taken from the Wikipedia entry for "Flat Earth".  This is only the text of the entry.  For the full entry, complete with links, please refer to the Wikipedia entry.


The flat Earth theory is the idea that Earth is flat, as opposed to the view that the Earth is very nearly spherical (see Spherical Earth).

People from early antiquity generally believed the world was flat, but by the time of Pliny the Elder (1st century) its spherical shape was generally acknowledged. At that time Ptolemy derived his maps from a curved globe and developed the system of latitude and longitude. His writings remained the basis of European astronomy throughout the Middle Ages.

A small number of early Christian writers questioned and even opposed Earth's sphericity on theological grounds. With the astrolabe, Arab astronomy reached Europe in the 11th century, and by the 1100s at the latest, the geocentric model had supplanted it in the minds of the learned people of Europe.

Antiquity

Belief in a flat Earth is found in humankind's oldest writings. In early Mesopotamian thought the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean, and this forms the premise for early Greek maps like those of Anaximander and Hecataeus.

By classical times an alternate idea, that Earth was spherical, had appeared; this required ignorance of the fact that light travels in curved lines. This was espoused by Pythagoras apparently on aesthetic grounds, as he also held all other celestial bodies to be spherical. Aristotle provided physical evidence for the spherical Earth:

    * Ships actually recede over the horizon, disappearing hull-first. In a flat-earth model, they should simply get smaller and smaller until no longer visible, assuming that light travels in a straight line.
    * Travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon. This is only possible if their "straight up" direction is at an angle to northerners' "straight up". Thus the Earth's surface cannot be flat.
    * The border of the shadow of Earth on the Moon during the partial phase of a lunar eclipse is always circular, no matter how high the Moon is over the horizon. Only a sphere casts a circular shadow in every direction, a circular disk casts an elliptical shadow in most directions.

Earth's circumference was estimated around 240 BC by Eratosthenes, who knew about Syene (now Aswan) in Egypt where the sun was directly overhead at the summer solstice and used geometry to come up with a circumference of 252,000 stades, which, depending on the estimate of the unit stadia, is within 2% and 20% of the actual circumference, 40,008 kilometres.

Middle Ages

It is certain that a few isolated Christian writers explicitly argued against the spherical Earth. Lactantius (245–325) calls it "folly" because people on a sphere would fall down; Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (315–386) saw Earth as a firmament floating on water; Saint John Chrysostom (344–408) saw a spherical Earth as contradictory to scripture; Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. 408) and Diodorus of Tarsus (d. 394) argued for a flat Earth; and Cosmas Indicopleustes (547) called Earth "a parallelogram, flat, and surrounded by four seas" in his Christian Topography, where the Covenant Ark was meant to represent the whole universe. Cosmas, however, wrote in Greek, and since he was not translated until the 17th century, he could have had no influence on the thought of western intellectuals in the Middle Ages, who read and wrote, for the most part, in Latin. There are relatively few historical records of the period between 600 and 1000 for either spherical or flat-Earth thinking (owning to the general scarcity of records from that time). Saint Basil (329–379) argued that knowledge about Earth's shape was irrelevant.

Several of these writers are not thought to have been influential in the middle ages due to a scarcity of references to their work in mediaeval writings. Different historians have argued either for very high (e.g. Andrew Dickson White) or very low (e.g. Jeffrey Russell) influence. Russell, a professor of history at Santa Barbara who has written widely on mediaeval religion, heresy and witchcraft, explored the issue in Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians. Russell claims that the Flat Earth theory is a myth used to impugn pre-modern civilisation, especially that of the Middle Ages in Europe. Andrew Dickson White's work is not taken seriously by modern historians of science because of his serious historiographic flaws including using a fictionalised history of Christopher Columbus as a source. Today essentially all professional mediaevalists agree with Russell that the "mediaeval flat earth" is a nineteenth-century fabrication, and that the few verifiable "flat earthers" were the exception.

One critical part of this dispute, first known through Cicero (106-43 BC) and remaining popular throughout the Middle Ages (to as late as the 16th century1), is the belief in antipodes, that is, people living on the opposite side of a spherical Earth, with their feet faced against ours. The earth was in five zones (two icy poles, a hot zone in the equator and two temperate regions). Along the equator was a belt of deadly heat through which no one could pass separating the temperate regions north and south. Some of the most important mediaeval scholars such as Saint Augustine (354-430) argued against antipodes and called them a "fable". However, Augustine explicitly pointed out that the belief in a spherical Earth did not directly imply a belief in antipodes:
 
Quote
"Those who affirm [a belief in antipodes] do not claim to possess any actual information; they merely conjecture that, since the Earth is suspended within the concavity of the heavens, and there is as much room on the one side of it as on the other, therefore the part which is beneath cannot be void of human inhabitants. They fail to notice that, even should it be believed or demonstrated that the world is round or spherical in form, it does not follow that the part of the Earth opposite to us is not completely covered with water, or that any conjectured dry land there should be inhabited by men. For Scripture, which confirms the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishment of its prophecies, teaches not falsehood; and it is too absurd to say that some men might have set sail from this side and, traversing the immense expanse of ocean, have propagated there a race of human beings descended from that one first man." (De Civitate Dei, xvi, 9)


The phrase "even should it be believed or demonstrated that the world is round" indicates that this was certainly not the consensus of the time, and possibly not even believed by Augustine. This is in clear contrast to the pre-Christian period. Procopius of Gaza (491-518) argued that "if there be men on the other side of the Earth, Christ must have gone there and suffered a second time to save them; and therefore there must have been, as necessary preliminaries to his coming, a duplicate Adam, Eden, serpent, and Deluge!" Saint Boniface (d. 755) accused Vergilius (d. 784) of "teaching a doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the Earth, which was 'contrary to the Scriptures.'" (Catholic Encyclopedia). Pope Zacharias decided that "if it be proved that he held the said doctrine, a council be held, and Vergilius expelled from the Church and deprived of his priestly dignity." Vergilius believed "that beneath the Earth there was another world and other men, another Sun and Moon." Bede (d. 735), another significant theologian, wrote that the Earth was round, and clearly indicated that it was round in the sense of a ball or sphere, rather than a flat disc. It is known that the most important and widely taught theologian of the Middle Ages, Thomas Aquinas, believed in a spherical earth. In addition, Dante's Divine Comedy portrays the earth as a sphere.

The primitive level of mediaeval cartography also makes it difficult to estimate the degree of flat-Earth thinking. Most mediaeval maps served as encyclopedias rather than navigational aids. The question whether average people in the Middle Ages believed in a flat Earth may yet be completely separate from the surviving manuscripts, given the low literacy of the time and the fact that it was probably the priests in the churches, not the few noted theologians, who defined public opinion on the matter. The fact that the Elucidarius (c. 1120), an important manual for the instruction of low order clergy in the middle ages, explicitly refers to a spherical earth supports the contention that belief in a spherical earth was widely held. In learned circles, the spherical shape of the earth was well established by the 11th century. Hermannus Contractus is among the earliest Christian scholars to estimate the circumference of the earth with Eratosthenes' method.

Modern times

As of the beginning of the 21st Century, there remain populations within rural cultures which, unexposed to technological civilisation, consider the world to be flat. With no long-distance communication requirements or other technological endeavours, their beliefs appear to suffice.

From a European perspective, Portuguese exploration of Africa and Asia in the 15th century removed any serious doubts, and Magellan and Drake's circumnavigations any remaining ones. The myth that Christopher Columbus's sailors feared they would fall off the edge of the world is false: they were understandably uncertain about a voyage into the unknown, and were also worried that food supplies would run out. In fact Columbus did not provide sufficient supplies to reach China or the East Indies, his original destination, and if America had not existed then those on the voyage might have died of starvation.

Some Christians in England and United States tried to revive Flat Earth thinking in the 19th century. Modern people who do not accept the spherical Earth and base this opinion on Scripture do not represent a continuing school of Biblical exegesis, although some small groups such as the Flat Earth Society work hard to keep the concept alive, and have claimed a few thousand followers [1]  (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html). Charles K. Johnson ran the Flat Earth Society from his home in California until he died in 2001.

Notes

    * Note 1: It was against this theory that George Best wrote his chapter entitled "Experiences and reasons of the Sphere, to prove all parts of the worlde <sic> habitable, and thereby to confute the position of the five zones" (A True Discourse, 1578).

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guest

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2005, 12:19:49 PM »
Why did you post something that explains that all you who believe the earth is flat are crazy morons who were disproved in the 15th century?

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Daniel

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Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2005, 02:22:30 PM »
Quote from: "guest"
Why did you post something that explains that all you who believe the earth is flat are crazy morons who were disproved in the 15th century?


This is the "Flat Earth Information Repository", not the "Flat Earth Propaganda Repository".  It's a collection of all the Flat Earth-related information I can find regardless of whether it's pro-Flat Earth or anti-Flat Earth.  I prefer to present both sides of the issue and let people make their own decisions.

And besides, if I only posted articles which were on the side of Flat Earth theory, you'd be posting in here criticizing me for not presenting the other side.

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Anonymous

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2005, 08:39:07 AM »
both sides of the issue? hahahahahahaha


Stupid idiot go learn some 8th grade physics the earth is round end of story.

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A more intelligent Guest

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2005, 12:32:01 PM »
Looks like somebody else needs to go learn some 8th grade English.

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Daniel likel eats the poo

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2005, 08:46:56 AM »
I love how people seem to think that all "issues" have "two sides".  That's why we should listen to the "controversy"

Man, I love the internet.  Public opinion itself is mocking this stupid society

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Anonymous

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2005, 10:50:43 PM »
I'm going to make a decision. Flat earthers are idiots.

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awesomeguy000000000

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2005, 04:20:47 PM »
i'm gonna make another desicion. i'm gonna leave this stupid site and buy me some pie.

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Lucretius

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2005, 12:17:35 PM »
Quote
Aristotle provided physical evidence for the spherical Earth:

* Ships actually recede over the horizon, disappearing hull-first. In a flat-earth model, they should simply get smaller and smaller until no longer visible, assuming that light travels in a straight line.
* Travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon. This is only possible if their "straight up" direction is at an angle to northerners' "straight up". Thus the Earth's surface cannot be flat.
* The border of the shadow of Earth on the Moon during the partial phase of a lunar eclipse is always circular, no matter how high the Moon is over the horizon. Only a sphere casts a circular shadow in every direction, a circular disk casts an elliptical shadow in most directions.
I'm curious. If you really do believe in "Flat Earth" theory, how would you reply to these ideas? I'm not trying to be rude, angry, or at all unbelieveing toward you're ideas. I just need more facts before I'm willing to believe ANYTHING. I believe in "Sphereical Earth" theory because of facts. All I've seen on your side is blind faith, paranoia toward the government, and a total lack of science. So please fill me in on the part that I'm missing.

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spongebue

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2005, 12:29:57 PM »
Also, how could a guy fly around the world in 36 hours if the earth was flat?  And when you see pictures taken from space of the earth, what shape is it?  Whaddya know?  It's round  :shock:  :D

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2005, 12:32:57 PM »
People believe all kinds of things:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


A flat earth seem a harmless indulgence to me.

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Motoman

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2005, 02:02:59 PM »
*** I posted this in another thread. I think it was the "government conspiracies thread" Anyway this would still apply to this one so here****

Quote from: "Motoman"
you pepople are stupid. You say riots would break out. Remeber back in the old days (15 hundreds? I dunno.) EVERYONE THOUGH THE WORLD WAS ROUND. DId riots break out? NO! DID people kill each other no? Were they wrong that the earth is flat? YES! YES! YES!. If NASA wernt real how could you explain the recent space shuttle burning up in the atmoshpere? Also ( depending on where you live because the same side of the moon always faces the earth) how would you explian that with Powerfull telescopes YOU CAN SEE THE AMERICAN FLAG ON THE MOON!!!

Plus I asure you pearl harbor would not have occured becuase accodring to you they would have had to travel the enitire earth

And back then the feul efficiency of airplanes wasnt good you could probably get 1/4th of the way. Also, airlines have changed their routes because they have determined that flying above a sphere takes less time than traveling on the bulge of the sphere.

It takes a shorter time to travle with route 'B' than route 'A' because you are going a shorter distance over a ROUNDED part of the earth.

Also how could the government conceal such a secret? And then again it wouldnt only have to be the US government. It would have to be EVERY SINGLE GOVERENMENT EVER TO RISE TO POWER. And i assure you I dont think america could keep peace with iraq much less hold a gigantic secret with them. Along with other countries.

In addition explain this to me; If the earth were flat how is it possible that it  Night time on one continent and day time on the other? If earth were flat then light would be distorted evenly over the surface meaning the when it day in the US it would be day in India. But its not. The earth, BEING ROUND, spins on it axis, meaning that one spot on the earth receives light while the other has spun away from facing the sun and is bathed in night.

Well my rant is done. My closing is that you people are idiots. I would also love to see (and laugh) at all the F's you received on your school report  cards. (if you even went to school). Oh and i want to congradulate you on you new jobs as the worlds biggest assholes.

Good day,

Motoman.

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Anonymous

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2005, 04:05:33 AM »
flat earth society lost

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2005, 05:20:03 AM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
flat earth society lost


Not really, the maps supplied were clearly distorted to give a two dimensional representation of what was wrongly assumed to be a three dimensional shape. Had the cartographer simply represented a flat earth on a piece of paper then the apparent difference between routes A and B would have been reversed showing that the - so called - great circle route was indeed the shorter because it is a straight line on a flat plane.

As to all the rest it was so badly typed, spelt and punctuated that it is impossible to be sure what he meant.

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2005, 06:16:21 AM »
Quote
Not really

Yes really.

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Duh! Earth Is Round

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2005, 02:14:14 AM »
Oh shut up, of course the Earth is Round, wouldn't people fall off if it wasn't? Also travelling around the world would take alot longer! You guys are stupid! Earth is round!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT FLAT!!!!!!!!! I suppose the sun will be flat soon enough! And Mars! And Neptune! Get a life!

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2005, 02:51:42 PM »
motoman...you totally fucking pwned these noobs!

i never thoguh of pearl harbour or plane travel.. bravo,
m a borderline, parinoid, sociopath...and i think your all crazy

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2005, 04:56:57 PM »
I can safely say the Earth is Flat.
FLAT FLAT FLAT
Just look at the Moon in the sky and compare it to the Earth.
It looks flat, and is flat apart from the roundness of the edges.
Can you safely say there is something on the other side or at the round edges.

If the Earth were round there would not be any fixed point like North, South, East, West. Top, Bottom Left or Right. GMT--.EST--- PST---PMT.
Because there would not be a fix point to say North, South, East Or West, Top Bottom, Left Or Right

The equator is only there to give us a point in travelling and distance.
And longitude is only there to give us a point in time and age.
If the Earth were round all the water would run down the sides to the bottom.

Try It.

Blow a balloon up and put a drop of water on the top. It will flow downwards towards the bottom. So if the world were round all the water would end up at the bottom.
If it was flat as it is, all the water stays in the same area.

Well that’s it really.

The World Is Flat


Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2005, 05:32:25 PM »
Gravity is what makes the water go to the bottom.  If all the water on the earth was like on your ballon, It would all be on the side closes to the sun.  You do believe in gravity right?
gnorance can be excused, Stupidity cannot.

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2005, 05:09:05 PM »
Well gravity is a man made believe which make us believe in roundness and the so-called expanding universe theory.

What has the sun got to do with a flat earth anyway?

The Earth is Flat.

Ice is cold water, and you get Ice floating on top of water, so gravity cannot affect all types of water,
Boiling water creates steam, which rises up into the Flat earths cloud system, so gravity does not affect that type of water system. -----(Does It)

So where are you coming from.

Ignorance can be excused, Stupidity cannot.

Look around you and the Flat Earth.
It’s not all-just black and white.



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WTF

  • 256
Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2005, 08:20:19 PM »
You forgot to include the sun with a happy face in the upper corner of your drawing

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2005, 06:44:16 AM »
Just For You


Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2005, 09:31:54 AM »
Ice floats because it is less dense then water.  anythng that is less desnse then water floats.  A ship floats because of buoyancy.  Which is it weights less then the weight of the water it is displacing.  Steam rises into clouds because steam is less dense then air.
gnorance can be excused, Stupidity cannot.

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2005, 11:59:20 AM »
Ice is water crystals and steam is water vapour so they are still a form of water
So if gravity affects all types of water as you stated on your round earth theory all types of water would stay at ground zero.
So why does ice water float above the water line and steam rise up into the heavens.
And what has a ship floating on water got to do with The Flat Earth.

The Panama and Sues cannels were built to allow shipping to step around the flat earth to the other side on their travels.

surly you must have known that.





Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2005, 12:34:41 PM »
If the Earth is flat, then how can gravity exist?

Newton PROVED that a planet sized object is needed to create gravity that would hold us and everything on the Earth to it.

a flat Earth would not be big Enough to do this.

Also, Gravity Pulls all things towards it. As particles get drawn in, they will pile up on eachother. Gravity will not move objects so it will be flat. We would have to live in a "d universe for the Earth to be flat.

And what about galaxies? Have you seen the nucleus of a galaxy? The nucleus of the Milky Way is called "The big bulge". This is a giant sphere composed of light, gas, suns, dark matter and energy, and black holes. Now, enough about the nucleus. We can see the arms of galaxys disappear behind these nucli. This must mean that they are spinning. If they were flat, then they would get thinner as they spin, wouldn't they?

Bing bang boom, proved wrong.  The Earth, and every other celestial body is round, and you have been proved wrong by their orbits and gravity itself.

Can I ask, where did you get the idea that the Earth was flat?

Oh, and to the guy who was talking about this


Did you ever pay attention in physics?

Gravity pulls things towards the center of the object omitting it.

Why would all the water on the Earth gather at one place? Gravity is equal at all points of the Earth (except fpr the poles, as they are more flat than the rest of the world (Hey, I just proved everyone wrong, it's neither roud nor flat, it's an oval!)). Why would gravity differentiate between matter? It will pull all things towards the center of the Earth, no matter where you are on Earth. Gravity will not pull matter towards particular points in the Earth.

Some of you really need to watch discovery science, it works wonders!

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2005, 12:58:33 PM »
No here is a picture of the ice wall i have been there

[/img]

Only joking its a picture of a glacier showing anyone could fake it

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2005, 01:06:23 PM »
In fact, science does not work by conclusively and indisputably refuting
bad hypotheses.  Instead, hypotheses stand or fail on their ability to
explain known observations, and to predict the outcome of observations that
haven't been performed yet.

If you step back and look at it,
though,what kind of world would it have to be if your right?
Gravity doesn't function here like it does everywhere else in the solar
system, there's a huge conspiracy reaching across hundreds of years to
convince us (for no apparent reason) that the earth is round instead of
flat, the progression of the seasons, and even of day and night, are
controlled by the gods.  Eventually, a reasonable person would have to
concede that it would make a lot more sense to agree that the earth is
indeed round.

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WTF

  • 256
Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2005, 02:57:22 PM »
Quote from: "Ravingnutter"
Just For You



Hmm, it has the sun.  I'm convinced.  The earth is flat!

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2005, 04:31:56 PM »
Of course!  Why didn't I see it sooner!
gnorance can be excused, Stupidity cannot.

Flat Earth (Wikipedia, April 2005)
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2005, 04:32:27 PM »

Well I must be on another Flat Earth than everyone ells.
You must know that the outer flat solar system is coated with mirror particles, which make the flat solar system seam bigger than it really is.
If you look up at the night sky on a clear evening you can see many flat star clusters repeating them self’s in the same flat star patterns but light years away from each other.

Thus The Ravingnutter mirror particle theory 2005

And where there are Black holes there must be White holes because.
(Where there is a reaction there must be an opposite reaction.)
The Sun is hot so there must be a cold sun somewhere


Doesn’t the Borg live on a square cube?

But we live on a Flat Earth.

What stops a bullet projectile from going all around your so-called round earth?

Exactly. The flat earth.

It gets to the end of the Flat Earth.
And as it cannot use the Sues or Panama cannels to turn round it then shoots of into space.
Its not gravity and friction which stops the bullet projectile.
It’s the Flat Earth