The Moon and The Sun

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3 Tesla

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The Moon and The Sun
« on: October 11, 2008, 05:48:17 AM »
The Moon and The Sun:

Are they round spheres or flat discs?

(And the same goes for the planets too.)
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 08:46:14 AM »
I think FEers used to think they were flat disks, but more of them are starting to open up to the fact that they are globes.
oh so now the moon is in on the conspiracy too?

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Ski

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 11:50:56 AM »
I've always thought them globes. I'm not aware of anyone holding the flat moon/sun to be true.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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3 Tesla

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 12:11:43 PM »
I've always thought them globes. I'm not aware of anyone holding the flat moon/sun to be true.

A round Sun, a round Moon and a flat Earth - why the difference?

Why aren't they all round?
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Ski

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 12:14:01 PM »
Mammals don't lay eggs, yet there is that damn platypus... Mammals aren't venomous, yet there is that damn platypus...
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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3 Tesla

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2008, 03:08:43 PM »
Mammals don't lay eggs, yet there is that damn platypus... Mammals aren't venomous, yet there is that damn platypus...

Are you trying to say that the Earth is the only known flat object in the entire Universe because it "evolved" under special conditions?

What might those special conditions have been?

Or was it "created" (by some "intelligent designer") in which case its shape follows no laws or logic?
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 04:12:11 PM »


The diagram on top suggests that the North axis is tilted towards the Sun receiving only light and that every other dot receives 12hrs of day & 12hrs of night. The dots positioned from north to south being Russia, China, Equator, Australia and the Antarctic circle all receive the same amount of light on different time zones. Russia at 4am, China at 5am, Equator at 6am, Australia at 7am and Antarctic circle at 8am.

The SHAM.

The bottom diagram has now shifted the Earth's axis according to Pinocchio science and is now showing the South axis facing the Sun but every dot from North to South still receiving 12hrs of night meaning they are receiving 12hrs of day which is not REALITY, neither observed, nor documented. The dot positioned north (Russia) enters the night at 4pm, China at 5pm, Equator 6pm, Australia at 7pm, and last but not least the Antarctic circle at 8pm. Daylight saving time doesn't exist according to these diagrams made available by science taught in the educational system a payed program from your government.


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Ski

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 04:50:55 PM »
Mammals don't lay eggs, yet there is that damn platypus... Mammals aren't venomous, yet there is that damn platypus...

Are you trying to say that the Earth is the only known flat object in the entire Universe because it "evolved" under special conditions?

I'm simply saying that the earth is not the only thing "under heaven" so to speak that is unique.
I suspect most of the objects in the heavens began as discs. We know galaxies accrete in discs, etc.


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Or was it "created" (by some "intelligent designer") in which case its shape follows no laws or logic?
Does creation preclude a natural process or physical laws or logic?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 04:59:16 PM »


I suspect most of the objects in the heavens began as discs. We know galaxies accrete in discs, etc.



very flat spheres, not disks

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Parsifal

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 05:02:41 PM »
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 05:28:10 PM »
i couldn´t resist ;)

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3 Tesla

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 07:14:53 AM »
Does creation preclude a natural process or physical laws or logic?

Yes - completely, absolutely, utterly and fundamentally ...

In my experience of having scientific debates with religious people.

For example: If "God" can heal sick people instantaneoulsy today, why would "He" need to have living organisms evolve over millions of years? Obviously "He" created them over a period of six literal days (Plants day two? Animals day five? Man day six!).

If "God" can do anything (omnipotence) then things can change or come into being in a completely arbitrary fashion according to "His" creative whim. Any "laws" of science or nature are purely illusory - order exists because of the order imposed by the orderly mind/will of "God".

Nothing happens, changes or evolves throughout all of "Creation" which is not prescribed by "His" mind/will:

Revelation 4:11 (Today's New International Version)
   
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 07:16:51 AM »
I'm simply saying that the earth is not the only thing "under heaven" so to speak that is unique.
I suspect most of the objects in the heavens began as discs. We know galaxies accrete in discs, etc.

A very good point.

Galaxies are flattish discs, planets are round, The Sun is round, The Moon is round ...

And The Earth is a flat disc.

All different shapes and sizes.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Ski

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 01:05:33 PM »
Does creation preclude a natural process or physical laws or logic?

Yes - completely, absolutely, utterly and fundamentally ...

But HaShem did not make the universe tohu. If you are saying, He could have, then I suppose you may be right, but creation would not/did not preclude order.
Unless you are playing semantics and saying the act of creation would be, regardless, unnatural and that apart from creation there would be no natural law?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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3 Tesla

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 01:48:18 PM »
But HaShem did not make the universe tohu.

"HaShem" a name for the Jewish God ("The Name") and "tohu" as in void, right?

But The King James Bible states exactly that:

Genesis 1:2 (King James Version)

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

My understanding is that "God" created the entire Universe ("creation") out of nothing.

Edit: but my understanding may be very, very wrong, of course!

If you are saying, He could have, then I suppose you may be right, but creation would not/did not preclude order.
Unless you are playing semantics and saying the act of creation would be, regardless, unnatural and that apart from creation there would be no natural law?

What I am saying is that if you ascribe the "creation" of the universe to an omnipotent "God" then that "God" can do whatever "He" wants whenever "He" wants without being limited by any physical or natural laws.

Order in "Creation" only exists because the mind of the "Creator" is orderly.

If "God" wanted The Moon to suddenly reverse its path across the sky then it would do just that.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Ski

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2008, 02:20:18 PM »
Without turning the discussion into a religious debate, I will say that Isaiah 45:18 says God did not create the earth "tohu" (chaotic). Genesis in Hebrew may read to say "The earth became 'tohu'"
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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markjo

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2008, 07:23:52 PM »
Does creation preclude a natural process or physical laws or logic?
Yes - completely, absolutely, utterly and fundamentally ...

I don't want to derail this too far, but I want to respectfully disagree here.

Personally, I believe that God is indeed responsible for creating the universe.  However, He did it via the big bang and let the universe unfold and form by a set of rules that we call physical laws.  Six days or 14 billion years, it's all the same to God.

At least that is my personal opinion.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2008, 07:30:35 PM »
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I don't want to derail this too far, but I want to respectfully disagree here.

Personally, I believe that God is indeed responsible for creating the universe.  However, He did it via the big bang and let the universe unfold and form by a set of rules that we call physical laws.  Six days or 14 billion years, it's all the same to God.

At least that is my personal opinion.

If life arouse through a completely natural process, why presume an unobservable sky fairy at all?

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markjo

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2008, 07:48:16 PM »
Quote
I don't want to derail this too far, but I want to respectfully disagree here.

Personally, I believe that God is indeed responsible for creating the universe.  However, He did it via the big bang and let the universe unfold and form by a set of rules that we call physical laws.  Six days or 14 billion years, it's all the same to God.

At least that is my personal opinion.

If life arouse through a completely natural process, why presume an unobservable sky fairy at all?

Where did the big bang come from?  What is the origin of the seed of the universe?  What happened before the beginning of time?  There are many philosophical questions that science can't answer.

BTW,  I don't like it when you refer to God as "an unobservable sky fairy".  If you chose not to believe, that's fine by me.  Just don't mock those who do chose to believe.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Anteater7171

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2008, 08:00:21 PM »
I've always thought them globes. I'm not aware of anyone holding the flat moon/sun to be true.

A round Sun, a round Moon and a flat Earth - why the difference?

Why aren't they all round?

They're not they are all flat, Hence flat Mars society.
I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2008, 08:12:36 PM »
I've always thought them globes. I'm not aware of anyone holding the flat moon/sun to be true.

A round Sun, a round Moon and a flat Earth - why the difference?

Why aren't they all round?

They're not they are all flat, Hence flat Mars society.

please tell me your joking -_-
oh so now the moon is in on the conspiracy too?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2008, 08:39:08 PM »
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Where did the big bang come from?  What is the origin of the seed of the universe?  What happened before the beginning of time?  There are many philosophical questions that science can't answer.

Oh, I get it. If science doesn't yet have a conclusive answer for something suddenly "an invisible sky fairy did it".

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BTW,  I don't like it when you refer to God as "an unobservable sky fairy".  If you chose not to believe, that's fine by me.  Just don't mock those who do chose to believe.

If you don't want to be mocked for your stupid beliefs in the supernatural, then maybe you shouldn't have those stupid beliefs
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 08:41:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2008, 09:07:33 PM »
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BTW,  I don't like it when you refer to God as "an unobservable sky fairy".  If you chose not to believe, that's fine by me.  Just don't mock those who do chose to believe.

If you don't want to be mocked for your stupid beliefs in the supernatural, then maybe you shouldn't have those stupid beliefs

Tom, as opposed to your "intelligent" belief in FE?  I think I'll stick with the sky fairy, thank you.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2008, 09:18:31 PM »
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Tom, as opposed to your "intelligent" belief in FE?  I think I'll stick with the sky fairy, thank you.

Who whoa whoa.

FE is observable. RE is not.

The non-existence of God observable. The existence of God is not.

RE vs. FE is a faith issue exactly like the issue between religion and non-religion.

One group of whackos is saying "I can't observe it, and don't have any evidence of it what-so-ever, but who cares, I have faith that the sky fairy did it (or saw it)."

Another group is only putting their beliefs into the stone and observable, believing in only matters which can be peer reviewed. God can't be peer-reviewed. NASA can't be peer reviewed. Therefore there is no reason to believe in those things. Those things cannot be confirmed, and must be taken on faith alone.

Skeptics and free-thinkers like us would rather live in a universe which is known and peer-reviewable. You guys would rather live in a dogmatic universe based on blind faith. There's a difference.

Faith is ignorance. Not skepticism.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 09:45:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Ski

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2008, 09:46:29 PM »
Does creation preclude a natural process or physical laws or logic?
Yes - completely, absolutely, utterly and fundamentally ...

I don't want to derail this too far, but I want to respectfully disagree here.

Personally, I believe that God is indeed responsible for creating the universe.  However, He did it via the big bang and let the universe unfold and form by a set of rules that we call physical laws.  Six days or 14 billion years, it's all the same to God.

I tend to agree.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Moon squirter

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2008, 01:21:46 AM »
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Tom, as opposed to your "intelligent" belief in FE?  I think I'll stick with the sky fairy, thank you.

Who whoa whoa.

FE is observable. RE is not.
Wrong.  RE is just as "observable" as FE, from 60,000ft+.  The argument is however meaningless, due to the possible size of the earth.  Try looking at the heavens instead, and work from there.

The non-existence of God observable. The existence of God is not.
Wrong. The non-existance of God is not observable; just the illusiveness of God.

RE vs. FE is a faith issue exactly like the issue between religion and non-religion.
...
Faith is ignorance. Not skepticism.

Faith in the Lord Robothem and 100 proofs, to the exclusion of all modern scientific advances, you mean.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2008, 01:36:47 AM »
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Try looking at the heavens instead, and work from there.

I've looked at the heavens lots of times. I've never seen a Round Earth.

Quote
Wrong. The non-existance of God is not observable; just the illusiveness of God.

 ::)

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Faith in the Lord Robothem and 100 proofs, to the exclusion of all modern scientific advances, you mean.

Rowbotham's work can and has been peer reviewed by unconnected third parties. No one has peer reviewed the Viking, Apollo, or Pathfinder missions.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 01:45:04 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Moon squirter

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2008, 01:40:43 AM »
Quote
Try looking at the heavens instead, and work from there.

I've looked at the heavens lots of times. I've never seen a Round Earth.


Comon, that's not what I meant and you know it!

I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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3 Tesla

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2008, 03:05:30 AM »
Personally, I believe that God is indeed responsible for creating the universe.  However, He did it via the big bang and let the universe unfold and form by a set of rules that we call physical laws.  Six days or 14 billion years, it's all the same to God.

At school I had a staunchly atheistic geology teacher.

(Quite apt; given that geology, with its mountains formed over millions of years, was jointly responsible with Evolution for discrediting the literal interpretation of The Book Of Genesis.)

He once said that if you believe in an omnipotent "God" ...

Then you have to believe in the possibility that "He" created the entire universe yesterday along with your (false) memories of the things that happened before that.

If "God" is omnipotent then there are no rules.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: The Moon and The Sun
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2008, 03:31:02 AM »
At school I had a staunchly atheistic geology teacher.

I wasn't trying to offend anyone's beliefs here, OK?

I was just airing some views which have developed due to a debate I've had recently with a fundamentalist Christian about evolution/creationism.

He was the one who said that if God heals instantaneously today (which I believe) then he wouldn't need to mess around with millions of years' worth of evolution - he would just create all of the animals "in their types" isntantaneously too.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)