Reasons for believing in FE?

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Parsifal

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2008, 03:22:40 AM »
And we don't even need to go into space to find out what shape they are. Ancient cartographers did a pretty good job of it long before man ever went into space.

All the while assuming that they were navigating on a sphere, of course. If they had known they were sailing on a disc, their maps would have more closely resembled the actual shape of the continents they were navigating.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2008, 03:26:03 AM »
And we don't even need to go into space to find out what shape they are. Ancient cartographers did a pretty good job of it long before man ever went into space.

All the while assuming that they were navigating on a sphere, of course. If they had known they were sailing on a disc, their maps would have more closely resembled the actual shape of the continents they were navigating.

There are pretty accurate maps from back when people still thought the earth was flat. Not perfect of course but they got the basic idea down.

But I wouldn't take my word for it tonight. I've had a few too many shots of crown royal

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2008, 04:11:23 AM »
Its funny that nobody has acknowledged the OP seriously yet.

Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2008, 04:52:43 AM »
All the while assuming that they were navigating on a sphere, of course. If they had known they were sailing on a disc, their maps would have more closely resembled the actual shape of the continents they were navigating.

But the maps represent what was actually observed whether they assume a spherical or flat Earth.  The charts were based on distances, courses steered, bearings measured and depths measured.  Measurements of latitude were the first piece of positional data that were added.  Longitude was still based on the information used for dead reckoning their position (distances, courses steered, bearings measured and depths measured).  This accounts for the east-west stretch of late 16th century charts. 

With the invention of the chronometer, accurate longitude information could be added to the chart.  This is when you start to see what is considered an "accurate" chart of the globe.

Why go through this description of the evolution of charts?  To point out that  charts were based on information that wasn't prejudiced toward either a spherical or flat Earth.  This information was plotted as it was observed, not to fulfill some mission to prove the shape of the Earth.  You measure a course and distance between two points and place that on the chart.  You verify that location using celestial observations, and that makes the charts more accurate.

In my opinion, the fact that the information collected led to charts that demonstrate consistency, shows something about the nature of the Earth, but the information itself is neutral.

Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2008, 05:10:42 AM »
All the while assuming that they were navigating on a sphere, of course. If they had known they were sailing on a disc, their maps would have more closely resembled the actual shape of the continents they were navigating.

But the maps represent what was actually observed whether they assume a spherical or flat Earth.  The charts were based on distances, courses steered, bearings measured and depths measured.  Measurements of latitude were the first piece of positional data that were added.  Longitude was still based on the information used for dead reckoning their position (distances, courses steered, bearings measured and depths measured).  This accounts for the east-west stretch of late 16th century charts. 

With the invention of the chronometer, accurate longitude information could be added to the chart.  This is when you start to see what is considered an "accurate" chart of the globe.

Why go through this description of the evolution of charts?  To point out that  charts were based on information that wasn't prejudiced toward either a spherical or flat Earth.  This information was plotted as it was observed, not to fulfill some mission to prove the shape of the Earth.  You measure a course and distance between two points and place that on the chart.  You verify that location using celestial observations, and that makes the charts more accurate.

In my opinion, the fact that the information collected led to charts that demonstrate consistency, shows something about the nature of the Earth, but the information itself is neutral.

Exactly what I was meaning to say.

Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2008, 06:23:40 AM »
If you drew a bad map back then, there'd be a very real danger of death for the crew. And if the crew didn't die you'd better find somewhere to hide, because the survivors would no doubt come looking for the clutz that left them stranded at sea.

Back then or now, it is important to have accurate charts.  With the size of the ships that are navigating the seaways, accurate charts are even more important because the margin of error is smaller.  With supertankers routinely making the voyage from the Persian Gulf, around the Cape of Good Hope, and then continuing up to ports in Europe, the risk to the environment if their charts were inaccurate would be incalculable.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2008, 08:12:03 AM »
Not necessarily.  It only appears that way because it's already been assumed a priori that the earth is round.

I don't think so, ancient scientists and philosophers didn't watch the sunset over the ocean and say "hmm, that looks like solid evidence for a flat earth". 

Is anybody going to acknowledge the OP?

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Parsifal

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2008, 09:05:28 AM »
If you drew a bad map back then, there'd be a very real danger of death for the crew. And if the crew didn't die you'd better find somewhere to hide, because the survivors would no doubt come looking for the clutz that left them stranded at sea.

Navigating with RE maps assuming that the Earth is round would yield results as expected, even if the maps themselves are wrong.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Parsifal

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2008, 09:36:07 AM »
No it wouldn't.

If a RE map showed the distance from Cape Town to Buenes Aires as 4,269 miles and it turned out to be somewhere around three times that distance, then that's a lot of p!ssed off sailors in the middle of the ocean.

Fish like to swim in the wake of fast-moving vessels, often close enough to nudge the vessel itself. The collective force of a lot of fish all nudging the vessel causes it to move faster.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2008, 10:12:54 AM »
No it wouldn't.

If a RE map showed the distance from Cape Town to Buenes Aires as 4,269 miles and it turned out to be somewhere around three times that distance, then that's a lot of p!ssed off sailors in the middle of the ocean.

Fish like to swim in the wake of fast-moving vessels, often close enough to nudge the vessel itself. The collective force of a lot of fish all nudging the vessel causes it to move faster.

Got any evidence of that, any observations?  Experiments results showing how fast the speed of the ship may be boosted?  How would this make a ship believe that they went only X distance when they actually went 3 times X?  I believe they would keep track of their speed.

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Johannes

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2008, 10:34:34 AM »
The electronics that monitor their velocity are flawed as they are based on the mechanical operations of the boats. They don't take into account the fish boost.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2008, 10:53:45 AM »
Again, got any evidence of this?  Test results?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2008, 10:58:44 AM »
Rig Navigator probably knows more about what instruments are used to measure speed on a boat.  No doubt it is done differently than on land.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2008, 11:30:56 AM »
Its funny that nobody has acknowledged the OP seriously yet.
QFT
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2008, 12:07:51 PM »
The electronics that monitor their velocity are flawed as they are based on the mechanical operations of the boats. They don't take into account the fish boost.

electronics of the boat are not used to monitor their velocity.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #75 on: October 09, 2008, 01:46:33 PM »
The UN model of the FE may not be the most accurate map.

Here's a more accurate map for that route from Buenes Aires to the Cape of Good Hope: http://theflatearthsociety.net/forum/index.php?topic=544.0
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 01:49:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #76 on: October 09, 2008, 02:30:15 PM »
You mean the map that has both North America and South America are larger than Africa?  North America looks as big as Asia in that picture.  In addition, I believe to travel from Buenes Aires to New Zea land flights go west.  On that map how far would that be?  Also, could you draw the arctic circle, tropic of cancer, equator, tropic of Capricorn, and antarctic circle on that map?  I believe the sun would have to take some very strange paths in that world.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #77 on: October 09, 2008, 02:44:27 PM »
In addition, in that map Australia appears directly north of New Zealand.  Flights from New Zealand to Japan would cross over Australia.  The distance between New Zealand and Japan is severely warped, as well as new Zealand to the west coast of the U.S.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #78 on: October 09, 2008, 05:26:24 PM »
You mean the map that has both North America and South America are larger than Africa?

It's an approximation. It's the general layout which is important.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 05:29:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Johannes

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #79 on: October 09, 2008, 05:31:46 PM »
The electronics that monitor their velocity are flawed as they are based on the mechanical operations of the boats. They don't take into account the fish boost.

electronics of the boat are not used to monitor their velocity.

You would be surprised how common microchips are these days.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #80 on: October 09, 2008, 05:36:10 PM »
You mean the map that has both North America and South America are larger than Africa?

It's an approximation. It's the general layout which is important.

Your approximation is way off.  Weren't you the one arguing a few weeks ago that Newtonian theory of gravitation did not help find the planet Neptune because it was calculated to be a degree off from where it really was in the sky? Now suddenly an approximation of your map (which is so far off it isn't even in the same ballpark) is good enough?  Sorry to say, but it doesn't matter how you arrange the continents on a flat map, something somewhere will have to be warped or stretched for it to work.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #81 on: October 09, 2008, 05:38:02 PM »
The electronics that monitor their velocity are flawed as they are based on the mechanical operations of the boats. They don't take into account the fish boost.

electronics of the boat are not used to monitor their velocity.

You would be surprised how common microchips are these days.

Sorry, I should have said mechanical operations of the boats.  They are not used to calculate the velocity.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #82 on: October 09, 2008, 05:40:58 PM »
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Your approximation is way off.  Weren't you the one arguing a few weeks ago that Newtonian theory of gravitation did not help find the planet Neptune because it was calculated to be a degree off from where it really was in the sky?

No, the prediction of Neptune wasn't just a degree off. It was several hundred orders of magnitudes off.

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Sorry to say, but it doesn't matter how you arrange the continents on a flat map, something somewhere will have to be warped or stretched for it to work.

The South Pacific Ocean in the RE model has been squished to fit on a globe.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #83 on: October 09, 2008, 06:08:06 PM »
Nope, the submarine cable system between new zealand and the US west coast would be a much further run if your map were true.  Also most of the cable runs that exist today would have to be different lengths if it were a flat earth, considering they were made and run with the assumption of round earth distances.

http://www.telegeography.com/products/map_cable/


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Johannes

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #84 on: October 09, 2008, 06:41:40 PM »
Since, continual bumps got no legitimate response to the OP in this thread, I decided to make a thread that couldn't be as easily stereotyped and cast aside.

In court, an objective observer such as an arbitrator, mediator, or judge takes on the active listening role as both sides present their evidence and conclusions (Burden of Proof and Burden of Refutation so to speak).

In any case, RE'ers have countless threads explaining the reasons why they believe in RE and not FE. For instance, one small reason I believe in RE because I have seen NASA's images of earth from space, and I have no reason to think they are not legitimate. FE'ers have failed to present any reasons why they believe in FE, except maybe Tom who constantly cites Rowbotham and also constantly fails to back up Rowbotham's theories. The most recent example of this is here.

A. Point 1: It is illogical to arrive at a conclusion without evidence to support the conclusion.
Point 2: You have come to a conclusion of a Flat Earth.
Point 3: If you use logic and reasoning you must have evidence.

I can see no reason why such evidence can't readily be shared with us, under such premises. FE'rs are incorrect in asserting that the public supported and common view should bear the burden of disproving every deviant view. That argument aside, is it a lack of evidence or laziness on your behalf that prevents FE'ers from presenting the reasons they side with FE?

B. This simplified proof also begs questions with 'the conspiracy'. You believe in it yet readily admit to not having witnessed a shred of evidence for it. The only reply I have ever seen suggests the conspiracy because it makes sense if FE is true. If this is the case, the logical structure is still incomplete due to its dependence on part A of my post. The conspiracy is a theory perched upon purely faith-based logic.

It is biased to not post your reasons in an attempt to avoid having your reasons disproved.
1. For thousands of years man believed in a flat earth. It is a logical assumption if you have no other knowlege
2. We do have evidence with perspective, bendy light, gears theory and more
3. It is illogical for you to say we have no logic
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #85 on: October 09, 2008, 08:15:25 PM »
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1. For thousands of years man believed in a flat earth. It is a logical assumption if you have no other knowlege

For the last few thousand years educated man has believed in a round earth.  You do have plenty of knowledge and evidence for a round earth available, FE believers choose to ignore it.

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2. We do have evidence with perspective, bendy light, gears theory and more

That is not evidence, those are theories designed to explain certain observations that do not support a flat earth.  For example: I highly doubt ancient scientists and philosophers concluded that the earth must be flat due to the fact they observed the sun sink behind the western horizon, then rise again from the east the next morning. 

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3. It is illogical for you to say we have no logic

It is illogical to come to a conclusion without taking seriously all the evidence available to you.

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You still have not given any serious answer to the OP.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 12:05:11 PM by ragnarr »

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MrKappa

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #86 on: October 09, 2008, 08:21:07 PM »
1. For thousands of years man believed in a flat earth. It is a logical assumption if you have no other knowlege
2. We do have evidence with perspective, bendy light, gears theory and more
3. It is illogical for you to say we have no logic
 ???

I am almost certain that no man ever believed the world was flat. Before Christopher Colombus and as far back as the ancient Greeks the world has always been perceived as round. This society to my knowledge began in the early 1900's.

I am fairly certain the world became flat in the early 1900's and no one has ever looked back since.

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Johannes

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #87 on: October 09, 2008, 08:43:10 PM »
prove it

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #88 on: October 09, 2008, 08:45:29 PM »
prove what?  This forum is about FE providing their evidence for a flat earth.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Reasons for believing in FE?
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2008, 10:31:52 PM »
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I am almost certain that no man ever believed the world was flat. Before Christopher Colombus and as far back as the ancient Greeks the world has always been perceived as round. This society to my knowledge began in the early 1900's.

I am fairly certain the world became flat in the early 1900's and no one has ever looked back since.

So you're saying that Round Earth theory is the primitive earth model then?