Dude what?

How do you explain GPS and their ability to tell where I am without the use of Triangulation, since space flight is impossible.

The transmitter does not need to be in orbit or in space to triangulate a position. Look up the LORAN system, for example.

Find me a tower north of the Artic Circle, or are you assuming that a signal GPS tower can reach every inch of the earth?

Find me a tower north of the Artic Circle, or are you assuming that a signal GPS tower can reach every inch of the earth?

Why can't the signal be sent in HF form bounced off the upper atmoplane?  There are no towers out in the middle of the oceans but I can still talk on HF radios out there.

Why can't the signal be sent in HF form bounced off the upper atmoplane?  There are no towers out in the middle of the oceans but I can still talk on HF radios out there.

The antenna isn't large enough to receive a HF signal.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 08:11:58 AM

Why can't the signal be sent in HF form bounced off the upper atmoplane?  There are no towers out in the middle of the oceans but I can still talk on HF radios out there.

The antenna isn't large enough to receive a HF signal.

Have you ever seen a FET ground based GPS antenna?

GPS doesn't really work like radio transmission, it needs at least four satellites to determine it's position.

The GPS satellite system works off 24 satellites. I'm not sure how many towers would be required, but I'd guess that they'd have to be fairly tall (in the order of kilometers) to cover inhospitable regions like the arctic circle.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/gps/work.html

That's what the GPS conspiracy would like you to think.

Is the GPS conspiracy the same as the other conspiracy, or part of it, or is the other conspiracy part of the GPS conspiracy or are they two seperate conspiracies?

Have you ever seen a FET ground based GPS antenna?

Well, as a part of my job I work with GPS receivers and demodulators.  The largest of our antennas is 200mm (8 inches) per side and square.  This does not make it large enough to receive HF signals.  The HF antenna is 1.5 meters (6 feet) tall and is a whip antenna.  On other ships I have worked on, the HF direction finding antenna was a loop 1 meter (3 feet) in diameter.

There are HF differential correction stations for navigation near shore, but those signals are not usable more than 100 nm (approx. 200 km) offshore.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 09:43:05 AM

Have you ever seen a FET ground based GPS antenna?

Well, as a part of my job I work with GPS receivers and demodulators.  The largest of our antennas is 200mm (8 inches) per side and square.  This does not make it large enough to receive HF signals.  The HF antenna is 1.5 meters (6 feet) tall and is a whip antenna.  On other ships I have worked on, the HF direction finding antenna was a loop 1 meter (3 feet) in diameter.

There are HF differential correction stations for navigation near shore, but those signals are not usable more than 100 nm (approx. 200 km) offshore.

Technology has gotten smaller in the way of HF Antennas.  OUr old HF antennae used to be as long as our airplane.  But not anymore.  The new ones are much shorter than six feet.

Technology has gotten smaller in the way of HF Antennas.  OUr old HF antennae used to be as long as our airplane.  But not anymore.  The new ones are much shorter than six feet.

But they still aren't small enough to become an integrated part of a handheld device.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 12:06:18 PM

Technology has gotten smaller in the way of HF Antennas.  OUr old HF antennae used to be as long as our airplane.  But not anymore.  The new ones are much shorter than six feet.

But they still aren't small enough to become an integrated part of a handheld device.

Hmm maybe.  HF isn't the end all answer to the original question.  I was just showing how you can receive a signal 2000 miles from any land based antennae.  The fact is, it is possible.

Hmm maybe.  HF isn't the end all answer to the original question.  I was just showing how you can receive a signal 2000 miles from any land based antennae.  The fact is, it is possible.

Yes, and I was pointing out why HF wouldn't work with the observable characteristics of GPS receivers.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 12:51:31 PM

Hmm maybe.  HF isn't the end all answer to the original question.  I was just showing how you can receive a signal 2000 miles from any land based antennae.  The fact is, it is possible.

Yes, and I was pointing out why HF wouldn't work with the observable characteristics of GPS receivers.

Ok, its a specifically designed antennae that works similar to HF transmissions. 

Is that better?

Ok, its a specifically designed antennae that works similar to HF transmissions. 

Is that better?

I am not sure what you are trying to say now. 

If you are trying to say that GPS could be working mid-ocean through the use of ground based antennas, I won't agree with it.  The observed characteristics of the system just don't lend themselves to that.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 01:08:03 PM

Ok, its a specifically designed antennae that works similar to HF transmissions. 

Is that better?

I am not sure what you are trying to say now. 

If you are trying to say that GPS could be working mid-ocean through the use of ground based antennas, I won't agree with it.  The observed characteristics of the system just don't lend themselves to that.

What observed characteristics?

What observed characteristics?

Observed height of the signal source and derived ranges.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 01:57:56 PM

What observed characteristics?

Observed height of the signal source and derived ranges.

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Assuming its some sort of signal other than from a satellite, why doesn't it work without a clear view of the sky?  The explanation for how GPS functions (according to FE'ers) is just as weak as satellite TV or even radio (more so for Radio IMO).  Location needs more than 1 signal to determine location to such a precise degree.

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:30:59 PM

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Could you give me an altitude?  Maybe I can postulate a theory from it.  Now, don't cheat and go looking for a website that tells you what altitude GPS sats are at.  I want to know from the receiver.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:30:59 PM

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Where is the receiver getting that information from?

Quote from: Rig Navigator on September 23, 2008, 02:42:57 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:30:59 PM

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Where is the receiver getting that information from?

Hush Tom.  I got this.

Quote from: Rig Navigator on September 23, 2008, 02:42:57 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:30:59 PM

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Where is the receiver getting that information from?

I am going to guess that it has something to do with government conspiracy.  Honestly, if thats all you people can jump to is some hippy its a conspiracy nonsense and stay far away from facts this is like arguing with a brick wall.  Good day sirs. 

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2008, 04:52:16 PM

Quote from: Rig Navigator on September 23, 2008, 02:42:57 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:30:59 PM

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Where is the receiver getting that information from?

I am going to guess that it has something to do with government conspiracy.  Honestly, if thats all you people can jump to is some hippy its a conspiracy nonsense and stay far away from facts this is like arguing with a brick wall.  Good day sirs. 

Thanx for not inputting intelligently to this discussion.  Now GTFO.

Quote from: Rig Navigator on September 23, 2008, 02:42:57 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:30:59 PM

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Where is the receiver getting that information from?

Umm, from the data in the GPS signal, perhaps? 

You can check out all sorts of neat information about the GPS system here:  http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 23, 2008, 04:52:16 PM

Quote from: Rig Navigator on September 23, 2008, 02:42:57 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:30:59 PM

You have a GPS receiver that tells you the altitude of the signal source?

Yes.

Where is the receiver getting that information from?

Umm, from the data in the GPS signal, perhaps? 

You can check out all sorts of neat information about the GPS system here:  http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html

Leave Tom the Bot out of this.

Could you give me an altitude?  Maybe I can postulate a theory from it.  Now, don't cheat and go looking for a website that tells you what altitude GPS sats are at.  I want to know from the receiver.

I wasn't able to get a new screenshot, but here is an older one that I have already on my computer.  It will give you an idea of the information that is available...

The transmitter does not need to be in orbit or in space to triangulate a position. Look up the LORAN system, for example.

There is a problem with that though, LORAN has an absolute accuracy of .1-.25 NM.  Even repeatable accuracy, while better, is accurate to within 60-300 feet.  Also LORAN towers are rather large (190-220 meters) and the coverage is limited as well, see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/09/LoranCoverage.gif

GPS on the other hand, depending on the monitoring correction used, and has an accuracy from 10-30cm.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on September 23, 2008, 02:44:14 PM

Could you give me an altitude?  Maybe I can postulate a theory from it.  Now, don't cheat and go looking for a website that tells you what altitude GPS sats are at.  I want to know from the receiver.

I wasn't able to get a new screenshot, but here is an older one that I have already on my computer.  It will give you an idea of the information that is available...

I cannot find the sat altitude on your picture.  Can you point it out for me?

GPS on the other hand, depending on the monitoring correction used, and has an accuracy from 10-30cm.

I've heard that different GPS systems can have discrepancies of up to 95m, I know I tried using a satnav once and it tried to tell me I was in the middle of a shopping centre - I didn't bother after that.