What it all comes down to...

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2008, 12:59:48 PM »
It just goes to show the absolute trash Wikipedia articles are.

"Absolute trash", eh?

Do you have any references to back up that (outrageous) unsubstantiated claim?

Read the top of this page and tell me what you think now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception

Edit: a fair point, but ...

How long will it be before someone edits that out, though?

I find that most Wikipedia articles have very zealous editors attached to them.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Robbyj

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2008, 01:12:31 PM »

Edit: a fair point, but ...

How long will it be before someone edits that out, though?

I find that most Wikipedia articles have very zealous editors attached to them.

Sounds like a fun expirement to me.  Link it to your favorites and check it twice a day or so.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2008, 02:20:36 PM »
Quote
and there are references at the end of that section.

The source for that paragraph seems to be a short BBC news article which has zero references and zero sources.

Great reference there.  ::)

It just goes to show the absolute trash Wikipedia articles are.

No the references are...

#21 - Airy, G. B. (November 13, 1846). "Account of some circumstances historically connected with the discovery of the planet exterior to Uranus". Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 7: 121–144. Blackwell Publishing. Retrieved on 2008-02-18.

#23 - Galle, J. G. (November 13, 1846). "Account of the discovery of the planet of Le Verrier at Berlin". Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 7: 153. Blackwell Publishing. Retrieved on 2008-02-18.

Those are the references for that paragraph.

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2008, 02:28:40 PM »
Quote
and there are references at the end of that section.

The source for that paragraph seems to be a short BBC news article which has zero references and zero sources.

Great reference there.  ::)

It just goes to show the absolute trash Wikipedia articles are.

No the references are...

#21 - Airy, G. B. (November 13, 1846). "Account of some circumstances historically connected with the discovery of the planet exterior to Uranus". Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 7: 121–144. Blackwell Publishing. Retrieved on 2008-02-18.

#23 - Galle, J. G. (November 13, 1846). "Account of the discovery of the planet of Le Verrier at Berlin". Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 7: 153. Blackwell Publishing. Retrieved on 2008-02-18.

Those are the references for that paragraph.

Is Tom being 'economical with the truth' again?

One might even accuse him of being deceptive, perhaps.

See this wondeful Wikipedia article for more information on deception (it even cites me!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception

:-)
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2008, 02:29:27 PM »

Edit: a fair point, but ...

How long will it be before someone edits that out, though?

I find that most Wikipedia articles have very zealous editors attached to them.

Sounds like a fun expirement to me.  Link it to your favorites and check it twice a day or so.

A most excellent experiment indeed!

(I am enjoying this!)
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2008, 04:06:15 PM »

Edit: a fair point, but ...

How long will it be before someone edits that out, though?

I find that most Wikipedia articles have very zealous editors attached to them.

Sounds like a fun expirement to me.  Link it to your favorites and check it twice a day or so.

A most excellent experiment indeed!

(I am enjoying this!)

It has already been removed, after about five hours or so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deception&action=history

You could always put your stuff back in but it would just be removed again.

This, what they call an "Edit War", could go on for a day or so then the page would probably get locked down.

I fully accept your point, though, that people - myself included - have started to credit Wikipedia with far too much weight and authority.

And your ("deception") illustration was very witty and elegant in its simplicity, I must say!
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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E349

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2008, 04:08:10 PM »
Quote
Incomplete it may have been, but it was good enough to facilitate the discovery of Neptune:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_Neptune

Covered in Earth Not a Globe:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za60.htm

I may be being somewhat obtuse with this question but, what exactly does this prove? Besides cementing the fact that a man, using a pencil and paper, discovered the existence of a planet (though with a considerable percent error), this exerpt puts the distance of neptune from the Earth well beyond any distance which could exist in the FE model. This exerpt merely proves that calculators in those days sucked. ;)
If not responding is a win, then FET has won many times. You just won a small battle yourself.
Hooray! I am WIN

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E349

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2008, 04:26:43 PM »

Edit: a fair point, but ...

How long will it be before someone edits that out, though?

I find that most Wikipedia articles have very zealous editors attached to them.

Sounds like a fun expirement to me.  Link it to your favorites and check it twice a day or so.

A most excellent experiment indeed!

(I am enjoying this!)

This was brilliant! :)
If not responding is a win, then FET has won many times. You just won a small battle yourself.
Hooray! I am WIN

Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2008, 05:09:46 PM »
I fully accept your point, though, that people - myself included - have started to credit Wikipedia with far too much weight and authority.

Your experiment does show that there is a mechanism in place that will remove inaccurate information, and apparently fairly quickly.

While Wikipedia is not the end all of information, it is a good starting point for information.  With the reference section at the bottom, you can have access to the same information that the writer had.  The scientific information tends to be pretty accurate as well.

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Robbyj

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2008, 05:12:30 PM »
Your experiment does show that there is a mechanism in place that will remove inaccurate information, and apparently fairly quickly.

I bet if I added something that sounds good but is technically incorrect it would last much longer.  Adding a line that effectively says "wiki sucks" wasn't exactly subtle.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2008, 05:23:09 PM »
I bet if I added something that sounds good but is technically incorrect it would last much longer.  Adding a line that effectively says "wiki sucks" wasn't exactly subtle.

My experience is that the people that monitor pages know the topics that they monitor.  It would probably be difficult to "create" information that will pass by someone who is intimately familiar with the information.

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E349

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2008, 06:29:52 PM »
I bet if I added something that sounds good but is technically incorrect it would last much longer.  Adding a line that effectively says "wiki sucks" wasn't exactly subtle.

My experience is that the people that monitor pages know the topics that they monitor.  It would probably be difficult to "create" information that will pass by someone who is intimately familiar with the information.

This is especially true considering that the people who monitor such pages can see when changes have been made and can check such changes for veracity. However, I would not go as far as to say that all of the monitors are "intimately familiar" with the information they monitor.
This was examplified by the following:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-441432/Wikipedia--accurate-online-encyclopedia.html
If not responding is a win, then FET has won many times. You just won a small battle yourself.
Hooray! I am WIN

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2008, 03:19:34 AM »
This is especially true considering that the people who monitor such pages can see when changes have been made and can check such changes for veracity. However, I would not go as far as to say that all of the monitors are "intimately familiar" with the information they monitor.
This was examplified by the following:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-441432/Wikipedia--accurate-online-encyclopedia.html

We are *way* off topic now, but who cares?

What I found most amusing about that article was Edwina Currie - an old-school, sleazy Tory politician who had a secret affair with a married man (John Major) - saying that we could find "the truth" about her on her own web-site?

What a lot of nonsense! Nobody trusts politicians in the UK to tell "the truth" anymore!

Independent biographical information is the only kind you can really trust.

[Edits: paste the full quote; ther -> her]
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 05:16:24 AM by 3 Tesla »
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Parsifal

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2008, 03:20:58 AM »
What a lot of nonsense! Nobody trusts politicians in the UK to tell "the truth" anymore!

Especially since they started saying the Earth was round.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2008, 03:25:32 AM »
What a lot of nonsense! Nobody trusts politicians in the UK to tell "the truth" anymore!

Especially since they started saying the Earth was round.

Edwina Currie is part of the conspiracy?

Heaven help them all!

:-)
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2008, 06:34:34 AM »
While Wikipedia is not the end all of information, it is a good starting point for information.  With the reference section at the bottom, you can have access to the same information that the writer had.  The scientific information tends to be pretty accurate as well.

How about actually demonstrating that Neptune was predicted to a degree of accuracy by finding the original predictions instead of taking the word of a Wikipedia page?

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E349

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2008, 11:27:12 AM »
I have a question: What is the speed of light in the FET? Is it the same as the speed of light in the RET, or do the different forces which are found in the FET influence the speed of light?
If not responding is a win, then FET has won many times. You just won a small battle yourself.
Hooray! I am WIN

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2008, 11:36:52 AM »
I have a question: What is the speed of light in the FET? Is it the same as the speed of light in the RET, or do the different forces which are found in the FET influence the speed of light?

Same    c

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2008, 01:58:18 PM »
While Wikipedia is not the end all of information, it is a good starting point for information.  With the reference section at the bottom, you can have access to the same information that the writer had.  The scientific information tends to be pretty accurate as well.

How about actually demonstrating that Neptune was predicted to a degree of accuracy by finding the original predictions instead of taking the word of a Wikipedia page?

You mean you want him to find the original letters and notebooks from the mathematicians that predicted the existence of Neptune?  Its well documented, but I doubt anybody hear has access to the originals.  Why can't you just go by the documentation?

Neptune was predicted to exist because when they calculated the orbit of Uranus it was found that it did not follow the predicted path, the planets orbit bulged out.  Adams used only the observed orbit of Uranus, and only Newton's law of Gravitation, and accurately predicted the position, orbit, and mass of Neptune.  Another man, Le Verrier, independently predicted the location of Neptune, but not the mass or orbit.

Adams data was not taken seriously at first until Le Verrier confirmed the same prediction, then in a Berlin observatory, the existence of Neptune was confirmed.  Galileo already observed the planet some time earlier, but by accident, also, he thought the planet was a fixed star.

That aside, Neptune is the only planet whose orbit, position and mass were calculated and predicted (location within 1 degree), before visual confirmation.

heres a timeline.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051119031753/www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/nk/neptune/chron.htm

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2008, 03:47:40 PM »
Quote
You mean you want him to find the original letters and notebooks from the mathematicians that predicted the existence of Neptune?  Its well documented, but I doubt anybody hear has access to the originals.  Why can't you just go by the documentation?

Because a one sentence comment on a webpage isn't considered "well documented".

Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2008, 05:18:57 PM »
you can find it in a book my friend, thouasaunds of them go to the library itll blwo your mind hat you will find in there...

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2008, 05:53:19 PM »
Quote
You mean you want him to find the original letters and notebooks from the mathematicians that predicted the existence of Neptune?  Its well documented, but I doubt anybody hear has access to the originals.  Why can't you just go by the documentation?

Because a one sentence comment on a webpage isn't considered "well documented".


Its in the encyclopedia Britannica, among others too.  Is that good enough?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2008, 06:54:52 PM »
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Its in the encyclopedia Britannica, among others too.  Is that good enough?

Proof?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2008, 08:15:28 PM »
Quote
Its in the encyclopedia Britannica, among others too.  Is that good enough?

Proof?

Seriously just search on the history of Neptune, it gives you all the details of its discovery.  What else do you need?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2008, 08:36:24 PM »
Quote
Its in the encyclopedia Britannica, among others too.  Is that good enough?

Proof?

Seriously just search on the history of Neptune, it gives you all the details of its discovery.  What else do you need?

I did and I couldn't find anything about the predictions being "accurate to a degree".

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #85 on: September 26, 2008, 06:46:28 AM »
Quote
Its in the encyclopedia Britannica, among others too.  Is that good enough?

Proof?

Seriously just search on the history of Neptune, it gives you all the details of its discovery.  What else do you need?

I did and I couldn't find anything about the predictions being "accurate to a degree".

sigh, I got the 1 degree part from wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_Neptune#Le_Verrier_in_Paris

But what does the 1 degree part matter?  It doesn't take away from the fact that it was discovered using math.  You can find that on plenty of non wiki pages:

http://www.nineplanets.org/neptune.html
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/neptune/discover.html

It also would be in any legitimate encyclopedia that has the subject.  In fact, I can't find any evidence that it was discovered without math.

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #86 on: September 26, 2008, 11:36:14 AM »
Somebody else (can't remember who) drew attention to this fact and I want to highlight it again:

Neptune was actually seen by other astronomers, and the honour of the theorist obtained additional lustre. But it appears, from a communication of M. Babinet, that this is not the planet of M. Le Verrier. He had placed his planet at a distance from the sun equal to thirty-six times the limit of the terrestrial orbit. Neptune revolves at a distance equal to thirty times of these limits, which makes a difference of nearly two hundred millions of leagues!

Le Verrier predicted that the radius (one of the eliptical axes, probably) of Neptune's orbit was 36 Astronomical Units (the Sun-Earth distance), but Neptune was found to orbit at only 30 Astronimical Units; as reported by Babinet. A *huge* error, I agree.

But ... Both Le Verrier and Babinet agreed that both The Earth and Neptune are in orbit around The Sun. So neither of them were Flat Earth proponents. So the discrepancy between Neptune's predicted and true orbit, huge as it is, does not support a flat Earth.

Babinet supports the observation that the difference between the orbits of Neptune and The Earth is (30-1) Astronomical Units. Converting to miles that's 29 x 92,955,807 = 2,695,718,403 miles. Far, far, far in excess of the distance to the Sun and the planets in Flat Earth Theory (which is only 3,000 miles, I believe).

Whichever way you look at it: the discovery of Neptune is a triumph for the Heliocentric Model of The Solar System and Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2008, 11:43:43 AM »
Somebody else (can't remember who) drew attention to this fact

It was E349 (Ammonium malate? [1])- all credit to her/him:

Quote
Incomplete it may have been, but it was good enough to facilitate the discovery of Neptune:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_Neptune

Covered in Earth Not a Globe:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za60.htm

I may be being somewhat obtuse with this question but, what exactly does this prove? Besides cementing the fact that a man, using a pencil and paper, discovered the existence of a planet (though with a considerable percent error), this exerpt puts the distance of neptune from the Earth well beyond any distance which could exist in the FE model. This exerpt merely proves that calculators in those days sucked. ;)

1. E349: Ammonium malate; acidity regulator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_numbers
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Ski

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2008, 11:59:05 AM »
But ... Both Le Verrier and Babinet agreed that both The Earth and Neptune are in orbit around The Sun. So neither of them were Flat Earth proponents. So the discrepancy between Neptune's predicted and true orbit, huge as it is, does not support a flat Earth.

Person A and B are both wrong by orders of magnitude in reference to thesis D. But .. both believe anti-E. Therefore E is manifestly wrong?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Robbyj

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Re: What it all comes down to...
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2008, 02:13:07 PM »
Whoa, I thought you were dead or something.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?