Athiest World

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #330 on: December 03, 2008, 02:26:11 PM »
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Edit?

Thanks man didn't notice  :-\ appreciate that. I edited

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Why couldn't the universe itself (or the particles which caused the Big Bang) share this definition? Could it not have always been?

Simply because we all know that the universe is working based on mechanism and things that keeps it working, like the expanding...etc and it needs this or that...etc while God doesn't that's why. Some people call it super-natural power, some people call it Almighty God and some others call it Allah. Almighty God is sufficient he doesn't need anything that keeps him live, working...etc the universe is effected by the creations...etc The universe is expanding, There exists a cosmic background radiation field detectable at microwave frequencies and countless other things can be said.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 02:29:23 PM by AbdulAziz »
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #331 on: December 03, 2008, 02:34:51 PM »
The universe is based on mechanisms?
They have made significant progress simplifying every aspect in the universe. Not too long ago, the four universal laws got condensed into two. If and when the grand unified theory is discovered, those two will result in one truth from which all physics extends. The universe has properties, but not mechanisms.

Why is god allowed outside the laws of physics? We had no reason to believe anything should/would/could be, until religion convinced us of his existence. Suddenly, its no problem.  ;)

The universe is expanding due to dark energy or anti gravitational waves or an unknown alternative.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 02:37:07 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #332 on: December 03, 2008, 02:46:24 PM »
If you say god does a better alternative than the big bang, because of his abilities, try to look at it from my perspective that god could be invented for that purpose with abilities without justification. A magical being in the sky that is undetectable in every way with unlimited abilities could be used to explain anything unknown.

Why is it that religion is found in every culture, separate or not from the outside world's influence? Religion is man made. To think your own religion is correct is just as natural.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #333 on: December 03, 2008, 02:52:16 PM »
The universe is based on mechanisms?
They have made significant progress simplifying every aspect in the universe. Not too long ago, the four universal laws got condensed into two. If and when the grand unified theory is discovered, those two will result in one truth from which all physics extends. The universe has properties, but not mechanisms.

Why is god allowed outside the laws of physics? We had no reason to believe anything should/would/could be, until religion convinced us of his existence. Suddenly, its no problem.  ;)

The universe is expanding due to dark energy or anti gravitational waves or an unknown alternative.

To put it simply, does the universe change, get effected by other things, does it have ending, does it depend on something else :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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General Douchebag

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #334 on: December 03, 2008, 02:57:40 PM »
Is that relevant? You say that everything that exists requires a creator, so either find God a creator, or admit that he doesn't exist. Unless you want to contradict yourself as much as your scriptures.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #335 on: December 03, 2008, 02:58:35 PM »
does the universe change
Yes, it is expanding.
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get effected by other things
Universe affected by other things? Like what?
Stuff inside it?
If stuff inside it is alright, than yes, because mass warps it (assuming spacetime fits the definition of  universe).

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does it have ending
Unclear, but unlikely.
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does it depend on something else :)
No?... Like what?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #336 on: December 03, 2008, 03:04:21 PM »
Is that relevant? You say that everything that exists requires a creator, so either find God a creator, or admit that he doesn't exist. Unless you want to contradict yourself as much as your scriptures.

Thank you.

That is the biggest hypocrisies with religion who spend all this time 'proving' that things that look complicated could only have been designed by a creator then turn around and say the very complicated creator doesn't need one.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #337 on: December 03, 2008, 03:50:11 PM »
Is that relevant? You say that everything that exists requires a creator, so either find God a creator, or admit that he doesn't exist. Unless you want to contradict yourself as much as your scriptures.

Yeah it's so relevant because I am using common sense :) if things that end it has a beginning, an even it has a reason that caused that even to occur, and that cause there should be someone that was the cause, that's reasoning, that's common sense. I still didn't quote anything of my scriptures but if you want me to quote here is a verse >>>

"Have they been created without a purpose, or are they themselves the creators ?  Did they create the heavens and the earth ? Nay, but they have no faith in the Creator."

Allah when using this question, he is using the common sense of humans, because any sane humans knows that something cannot start or have a beginning without a creator. And there are other verses where he asks is there any doubt in Almighty God?  Allah want us to use reasoning and common sense because simply common and natural "Fitra" knows that however I admit among us there are people with blind "Fitra"  :)

However I don't want to use verses to support what I am saying because it's a common sense to all sane humans, ask Christians, Jews, Muslims....etc they would accept. Tell me, aren't we all agree that a "Part" of something is less than "The Whole Thing" right? no sane humans would say its equal or more...

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Yes, it is expanding.

So it's being affected, something that can be changed it can end. Scientists today has already proven that the universe is rely on other things and it changes, it has beginning...etc This universe is always having events, changes and something that does have a beginning has a cause and cause there must be someone a reason for that cause. Nothingness in mind might be thought but in reality if we apply there will be nothing, so a base must be there, the beginning that is not affected by events, causes, not created....etc we call that Almighty God not affected, not changed, always there, always will be....etc The problem with some people they went to make the eternal (Almighty God) like something that happened or get affected by other things, or can started, or changed because thats the attributes of the eternal, the first, the sufficient while scientists proved that the attributes of the universe is no where like that, thus by common sense and reasoning the universe cannot be god or always there always will be....etc
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Raist

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #338 on: December 03, 2008, 03:52:52 PM »
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Because keys are a non naturally occurring phenomena, and therefore are generally made for something. The same can not be said about the universe. When you see a rock what automatically comes to mind? I'm betting it isn't carbon dioxide being dissolved in the ocean and animals depositing this into rocks.

When you see in the dessert foot marks? what comes to your mind?

When you see a House built in the middle of the desert what comes to your mind?


When I see foot steps I see the sand was moved. God leaves no footprints in the ground. The very definition of house means it was built by man. That is quite the leading question.

I have a better question for you, Any author will sign his book, where on this Earth is a signature? (I am not arguing against god, I am arguing against these flawed arguments)

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #339 on: December 03, 2008, 04:03:12 PM »
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if things that end it has a beginning, an even it has a reason that caused that even to occur, and that cause there should be someone that was the cause, that's reasoning, that's common sense.

So when did God begin and who created him?

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #340 on: December 03, 2008, 04:07:36 PM »
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When I see foot steps I see the sand was moved. God leaves no footprints in the ground. The very definition of house means it was built by man. That is quite the leading question.

I have a better question for you, Any author will sign his book, where on this Earth is a signature? (I am not arguing against god, I am arguing against these flawed arguments)
[/quote]

You didn't get it maybe, the reasons I said that it raise a question, who moved here, animal, human...etc the same thing goes for House you know that a great skilled creature would have built that of course when you have no knowledge at all then you would never realize that :) the same thing for the universe when you see all the mechanism and the great system and all the other things in the universe you know there a great system far beyond the ability of humans, when just seeing around the universe, earth, human body....etc that same questions raise, the idea of always there, all will remain, it came by itself will never come to a sane man, ask any human being.

Suppose now that you asked me to prove that God exists and I told you ok I will come to your house, and between my house and your house there was a river and after long time I arrived to your home, just think of this, you would ask why your late! if I told you that: "Guess what Raist, while I wanted to cross the river, a boat came out of nowhere, and there was other sort of good things moving by itself from one side to another" what will be your reaction? a liar! how it came out of nothingness...etc having the things that you can benefit from...etc thats natural because that's common sense, I would simply reply then if you couldn't believe even such a small thing like a boat which is not even an insect compared to the universe how you can believe the universe doesn't have a creator or something that started or organized its systems? Wallah, Wallah and a third Wallah a sane human would realize that :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #341 on: December 03, 2008, 04:09:37 PM »
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So when did God begin and who created him?

Please read my previous posts n_n

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If you asked this question it will mean your putting God in the same category of his creations which is wrong. Because God by definition cannot be like his creations. God is known as the one who create not get created, if he was created than he shouldn't be considered a God but the one who created Him then again you would ask then who created the one who created the supposed God? you see the chain! but if you know the definition of Almighty God and his attributes you would realize there is no need for this question in the first Place. Because he is the one who created and he is not created, he is the first nothing before him and the last nothing will remain after him, this is Almighty God

All these questions your raising is because you have not yet defined Almighty God and knew his attributes...
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

*

Raist

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #342 on: December 03, 2008, 04:21:05 PM »
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When I see foot steps I see the sand was moved. God leaves no footprints in the ground. The very definition of house means it was built by man. That is quite the leading question.

I have a better question for you, Any author will sign his book, where on this Earth is a signature? (I am not arguing against god, I am arguing against these flawed arguments)

You didn't get it maybe, the reasons I said that it raise a question, who moved here, animal, human...etc the same thing goes for House you know that a great skilled creature would have built that of course when you have no knowledge at all then you would never realize that :) the same thing for the universe when you see all the mechanism and the great system and all the other things in the universe you know there a great system far beyond the ability of humans, when just seeing around the universe, earth, human body....etc that same questions raise, the idea of always there, all will remain, it came by itself will never come to a sane man, ask any human being.

Suppose now that you asked me to prove that God exists and I told you ok I will come to your house, and between my house and your house there was a river and after long time I arrived to your home, just think of this, you would ask why your late! if I told you that: "Guess what Raist, while I wanted to cross the river, a boat came out of nowhere, and there was other sort of good things moving by itself from one side to another" what will be your reaction? a liar! how it came out of nothingness...etc having the things that you can benefit from...etc thats natural because that's common sense, I would simply reply then if you couldn't believe even such a small thing like a boat which is not even an insect compared to the universe how you can believe the universe doesn't have a creator or something that started or organized its systems? Wallah, Wallah and a third Wallah a sane human would realize that :)
[/quote]

A boat appearing out of nowhere would have disastrous consequences. I wouldn't believe you because of the statistics and the fact that it would lead to a massive explosion most likely.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #343 on: December 03, 2008, 05:17:42 PM »
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A boat appearing out of nowhere would have disastrous consequences. I wouldn't believe you because of the statistics and the fact that it would lead to a massive explosion most likely.

Why is that? believe the absence of the knowledge about "Almighty God" and his attributes is the only reason why most of you are so confused. In fact most humans, since the beginning till now they believe in the existence of God, those who deny the existence of the creator are few compared to those who believe in Almighty God, you can never claim they are having more knowledge or access to use common sense, reasons more than those who believes, simply because that's in their "Fitra" natural being. It's same as when we pray or want divine help we see up and we don' see down :P

You couldn't believe what I said, you want me to believe that the universe was always there, will always be there, it wasn't created by someone  ;D again?  ;D ! read what scientist already said about this so called universe and then you would realize why it has a beginning and why it should have an end, why it cannot be sufficient and why it cannot be creator to the originator of the universe.
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #344 on: December 03, 2008, 05:28:09 PM »
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Yes, it is expanding.

So it's being affected, something that can be changed it can end. Scientists today has already proven that the universe is rely on other things and it changes, it has beginning...etc This universe is always having events, changes and something that does have a beginning has a cause and cause there must be someone a reason for that cause. Nothingness in mind might be thought but in reality if we apply there will be nothing, so a base must be there, the beginning that is not affected by events, causes, not created....etc we call that Almighty God not affected, not changed, always there, always will be....etc The problem with some people they went to make the eternal (Almighty God) like something that happened or get affected by other things, or can started, or changed because thats the attributes of the eternal, the first, the sufficient while scientists proved that the attributes of the universe is no where like that, thus by common sense and reasoning the universe cannot be god or always there always will be....etc
Its expanding due to negative pressure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

Dark energy is not the same as god. I would please ask you to stop quoting the Quaran, because it is not a scientific piece of evidence. The alleged word of god must be proven to be the word of god, before it becomes a valid part of discussion and debate.

As for the beginning argument: God was ascribed the status of not having a beginning. You assume he exists, and that he has no beginning. After defining him this way, you say it is because he has no beginning that makes him immune to causality. This is circular, in that god is defined for that very purpose.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 05:30:07 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Athiest World
« Reply #345 on: December 03, 2008, 05:35:31 PM »
God has been defined as eternal for millenia before that argument was formulated.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #346 on: December 03, 2008, 05:48:55 PM »
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Its expanding due to negative pressure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

Dark energy is not the same as god. I would please ask you to stop quoting the Quaran, because it is not a scientific piece of evidence. The alleged word of god must be proven to be the word of god, before it becomes a valid part of discussion and debate.

As for the beginning argument: God was ascribed the status of not having a beginning. You assume he exists, and that he has no beginning. After defining him this way, you say it is because he has no beginning that makes him immune to causality. This is circular, in that god is defined for that very purpose.

before answering, may I ask when I quoted the Quran :) and before answering also I would like you to define: "ALMIGHTY GOD" that is known in definition not in in religions and what are the universal known attributes of God and their meanings :) then you would realize why your confused.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 05:52:20 PM by AbdulAziz »
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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T.T. Monsieur

Re: Athiest World
« Reply #347 on: December 03, 2008, 05:51:28 PM »
"Have they been created without a purpose, or are they themselves the creators ?  Did they create the heavens and the earth ? Nay, but they have no faith in the Creator."

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #348 on: December 03, 2008, 05:53:50 PM »
"Have they been created without a purpose, or are they themselves the creators ?  Did they create the heavens and the earth ? Nay, but they have no faith in the Creator."

Read that same post again to know the reason for quotation I never used it as evidence :) and read the post before that post of mine! do you always act this way?  ;D
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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T.T. Monsieur

Re: Athiest World
« Reply #349 on: December 03, 2008, 05:56:16 PM »
You asked when you quoted the Quran. Always glad to help. ;)

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #350 on: December 03, 2008, 06:08:32 PM »
You asked when you quoted the Quran. Always glad to help. ;)

Like u man  ;D
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Raist

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #351 on: December 03, 2008, 06:13:50 PM »
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A boat appearing out of nowhere would have disastrous consequences. I wouldn't believe you because of the statistics and the fact that it would lead to a massive explosion most likely.

Why is that? believe the absence of the knowledge about "Almighty God" and his attributes is the only reason why most of you are so confused. In fact most humans, since the beginning till now they believe in the existence of God, those who deny the existence of the creator are few compared to those who believe in Almighty God, you can never claim they are having more knowledge or access to use common sense, reasons more than those who believes, simply because that's in their "Fitra" natural being. It's same as when we pray or want divine help we see up and we don' see down :P

You couldn't believe what I said, you want me to believe that the universe was always there, will always be there, it wasn't created by someone  ;D again?  ;D ! read what scientist already said about this so called universe and then you would realize why it has a beginning and why it should have an end, why it cannot be sufficient and why it cannot be creator to the originator of the universe.

I believe that because if all those particles quantum tunneled to this part of space, a couple thousand of them would probably appear against atoms already here, this would cause fusion, and fission and what not.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #352 on: December 03, 2008, 06:25:37 PM »
The thing is atheists don't know what caused the universe to begin, and anything they say is not based on evidence but based on personal opinions only. Because they do not know what was 'before' the universe or big bang, and they have no solid proof for their opinions however if they knew the attributes of Almighty God (or what I call as Allah) they would have realized that Almighty's God existence is a must to a universe so all things in the universe be called exists. Suppose now there is a table, and I ask you hey can you help me to left the table, you would say yeah but I need help from that person, then when that person would come he would say yeah but I need help from the person that helped me to come into existence, then when that person would come he would say the same thing again, again and again! why! simply because the attributes of being the first, no one before him and he is not like his creations is not accepted or not understandable to them that's why they keep repeating the same question, who created God :) dear Raist,
we cannot see emotions physically, but we see their product; tears, smile etc. The hormones in our body cause us to get these feelings, however the feelings cannot be physically seen except through their product for example tears, laugh etc... Like that, we see the universe around us, and how it is sustained and controlled for so long doesn't that would immediately for the sane mind would make him believe that this is the product of an All Powerful, Knowing and Wise Creator. This is not my believe but this is what we call Fitra which is in all humans whose Fitra are not corrupted :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Vauxhall

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #353 on: December 03, 2008, 06:40:43 PM »
The thing is atheists don't know what caused the universe to begin, and anything they say is not based on evidence but based on personal opinions only. Because they do not know what was 'before' the universe or big bang, and they have no solid proof for their opinions however if they knew the attributes of Almighty God (or what I call as Allah) they would have realized that Almighty's God existence is a must to a universe so all things in the universe be called exists. Suppose now there is a table, and I ask you hey can you help me to left the table, you would say yeah but I need help from that person, then when that person would come he would say yeah but I need help from the person that helped me to come into existence, then when that person would come he would say the same thing again, again and again! why! simply because the attributes of being the first, no one before him and he is not like his creations is not accepted or not understandable to them that's why they keep repeating the same question, who created God :) dear Raist,
we cannot see emotions physically, but we see their product; tears, smile etc. The hormones in our body cause us to get these feelings, however the feelings cannot be physically seen except through their product for example tears, laugh etc... Like that, we see the universe around us, and how it is sustained and controlled for so long doesn't that would immediately for the sane mind would make him believe that this is the product of an All Powerful, Knowing and Wise Creator. This is not my believe but this is what we call Fitra which is in all humans whose Fitra are not corrupted :)

Read the FAQS.

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Raist

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #354 on: December 03, 2008, 06:56:07 PM »
The thing is atheists don't know what caused the universe to begin,\

Neither do theists.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #355 on: December 03, 2008, 06:58:13 PM »
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Lol I assume when you can't reply you use these methods, lol not far from what was described about people like you in the Quran >>>

Verily, thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they retreat turning their backs. And thou canst not guide the blind out of their error. Thou canst make only those to hear who believe in Our Signs, so they submit.

This Also >>>

And when it is said to them, `Believe as other people have believed,' they say, `Shall we believe as the fools have believed ?' Remember ! it is surely they that are the fools, but they do not know. And when they meet those who believe, they say, `We believe;' but when they are alone with their ring-leaders they say, `We were only mocking.'  ALLAH will punish their mockery and will let them continue in their transgression, wandering blindly. These are they who have bartered away guidance for error, but their traffic has brought them no gain, nor are they rightly guided.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 07:01:18 PM by AbdulAziz »
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #356 on: December 03, 2008, 06:58:51 PM »
The thing is atheists don't know what caused the universe to begin,\

Neither do theists.

We do :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

?

Sean

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #357 on: December 03, 2008, 06:59:59 PM »
Quote from: sokarul
Better bring a better augment, something not so stupid.

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Raist

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #358 on: December 03, 2008, 07:00:24 PM »


religion of peace.

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Sean

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Re: Athiest World
« Reply #359 on: December 03, 2008, 07:01:38 PM »
Quote from: sokarul
Better bring a better augment, something not so stupid.