Testing the Round Earth Hypothesis

As I understand it, this is how (good) science works:

First you make some observations. Then you develop a theory to explain your observations. Then you make a model based on your theory. Then you and - more importantly - other people make some more observations.

If the new observations are explained adequately by (i.e. "fit") the model then the model stands. If the new observations are *not* explained adequately by (i.e. "do not fit") the model then the model falls.

In The Flat Earth debate there are two main models (as far as I can tell):

1. The earth is flat; The Sun and Moon circle overhead; "gravity" is caused by The Universal Accelaration; light bends due to "the aether" (explaining sunrise/sunset).

2. The Earth is round; The Earth is in orbit around The Sun and The Moon is in orbit around The Earth; gravity is a 'force' caused by the mass of The Earth (Newton or Einstein/GR); there is no "aether" and light travels in straight lines (ignoring extremely massive objects like black holes and galaxies!).

Now the Round Earth Model is *very* widely accepted but that is no real proof that it is true (argument ad populum, as the Romans used to say, is false).

So I would like to invite people to come up with observations which "do not fit" the Round Earth Model.

In this way we can test this popular thoery in a rigorous scientific fashion (which should be fun!).

At the moment I am not interested in testing the Flat Earth Model, but somebody else can start a thread for that one if they want to.

Many thanks!

[Edit: tidy up formatting]

I'll bet you get a lot of gravity posts. We can't adequately describe gravity so a number of the FE regulars take that as some kind of weakness. They can't explain it fully either though, and at least I can map my world effectively.

As I understand it, this is how (good) science works:

First you make some observations. Then you develop a theory to explain your observations. Then you make a model based on your theory. Then you and - more importantly - other people make some more observations.

If the new observations are explained adequately by (i.e. "fit") the model then the model stands. If the new observations are *not* explained adequately by (i.e. "do not fit") the model then the model falls.

In The Flat Earth debate there are two main models (as far as I can tell):

1. The earth is flat; The Sun and Moon circle overhead; "gravity" is caused by The Universal Accelaration; light bends due to "the aether" (explaining sunrise/sunset).

2. The Earth is round; The Earth is in orbit around The Sun and The Moon is in orbit around The Earth; gravity is a 'force' caused by the mass of The Earth (Newton or Einstein/GR); there is no "aether" and light travels in straight lines (ignoring extremely massive objects like black holes and galaxies!).

Now the Round Earth Model is *very* widely accepted but that is no real proof that it is true (argument ad populum, as the Romans used to say, is false).

So I would like to invite people to come up with observations which "do not fit" the Round Earth Model.

In this way we can test this popular thoery in a rigorous scientific fashion (which should be fun!).

At the moment I am not interested in testing the Flat Earth Model, but somebody else can start a thread for that one if they want to.

Many thanks!

[Edit: tidy up formatting]

I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?

2. The Earth is round; The Earth is in orbit around The Sun and The Moon is in orbit around The Earth; gravity is a 'force' caused by the mass of The Earth (Newton or Einstein/GR); there is no "aether" and light travels in straight lines (ignoring extremely massive objects like black holes and galaxies!).

None of that is true, even in RET, except maybe the aether part.

"I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?"

That sounds exciting!

Do you have any evidence though (science is an evidence-based activity)?

Some photographs, or a video perhaps?

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 04:53:10 AM

2. The Earth is round; The Earth is in orbit around The Sun and The Moon is in orbit around The Earth; gravity is a 'force' caused by the mass of The Earth (Newton or Einstein/GR); there is no "aether" and light travels in straight lines (ignoring extremely massive objects like black holes and galaxies!).

None of that is true, even in RET, except maybe the aether part.

Please provide an observation (data/fact) which directly contradicts that model.

Just saying "none of that is true" is rather simplistic and dismissive.

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:13:17 AM

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 04:53:10 AM

2. The Earth is round; The Earth is in orbit around The Sun and The Moon is in orbit around The Earth; gravity is a 'force' caused by the mass of The Earth (Newton or Einstein/GR); there is no "aether" and light travels in straight lines (ignoring extremely massive objects like black holes and galaxies!).

None of that is true, even in RET, except maybe the aether part.

Please provide an observation (data/fact) which directly contradicts that model.

Just saying "none of that is true" is rather simplistic and dismissive.

You must be new here. Get used to being pissed off by dismissive tactics. You can fire back but it's not worth it. I know the world is round. You know the world is round. Why are we here?  I don't know about you but I'm here to drive a stake into any festering lesion I can find on FET. It's really satisfying when you drive one home.

Gravity is not a force caused by mass and things other than massive objects can bend light.

"I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?"

That sounds exciting!

Do you have any evidence though (science is an evidence-based activity)?

Some photographs, or a video perhaps?

I could take you on a trip if you want.

I don't know about you but I'm here to drive a stake into any festering lesion I can find on FET. It's really satisfying when you drive one home.

You have yet to realize that most FE'ers don't want to be driven home but would rather stay at the party. It's much more fun there anyway. More booze.

Just saying "none of that is true" is rather simplistic and dismissive.

Just as bad as REers invoking fallacies to justify their beliefs.

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:14:21 AM

"I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?"

That sounds exciting!

Do you have any evidence though (science is an evidence-based activity)?

Some photographs, or a video perhaps?

I could take you on a trip if you want.

Nah - too cold.

Just show me the photo's, thanks.

Gravity is not a force caused by mass

What is it caused by, then?

and things other than massive objects can bend light.

Such as (please name one)?

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

Gravity is not a force caused by mass

What is it caused by, then?

Following geodesics in space-time curvature

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

and things other than massive objects can bend light.

Such as (please name one)?

Uh... water.

Quote from: Pretentious Twat on September 17, 2008, 05:34:17 AM

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:14:21 AM

"I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?"

That sounds exciting!

Do you have any evidence though (science is an evidence-based activity)?

Some photographs, or a video perhaps?

I could take you on a trip if you want.

Nah - too cold.

Just show me the photo's, thanks.

Showing you the photos is completely useless. All that will happen is you'll claim they're faked. To remove this option from your mind I'm willing to take you on a trip.

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:39:17 AM

Quote from: Pretentious Twat on September 17, 2008, 05:34:17 AM

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:14:21 AM

"I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?"

That sounds exciting!

Do you have any evidence though (science is an evidence-based activity)?

Some photographs, or a video perhaps?

I could take you on a trip if you want.

Nah - too cold.

Just show me the photo's, thanks.

Showing you the photos is completely useless. All that will happen is you'll claim they're faked. To remove this option from your mind I'm willing to take you on a trip.

Actually I would believe you (unless they were obviously dodgy, that is) - I'm a very trusting person.

But I get your point.

I think that the ability for trust and cooperation is one of humanity's greatest assests; one which has taken us out of the caves and into the skies.

(I used to say "to The Moon" but that is a moot point in Flat earth circles!)

I think that the ability for trust and cooperation is one of humanity's greatest assests

Well, we definitely disagree there.

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:41:33 AM

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

Gravity is not a force caused by mass

What is it caused by, then?

Following geodesics in space-time curvature

Ah - I get you.

General relativity, curved space time, and all that - good solid science.

For practical puropses, though (e.g. to The Moon and back), Newton and his gravitational "force" - G.M1.M2/r^2 - is perfectly adequate.

Quote

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

and things other than massive objects can bend light.

Such as (please name one)?

Uh... water.

OK - refraction - but that's "bent" as in crooked, not "bent" as in curved!

(Unless there is a temperateure gradient in the water giving rise to a gradient in refractive index!)

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:55:26 AM

I think that the ability for trust and cooperation is one of humanity's greatest assests

Well, we definitely disagree there.

Because you are a nihilist and I am a humanist!

Have a nice day!

In a bleak, pointless, worthless and ultimately futile kind of way, that is ...

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:41:33 AM

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

Gravity is not a force caused by mass

What is it caused by, then?

Following geodesics in space-time curvature

What causes space-time to become curved, then?

Mass, surely?

Can energy?

Is it inherently curved in places too?

Quote from: Pretentious Twat on September 17, 2008, 05:08:56 AM

I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?

Only NASA spies and penguin assaasins get to bungee jump off the ice wall. You are therefore a NASA spy. I am putting tin foil over my screen now so you can't find out my password.

Quote from: Robbyj

Quote

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

and things other than massive objects can bend light.

Such as (please name one)?

Uh... water.

Are you saying water doesn't have mass?!

Ghah.

Oh come on - you don't get appreciable "gravitational lensing" around rain-drops do you?

Edit: if you *did* life would be one, long acid-trip!

When did I say anything about gravitational lensing?

Why should something without mass cause light to bend? Come to think of it, what matter doesn't have mass? The only thing I can think of is light - but light is not matter. Does it matter? What's the matter with you?

Massive -adjective, something having mass.

He said "such as black hole and galaxies" inferring Massive-adjective, big

Quote from: Pretentious Twat on September 17, 2008, 05:08:56 AM

I went and bungee jumped off the edge of the earth into outer space from the ice wall. How is this explained in RET?

Only NASA spies and penguin assaasins get to bungee jump off the ice wall. You are therefore a NASA spy. I am putting tin foil over my screen now so you can't find out my password.

Quote from: Robbyj

Quote

Quote from: Robbyj on September 17, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

and things other than massive objects can bend light.

Such as (please name one)?

Uh... water.

Are you saying water doesn't have mass?!

Ghah.

I've never seen any NASA spies or penguin assassins. You come across as quite paranoid.

Quote from: 3 Tesla on September 17, 2008, 05:55:26 AM

I think that the ability for trust and cooperation is one of humanity's greatest assests

Well, we definitely disagree there.

I don't know, I think that a certain amount of trust in other people is pretty much required to get by in life these days.  Things like trusting that the people at the restaurant didn't spit in your food, or that the driver of the vehicle that you're in will get you where you're going in one piece.

Does anybody have any other observations which are not explained by ("do not fit") the Round Earth Hypothesis/Model?

(Preferably ones which don't involve travelling to Antarctica and bungee jumping off the edge of The Earth in order to verify.)

I am eager to be put in a postion where I have to defend my theory for a change!

Does anybody have any other observations which are not explained by ("do not fit") the Round Earth Hypothesis/Model?

(Preferably ones which don't involve travelling to Antarctica and bungee jumping off the edge of The Earth in order to verify.)

I am eager to be put in a postion where I have to defend my theory for a change!

Selenelions.

Selenelions.

Interesting!

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_eclipse

A selenelion or selenehelion occurs when both the Sun and the eclipsed Moon can be observed at the same time.

This can only happen just before sunset or just after sunrise, and both bodies will appear just above the horizon at nearly opposite points in the sky.

Although the Moon is in the Earth's geometrical shadow, the Sun and the eclipsed Moon can appear in the sky at the same time because the refraction of light through the Earth's atmosphere causes objects [i.e. the setting/rising Sun and the rising/setting Moon] near the horizon to appear higher in the sky than their true geometric position.

A perfectly reasonable scientific explanation.

So, no, Selenelions don't disprove The Round Earth Hypothesis.

Interesting!

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_eclipse

A selenelion or selenehelion occurs when both the Sun and the eclipsed Moon can be observed at the same time.

This can only happen just before sunset or just after sunrise, and both bodies will appear just above the horizon at nearly opposite points in the sky.

Although the Moon is in the Earth's geometrical shadow, the Sun and the eclipsed Moon can appear in the sky at the same time because the refraction of light through the Earth's atmosphere causes objects [i.e. the setting/rising Sun and the rising/setting Moon] near the horizon to appear higher in the sky than their true geometric position.

A perfectly reasonable scientific explanation.

So, no, Selenelions don't disprove The Round Earth Hypothesis.

If you'll do a search for them, I think I recall Tom Bishop mentioning that people have observed lunar eclipses when the Sun and Moon are both significantly above the horizon, something RET fails to explain.