How will Jesus defeat GOD the Father.......Does anybody know?

John.11:[25]Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, [26]and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.

When the Father decreed the following; Genesis.6:[3]Then the LORD said: "My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."

His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."
His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."

Now, if we accept that Jesus is the LAWLESS one for abolishing the Father's laws, we will have to consider on how Jesus will be able to defeat GOD and allow us never to die, does anybody know how Jesus is going to defeat the Father?

Whut?

You post makes no sense.  Please try again.

John.11:[25]Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, [26]and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.

When the Father decreed the following; Genesis.6:[3]Then the LORD said: "My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."

His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."
His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."

Now, if we accept that Jesus is the LAWLESS one for abolishing the Father's laws, we will have to consider on how Jesus will be able to defeat GOD and allow us never to die, does anybody know how Jesus is going to defeat the Father?

I suggest you look into the difference between the Old and New testaments.

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.

Spiritually.

His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."

Physically.

It's a waste of time trying to point out contradictions in the Bibles.  People who believe that they are true documents also believe that zombie Jesus will save them, that he was born from a virgin, that all the animals on the world once sat in a single boat etc. etc.  Clearly logic and reason are not going to be successful tools for showing them that they're wrong. 

Possibly nothing can be done about religious delusions.  I'm yet to hear of a significantly successful way of educating people, although I have managed to convert one fundamentalist Christian into an atheist.  I largely used constant scorn and derision for a few years.

In before Althalus.

It's a waste of time trying to point out contradictions in the Bibles.  People who believe that they are true documents also believe that zombie Jesus will save them

Jesus was categorically not a zombie.

that he was born from a virgin

Virgin birth is posssible today with modern technology. Why wouldn't an all powerful all knowing being be able to do it a few millenia ago?

that all the animals on the world once sat in a single boat etc. etc.

Fish.

Clearly logic and reason are not going to be successful tools for showing them that they're wrong. 

Boo hoo people won't accept my opinions as fact.

Possibly nothing can be done about religious delusions.  I'm yet to hear of a significantly successful way of educating people, although I have managed to convert one fundamentalist Christian into an atheist.  I largely used constant scorn and derision for a few years.

Possibly nothing can be done about atheistic delusions.  I'm yet to hear of a significantly successful way of educating people, although I have managed to convert one fundamentalist atheist into a Christian.  I largely used loving acceptance and reasoning for a few years.

Edit: How did you know I would post in this thread Oscar?

You haven't rebutted the point I've made at all.

The beliefs of Christianity and other religions are clearly not represented by the facts we know about how the world works.  Religious people choose to believe their delusions instead of objective independent evidence.  Therefore you can't use objective independent evidence to show them that their beliefs are illogical.

Instead of playing pedantic word games, why not address the point from a logical and reasoned position?  But of course you can't, or you wouldn't be opposing my position.

Day to day observation shows us how the natural world works.

God isn't natural and isn't subject to the laws of nature.

Seems fairly logical.

What's your evidence for that claim?

Rational thought.

I rest my case.

Yeah, atheists ignore reason and are irrational.

Quote from: Punisher on September 16, 2008, 08:25:27 PM

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.

Spiritually.

Quote from: Punisher on September 16, 2008, 08:25:27 PM

His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years."

Physically.

You say: “Does one ever really die? NO. the body dies, but not the spirit.” Apparently you are trying to say that since no one really dies, Christ didn’t lie when he said, “Verily I say unto you, There shall be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matthew 16:28).

My Response: Since YOU know no one really dies, I will assume that Christ also knows (Christ being God and all). But if Christ knew this, what is the point of His words as recorded in Matthew 16:28?? It should be evident to the average reader that when Christ said that some (but not all) those he was addressing would not die before his return, he was clearly saying that others would taste of death. Did Christ lie about this, or is it just that Christ is not as smart as you.

It is both amazing and amusing to observe the mental and verbal gymnastics that Christians employ as they attempt to defend their Bible. It is sad that often in their defense they must first establish that the Bible doesn’t really mean exactly what it says, and they fail to realize that this fact alone disproves any claims of the Bible’s divine origin.

Whut?

You post makes no sense.  Please try again.

Okay how's this, if GOD allowed the bible to be tampered with, its because HE disapproves of it. Book Of Enoch is untampered and consistent from page to page governed by the hand of True GOD of Creation...

All belief systems evolved from this Book, all the New and Old testament fundamentals came from Enoch, oldest Dead Sea Scrolls belong to Enoch, the one who writes the story first is the author of that story.

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/enoch.html

Hope this help's.

I ask Christians usually if Jesus was god and all, why he never said: "I am God, Worship Me" in the Bible there is no verse NOT A SINGLE VERSE that Jesus says: "I am God, Worship Me" unlike the Almighty God of Jews, Muslim, Hindus and other religions who believes in god.

Why Jesus never said something like that, that tell the humans his position clearly >>>

"Verily , I am ALLAH; there is no god but I, so worship ME alone and observe Prayer for my remembrance;"


Allah & Jesus on the day of judgment >>>

And when ALLAH will say, `O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, `Take me and my mother for two gods beside ALLAH ?' he will answer, `Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things; I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship ALLAH, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things; If Thou punish them, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them, Thou surely art the Mighty, the Wise.

Yeah, atheists ignore reason and are irrational.

 

Beast: You say you converted one person who believed in the literal truth of the bible to atheism. Good for you, I guess. But the world is not divided neatly into those 2 camps. I think there's a much broader group of religious people who believe the bible is a collection of stories and look to it for spiritual guidance and not for scientific guidance.

You seem to think the religious world and the scientific world can not co-exist. I disagree. I do agree that the vocal minority of the religious folks probably can not reconcile their faith with science, but I believe there a larger silent majority out there who can. 

You seem to think the religious world and the scientific world can not co-exist. I disagree. I do agree that the vocal minority of the religious folks probably can not reconcile their faith with science, but I believe there a larger silent majority out there who can. 

I don't see the point of trying to reconcile religion with science. I've known people who have argued that God created the Big Bang and set up the rules so that life could evolve as it did, but no longer played an active role, and I always fail to see their logic. If God did such a thing, then:

a) There is absolutely no way we could prove his existence or non-existence.
b) He chose a very roundabout way of doing things, since you would think an omnipotent creator could just snap his metaphorical fingers and everything would be in place, rather than having to wait thirteen billion years for everything to unfold.

But most importantly:

c) It does not matter whether or not God exists in this scenario, for if we do not interact with him in any way, then what consequence could his existence or non-existence possibly have?

Quote from: oldsoldier on September 17, 2008, 07:31:19 AM

You seem to think the religious world and the scientific world can not co-exist. I disagree. I do agree that the vocal minority of the religious folks probably can not reconcile their faith with science, but I believe there a larger silent majority out there who can. 

I don't see the point of trying to reconcile religion with science. I've known people who have argued that God created the Big Bang and set up the rules so that life could evolve as it did, but no longer played an active role, and I always fail to see their logic. If God did such a thing, then:

It (the universe) could be this. But more to the point... let's take 2 religious people. One actively seeks to convince you the bible is the literal truth and the other is less "in your face" about it. It sounds to me like you would be actively in both people's face to try to convert them to science (AND away from religion). True? Even more interestingly, since I claim that, to the 2nd religious person, science and religion are not in conflict, you'll have a very strange battle indeed (albeit one very familiar to readers on this forum).

I revise my earlier statement. Consider a world with 4 types of people made up of all 4 combos of religious/atheistic and fanatical/tolerant. The fanatical will try to convert the other 3 to their point of view, and some (as we well know from our modern society) will employ violence to accomplish this. While the tolerant will not, or may only go after the fanatic on the opposite side (perhaps being tolerant of the fanatic on their side).

OBLSteve, you seem to be in the atheistic/fanatic side of this as is beast. I think we're all agreed that the spread of science is good, but why actively try to take faith away from a religious/tolerant?

OBLSteve, you seem to be in the atheistic/fanatic side of this as is beast. I think we're all agreed that the spread of science is good, but why actively try to take faith away from a religious/tolerant?

I don't believe I did that at all. What people want to believe is their business, as long as they don't impose that on anybody else. The fact that I think their beliefs may be ridiculous does not take away from their right to believe them.

Quote from: oldsoldier on September 17, 2008, 07:31:19 AM

You seem to think the religious world and the scientific world can not co-exist. I disagree. I do agree that the vocal minority of the religious folks probably can not reconcile their faith with science, but I believe there a larger silent majority out there who can. 

I don't see the point of trying to reconcile religion with science. I've known people who have argued that God created the Big Bang and set up the rules so that life could evolve as it did, but no longer played an active role, and I always fail to see their logic. If God did such a thing, then:

a) There is absolutely no way we could prove his existence or non-existence.
b) He chose a very roundabout way of doing things, since you would think an omnipotent creator could just snap his metaphorical fingers and everything would be in place, rather than having to wait thirteen billion years for everything to unfold.

But most importantly:

c) It does not matter whether or not God exists in this scenario, for if we do not interact with him in any way, then what consequence could his existence or non-existence possibly have?

I agree with your points, so this isn't that kind of argument, but...

a) Wouldn't that be the agnostic view? 
b) What does time mean to a god that possibly exists outside of time? Perhaps the Big Bang and billions of years of evolution were no more than a snap of his fingers.
c) The only consequence I can imagine would be one that might occur in the (hypothetical) afterlife. Even if there is no interaction or interference from god in this life, one could argue that we have free will, and this life is a test.     

Quote from: beast on September 16, 2008, 08:51:24 PM

that he was born from a virgin

Virgin birth is posssible today with modern technology. Why wouldn't an all powerful all knowing being be able to do it a few millenia ago?

That still doesn't change the fact that the virgin birth myth is the oldest one in the book, and has figured in several religions and folk tales.

That still doesn't change the fact that the virgin birth myth is the oldest one in the book, and has figured in several religions and folk tales.

Provide sources for you claims.

You are the one claiming a virgin gave birth. The burden of proof is on you. also, I'm not really sure where to search, but I'll give it a go. Everyone probably knows that Ra, god of the sun in egyptian mythology, was supposedly born of a virgin. Also, I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virgin_births

It mentions, among others, Krishna, Romulus and Remus, and Horus.

Yeah, but most if not all of those were born of gods/goddesses.

I agree with your points, so this isn't that kind of argument, but...

a) Wouldn't that be the agnostic view? 
b) What does time mean to a god that possibly exists outside of time? Perhaps the Big Bang and billions of years of evolution were no more than a snap of his fingers.
c) The only consequence I can imagine would be one that might occur in the (hypothetical) afterlife. Even if there is no interaction or interference from god in this life, one could argue that we have free will, and this life is a test.     

a) Not necessarily. If one took a deistic approach - that is to say, one in which God created the Universe and then left it to its own devices - there is actually no way we could prove or disprove his existence, because to test for it would require some kind of interaction with God in the present.

b) Perhaps, but it still doesn't make any sense why he would choose to create the basic ingredients for life and allow it to evolve when he could just create the end product he was going for.

c) I agree there, but if there is no way of knowing in this life whether or not there is a God, or an afterlife, then how are we ever supposed to make an informed decision about the existence of such a being? Surely God, if he existed, would leave signs that he is there, rather than trying to confuse us with a history of fossils, cosmic radiation and other things that suggest a natural origin?

Yeah, but most if not all of those were born of gods/goddesses.

So was Jesus. He is the child of Mary and the holy spirit.

All that is on earth will pass away; And there will abide for ever only the Person of thy Lord, Master of Glory and Honour.

I ask Christians usually if Jesus was god and all, why he never said: "I am God, Worship Me" in the Bible there is no verse NOT A SINGLE VERSE that Jesus says: "I am God, Worship Me" unlike the Almighty God of Jews, Muslim, Hindus and other religions who believes in god.

Why Jesus never said something like that, that tell the humans his position clearly >>>

"Verily , I am ALLAH; there is no god but I, so worship ME alone and observe Prayer for my remembrance;"

Allah & Jesus on the day of judgment >>>

2Peter.1:[1] Symeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ:

the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ:
the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ:

God  + Saviour = 1 Jesus = 1 God
------------------------------------------------

1John.5[20]We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

He is the true God and eternal life.
He is the true God and eternal life.
------------------------------------------------

1John.3:[16] Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Who's love do hereby perceive? God.
Who laid down his life? Jesus.

Quote from: AbdulAziz on September 17, 2008, 03:51:50 AM

All that is on earth will pass away; And there will abide for ever only the Person of thy Lord, Master of Glory and Honour.

I ask Christians usually if Jesus was god and all, why he never said: "I am God, Worship Me" in the Bible there is no verse NOT A SINGLE VERSE that Jesus says: "I am God, Worship Me" unlike the Almighty God of Jews, Muslim, Hindus and other religions who believes in god.

Why Jesus never said something like that, that tell the humans his position clearly >>>

"Verily , I am ALLAH; there is no god but I, so worship ME alone and observe Prayer for my remembrance;"

Allah & Jesus on the day of judgment >>>

2Peter.1:[1] Symeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ:

the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ:
the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ:

God  + Saviour = 1 Jesus = 1 God
------------------------------------------------

1John.5[20]We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

He is the true God and eternal life.
He is the true God and eternal life.
------------------------------------------------

1John.3:[16] Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Who's love do hereby perceive? God.
Who laid down his life? Jesus.

I really thank you for your efforts but still I couldn't find the clear statement:

"I am God, Worship Me"

Here I quote what Jesus himself said according to the Bible

"My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

"My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

"…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

"…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]

"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]


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