Sun spots, and craters on the moon.

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2008, 08:53:27 AM »
No. It takes several coordinated observations to predict the path and occurrence of celestial phenomena.

Yes, it takes about a month's worth of observations for astronomers to model the orbit of a comet.

Apparently, the ancients with their superb observational ability, didn't recognize the periodicity of Halley's Comet until the late 1600s, which was the first comet that had a predicted return date.  Of course, his observations were off by 86 days due to the gravitational influence of Saturn and Jupiter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Halley)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 07:02:09 PM by Rig Navigator »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2008, 06:06:23 PM »
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So you agree that RE is better at predicting the path and reoccurrence of previously unknown celestial phenomena with fewer observations.  Glad to hear it.

RE also requires multiple observations to come up with a prediction. Astronomical Parallax, for example, requires two observers on far off places on earth.

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spacemanjones

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2008, 03:07:04 AM »
What about sunspots? what are they Tom? They can be seen with a telescope and a simple solar filter. they clearly rotate around the sun (27 days avg).

Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2008, 03:27:22 AM »
Tom Bishop i must commend you on your rather compelling thoughts about the crater impacts on the moon.

Too bad these RET can't keep an open mind on the subject and see the truth.

quite sad really.

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markjo

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2008, 05:20:10 AM »
Tom Bishop i must commend you on your rather compelling thoughts about the crater impacts on the moon.

Too bad these RET can't keep an open mind on the subject and see the truth.

quite sad really.

That's because we would have to open our minds so wide that our brains would fall out.
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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2008, 10:22:43 AM »
RE also requires multiple observations to come up with a prediction. Astronomical Parallax, for example, requires two observers on far off places on earth.

That is true.  Fortunately, we have the places called observatories that are spread out across the Earth allowing those observations to be made.

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trig

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2008, 11:15:54 AM »
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Now if only there were a way to model this odd behavior of the various celestial bodies.  Hmm...  I've got it, orbital mechanics.  Oh wait, that doesn't work in FET.

The ancients could model and predict the movement of celestial bodies just fine under Flat Earth cosmologies.
Nobody, ancient or modern, scientific or theocratic, open or close minded, has ever modeled the celestial bodies as if they were on a flat plane above Earth, with the exception of Rowbotham and his followers.

The models where the celestial bodies lie on one or more spherical surfaces existed since the most ancient cultures we know and are useful to predict some movements of celestial objects, with a precision acceptable to astronomers from the dark ages.

The predictions based on a spherical sky cannot, in any possible way, be translated to predictions based on a flat sky.

Tom Bishop, as always, intentionally misreads everything that passes in front of his eyes.

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mightyfletch

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2008, 07:36:10 AM »
I'm going to play devil's advocate about the sunspots.  Sunspots would be considered magnetic eruptions on the Sun like a pot of boiling water, which is not a sphere but has a flat surface.  And magnets don't have to be spheres either, they can be disks with diametric poles.
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2008, 07:47:06 AM »
FET (maybe):

- sunspots are smaller, unstable versions of the shadow object...?
- craters on the Moon caused by volcanic activity (?)
- sunspots caused by magnetic fields (internal or external) penetrating the Solar disc?

Nope I can't do that any more.  It's just too much effort [cue: that's what she said].
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mightyfletch

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2008, 08:23:36 AM »
FET (maybe):

- sunspots are smaller, unstable versions of the shadow object...?
- craters on the Moon caused by volcanic activity (?)
- sunspots caused by magnetic fields (internal or external) penetrating the Solar disc?

Nope I can't do that any more.  It's just too much effort [cue: that's what she said].
AHAHAHAHAA!
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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2008, 01:43:45 AM »
No explanation as to the observable rotation of the Sun about its axis based on the observation of sunspots?

in case people have forgotten the original post...

I'll admit this is a bad time for a sunspot thread, given that the sun has been sunspot free for a month and two days now, but some will crop up soon enough.

Sunspots on the sun make it's 25 day rotation period visibly apparent. In periods of heavy spotting, a full rotation of spots can be seen, even by amateurs with just box viewers and a lot of patience.

The continuity of the rotation shows that the spots are not just the random generation of directionally traveling phenomena on a flat emitter sun.

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Parsifal

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2008, 02:03:32 AM »
Sunspots are just debris from the Shadow Object that have been pulled away by tidal forces associated with its close orbit about the Sun. As they get dragged inward, conservation of angular momentum causes their orbital period to decrease, until they become close enough to the Sun that they appear to be part of it and are orbiting once every 25 days. They disappear when they finally make contact with the surface of the Sun.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2008, 03:28:02 AM »
Sunspots are just debris from the Shadow Object that have been pulled away by tidal forces associated with its close orbit about the Sun. As they get dragged inward, conservation of angular momentum causes their orbital period to decrease, until they become close enough to the Sun that they appear to be part of it and are orbiting once every 25 days. They disappear when they finally make contact with the surface of the Sun.

Well, at least it is an original explanation.  Still pulled out of your ass, but it is original.

Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2008, 08:13:21 AM »
Sunspots are just debris from the Shadow Object that have been pulled away by tidal forces associated with its close orbit about the Sun. As they get dragged inward, conservation of angular momentum causes their orbital period to decrease, until they become close enough to the Sun that they appear to be part of it and are orbiting once every 25 days. They disappear when they finally make contact with the surface of the Sun.

Just a few questions about your explanation...

So why can't the shadow object itself be viewed if the debris can be viewed? 

If the shadow object is significantly smaller than the Sun, and this significant amount of debris is being constantly pulled from its surface, why doesn't the shadowed area on the moon change?

What causes the debris to appear larger as it is pulled toward the Sun, away from the observer, when we should only be able appear smaller?

Why isn't the orbit of the debris in the orbital plane of the shadow object?  We can see sunspots across the entire surface of the Sun, and that debris always is moving parallel to the equator of the Sun.

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Parsifal

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2008, 10:03:33 AM »
So why can't the shadow object itself be viewed if the debris can be viewed? 

Its orbit is very slightly offset from the Sun's observed equator, and it is far away enough from the Sun that it never passes directly between us and the Sun.

If the shadow object is significantly smaller than the Sun, and this significant amount of debris is being constantly pulled from its surface, why doesn't the shadowed area on the moon change?

There is probably some form of regeneration mechanism. That, or it is changing very slightly over time. Can you prove that lunar eclipses were the same as they are now before writing was invented?

What causes the debris to appear larger as it is pulled toward the Sun, away from the observer, when we should only be able appear smaller?

The distance it is moving away from us is very small compared with its total distance away. When it is slightly closer to us, it is like a speck of dust floating in the air in front of a light bulb - you don't see it. As it moves closer to the Sun, and comes very close to the surface (at which point the solar wind causes it to hover for an extended period of time before getting sucked in by gravitation), it becomes visible as it perfectly eclipses that portion of the Sun.

Why isn't the orbit of the debris in the orbital plane of the shadow object?  We can see sunspots across the entire surface of the Sun, and that debris always is moving parallel to the equator of the Sun.

Electrically charged debris will be pulled to one side by the Sun's magnetic field.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2008, 11:55:01 PM »
Its orbit is very slightly offset from the Sun's observed equator, and it is far away enough from the Sun that it never passes directly between us and the Sun.

But can never be observed even when not in conjunction with the Sun?  Unless it is a perfect black body, which is unknown, it would reflect light and be visible.

How can the debris from the shadow body then move in an orbit that takes it in front of the face of the Sun?

Can you somehow diagram the orbit of the shadow body so that it can create the phases of the Moon, but still not be visible from the surface of the Earth?  If it exists, it should be simple to derive where the shadow body must be.


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There is probably some form of regeneration mechanism. That, or it is changing very slightly over time. Can you prove that lunar eclipses were the same as they are now before writing was invented?

Regeneration of the shadow body?  Can you explain how this might be accomplished?

Only basing our knowledge of written accounts leaves us enough time to have significantly eroded a body that is less than a mile in diameter (it has to be significantly smaller than the Sun or Moon).  This would have created noticeable changes in the shadow projected on the surface of the Moon during all phases, not just during lunar eclipses.


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The distance it is moving away from us is very small compared with its total distance away. When it is slightly closer to us, it is like a speck of dust floating in the air in front of a light bulb - you don't see it. As it moves closer to the Sun, and comes very close to the surface (at which point the solar wind causes it to hover for an extended period of time before getting sucked in by gravitation), it becomes visible as it perfectly eclipses that portion of the Sun.

So this hovering makes it move up and down relative to the surface of the Sun?


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Electrically charged debris will be pulled to one side by the Sun's magnetic field.

So there is variation in the electrical charge of the shadow body that would make its "debris" move north or south relative to the Sun?

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Parsifal

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2008, 12:03:21 AM »
But can never be observed even when not in conjunction with the Sun?  Unless it is a perfect black body, which is unknown, it would reflect light and be visible.

It is too dim compared with the Sun. Atmospheric scattering causes the Sun to always outshine it.

How can the debris from the shadow body then move in an orbit that takes it in front of the face of the Sun?

It becomes small enough to be affected by turbulence in the solar wind, which changes its orbital path.

Can you somehow diagram the orbit of the shadow body so that it can create the phases of the Moon, but still not be visible from the surface of the Earth?  If it exists, it should be simple to derive where the shadow body must be.

It doesn't cause the phases of the moon, only a lunar eclipse. This makes its orbit fairly difficult to predict.

Regeneration of the shadow body?  Can you explain how this might be accomplished?

Perhaps it is made of living material, or - more likely - it picks up matter from somewhere else, perhaps the solar wind.

Only basing our knowledge of written accounts leaves us enough time to have significantly eroded a body that is less than a mile in diameter (it has to be significantly smaller than the Sun or Moon).  This would have created noticeable changes in the shadow projected on the surface of the Moon during all phases, not just during lunar eclipses.

It can't be significantly smaller than the Sun and Moon, or it would never be able to cast a shadow on the full Moon.

So this hovering makes it move up and down relative to the surface of the Sun?

I'm afraid I don't follow you. Why would it do that?

So there is variation in the electrical charge of the shadow body that would make its "debris" move north or south relative to the Sun?

No, but as pieces break off they are struck by particles in the solar wind, which will give some of them a net charge.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 12:05:10 AM by Osama bin Laden »
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2008, 01:43:57 AM »
It doesn't cause the phases of the moon, only a lunar eclipse. This makes its orbit fairly difficult to predict.

So what causes the phases of the Moon?  Eclipses are easy to predict, so it should be easy to chart the course of the body that creates them.

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Perhaps it is made of living material, or - more likely - it picks up matter from somewhere else, perhaps the solar wind.

I would stay away from the living shadow body model if I were you.

If it is picking up material from the Sun, this would make it difficult to remain the black body required for no observation.

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It can't be significantly smaller than the Sun and Moon, or it would never be able to cast a shadow on the full Moon.

What about Tom's flashlight explanation (the shadow puppet on the wall one)?  If the shadow body was of significant size, say planetary, cometary or asteroid, it would be visible like those other bodies.


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I'm afraid I don't follow you. Why would it do that?

Sunspots grow larger and smaller variably.  In order for the changing size to be accounted for by perspective, that would mean the debris is moving up and down.


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No, but as pieces break off they are struck by particles in the solar wind, which will give some of them a net charge.

This doesn't explain the orbit of the debris.  The debris is in an orbit that is determined by the orbit of the shadow body.  The solar wind would energize it, but this would be a gradual process, and the path of the debris would be continually changing.  It wouldn't just "poof" into an orbit and then stay there.

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Parsifal

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2008, 02:34:12 AM »
So what causes the phases of the Moon?  Eclipses are easy to predict, so it should be easy to chart the course of the body that creates them.

The same thing as in RET.

I would stay away from the living shadow body model if I were you.

If it is picking up material from the Sun, this would make it difficult to remain the black body required for no observation.

I don't see why.

What about Tom's flashlight explanation (the shadow puppet on the wall one)?  If the shadow body was of significant size, say planetary, cometary or asteroid, it would be visible like those other bodies.

Except that it is too close to the Sun. It is not visible for the same reason that you can't see Mercury or Venus when they appear close to the Sun in the sky; trying would blind you.

Sunspots grow larger and smaller variably.  In order for the changing size to be accounted for by perspective, that would mean the debris is moving up and down.

Their temperature is highly unstable due to being so close to such a hot object. As heat begins to flow into and through them, they begin to expand and contract.

This doesn't explain the orbit of the debris.  The debris is in an orbit that is determined by the orbit of the shadow body.  The solar wind would energize it, but this would be a gradual process, and the path of the debris would be continually changing.  It wouldn't just "poof" into an orbit and then stay there.

Once they are charged, they will repel parts of the solar wind with similar charge and attract parts with opposite charge. The more extreme their charge, the longer it will take for the solar wind to neutralise them, and during this time they get accelerated up or down by the Sun's magnetic field. Once neutralised, they remain in a stable orbit. Thus the sunspots nearest the poles began with a large initial charge (relative to their mass), and those at the equator began with almost no initial charge. If their charge to mass ratio is too large, they will collide with the poles and never appear as sunspots.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2008, 03:26:04 AM »
The same thing as in RET.

The orbit of the Moon around a spherical Earth that changes the lit area of the Moon?  I highly doubt it.

I just don't see this diagram being applied to the FE model...




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I don't see why.

How would the normal matter ejected from the Sun allow the black body that is the shadow object to retain its black body characteristics?


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Except that it is too close to the Sun. It is not visible for the same reason that you can't see Mercury or Venus when they appear close to the Sun in the sky; trying would blind you.

Except during eclipses stars and other bodies near the Sun are visible.  We have been able to eliminate the glare of the Sun and make ground based observations of the solar atmosphere.  Surely that solar atmosphere (corona) is closer to the Sun, and more susceptible to glare, than an orbiting body would.


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Their temperature is highly unstable due to being so close to such a hot object. As heat begins to flow into and through them, they begin to expand and contract.

What would cause them to lose heat as they neared the heat source?  Why would it be unstable?  The Sun's energy is relatively constant.

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Once they are charged, they will repel parts of the solar wind with similar charge and attract parts with opposite charge. The more extreme their charge, the longer it will take for the solar wind to neutralise them, and during this time they get accelerated up or down by the Sun's magnetic field. Once neutralised, they remain in a stable orbit. Thus the sunspots nearest the poles began with a large initial charge (relative to their mass), and those at the equator began with almost no initial charge. If their charge to mass ratio is too large, they will collide with the poles and never appear as sunspots.

The bombardment from the solar wind, which is made up of particles with both charges (protons and electrons), would give equal charge.

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Parsifal

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Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2008, 03:34:51 AM »
The orbit of the Moon around a spherical Earth that changes the lit area of the Moon?  I highly doubt it.

I just don't see this diagram being applied to the FE model...



When the moon is near the Sun, the far side is lit. When it is far from the Sun, the near side is lit by sunlight that has made a U-turn.

How would the normal matter ejected from the Sun allow the black body that is the shadow object to retain its black body characteristics?

It doesn't need to have perfect black body characteristics.

Except during eclipses stars and other bodies near the Sun are visible.  We have been able to eliminate the glare of the Sun and make ground based observations of the solar atmosphere.  Surely that solar atmosphere (corona) is closer to the Sun, and more susceptible to glare, than an orbiting body would.

This is evidence that during a solar eclipse, the shadow object is behind the Sun.

What would cause them to lose heat as they neared the heat source?  Why would it be unstable?  The Sun's energy is relatively constant.

The Sun would heat them up and they would expand, and then the outer layers (which are made of the least dense materials) would start to vaporise. Then after vaporisation, they would expand again, and then heat up to the point that the outer layers would vaporise.

The bombardment from the solar wind, which is made up of particles with both charges (protons and electrons), would give equal charge.

On average. You would have some with a net positive charge and some with a net negative charge.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2008, 06:09:40 AM »
When the moon is near the Sun, the far side is lit. When it is far from the Sun, the near side is lit by sunlight that has made a U-turn.

But if all of this is happening overhead, we could only see half of the Moon lit at any one time.  In order for there to be a full Moon, the Sun would be between the observer and the Moon.


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It doesn't need to have perfect black body characteristics.

It would have to have better black body charecteristics

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This is evidence that during a solar eclipse, the shadow object is behind the Sun.

Hmm, I am going to have to see a diagram for how the shadow object can be "behind the Sun" as observed from the point of view of the observer in the area of totality, and not be visible through reflected light at other times.