Spotlight Sun and eclipses

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Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« on: September 18, 2008, 12:40:23 PM »
I was looking at a diagram of a solar eclipse that was posted on an another thread...



Looking at that diagram, I realized there is probably a big problem with the spotlight sun/bendy light model of FE.

Here is a diagram that shows bendy light and the spotlight sun model...



How can the Moon obstruct the light of the Sun, from a short distance, and still have light stream out to be visible as partial eclipses around the area of totality.


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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 12:44:52 PM »
Very problematic I'd say...   :)
Only a pinpoint on the Earth's surface experiences a total eclipse.
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Parsifal

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 03:08:07 PM »
The Moon is a bit smaller than the Sun, so that without light curving nothing more significant than an annular eclipse would ever be seen. The curvature of light actually helps to curve the rays of this annular eclipse inward, so that they meet above the surface of the Earth and we see a total eclipse on a very small part of the Earth's surface where the Moon is directly between us and the Sun.
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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 03:41:02 PM »
The Moon is a bit smaller than the Sun, so that without light curving nothing more significant than an annular eclipse would ever be seen. The curvature of light actually helps to curve the rays of this annular eclipse inward, so that they meet above the surface of the Earth and we see a total eclipse on a very small part of the Earth's surface where the Moon is directly between us and the Sun.

Can you please diagram this?

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MadDogX

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2008, 04:43:43 AM »
The Moon is a bit smaller than the Sun, so that without light curving nothing more significant than an annular eclipse would ever be seen. The curvature of light actually helps to curve the rays of this annular eclipse inward, so that they meet above the surface of the Earth and we see a total eclipse on a very small part of the Earth's surface where the Moon is directly between us and the Sun.

According to every diagram I've ever seen, FEs magical curved light rays always curve outwards, i.e. away from "straight down". If they were to curve inwards aswell, that would mean that objects in the distance should become vertically distorted, which is clearly not the case.
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Parsifal

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2008, 05:13:34 AM »
Ugh, I just realised my previous explanation wouldn't work. I still don't see what the problem is; it's not like it's difficult to visualise a solar eclipse in FET.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2008, 06:31:58 AM »
Ugh, I just realised my previous explanation wouldn't work. I still don't see what the problem is; it's not like it's difficult to visualise a solar eclipse in FET.

The problem with solar eclipses in FET is that degrees of eclipsing differ based on latitude, and other factors. FET with bendy light would predict that all locations receiving light during a solar eclipse would show similar degrees of eclipsing. Or not... I may be imagining it wrong.
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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2008, 07:37:24 AM »
Please forgive the crudity of my diagram...



The Moon placed a short distance below the Sun would create a cone of shadow that would expand out from that point.

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Parsifal

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2008, 07:44:25 AM »
Your mistake is modeling the Sun as a point source of light. The same thing would happen in RET if the Sun were infinitesimally small.
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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2008, 08:17:16 AM »
Your mistake is modeling the Sun as a point source of light. The same thing would happen in RET if the Sun were infinitesimally small.

I just reused a diagram showing the concept of "bendy light."

The idea still holds true.  If I take an object nearly the same size as my light source, it will block a significant amount of the light.  The spotlight characteristic of the FE Sun makes this effect worse, and then "bendy light" makes the effect spread out across FE.

Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2008, 01:17:05 PM »
But isn't it the light that bends not the shadow?

Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 01:20:30 PM »
But isn't it the light that bends not the shadow?

Yes the light is bent, but because the light is bending away, the edge of the shadow (lack of light) would also be bent.

Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2008, 01:31:25 PM »
I'm not trying to troll or appear thick (probably am doing) but can't this happen?


« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 12:37:34 AM by Universal Object of Attraction »

Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2008, 03:12:25 PM »
I'm not trying to troll or appear thick (probably am doing) but can't this happen?


By pancakeii at 2008-09-19


According to my understanding of the electromagnetic acceleration theory (EAT) is that can't happen.  Light is only bend up away from the Earth in a direction perpendicular to the surface.  If it didn't, you would get strange optical effects that aren't observed.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 05:58:38 PM »
Quote
According to my understanding of the electromagnetic acceleration theory (EAT) is that can't happen.  Light is only bend up away from the Earth in a direction perpendicular to the surface.  If it didn't, you would get strange optical effects that aren't observed.

If the moon is blocking the curved light rays, then they cannot curve into the surface of the earth. The diagram is accurate.

Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2008, 08:04:31 AM »
Ugh, I just realised my previous explanation wouldn't work. I still don't see what the problem is; it's not like it's difficult to visualise a solar eclipse in FET.

If it's not difficult, why can't you manage to do it? 
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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2008, 09:25:28 AM »
I'm not trying to troll or appear thick (probably am doing) but can't this happen?




No, because light rays to the left should bend more to the left, just as rays to the right bend rightwards.
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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2008, 07:55:13 AM »
If the moon is blocking the curved light rays, then they cannot curve into the surface of the earth. The diagram is accurate.

If the diagram is accurate, why is the zone of totality not as large as that model would suggest?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2008, 04:55:17 PM »
If the moon is blocking the curved light rays, then they cannot curve into the surface of the earth. The diagram is accurate.

If the diagram is accurate, why is the zone of totality not as large as that model would suggest?

The zone of totality would depend on how different of an altitude the moon is compared to the sun.

Also, the moon is passing in front of the sun at several hundred miles an hour during a Solar Eclipse. A dark block in a diagram taking up eight hours doesn't mean that solar eclipse would last eight hours. It just means that it is visible to eight timezones.

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Mattrix

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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2008, 05:31:17 PM »
You can perfectly account for the totality so long as two conditions are met:

1) the area of totality is smaller or equal area to the eclipsing object
2) the size/distance ratio is equal to that of the clearly flawed RET

This allows both the area of partial and of total eclipse to be consistent with observed results.
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Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2008, 07:59:59 AM »
The zone of totality would depend on how different of an altitude the moon is compared to the sun.

What is the altitude of the Moon in FET?


Quote
Also, the moon is passing in front of the sun at several hundred miles an hour during a Solar Eclipse.

But the Moon's speed relative to the Sun would be very slow, not several hundred miles per hour.  The Moon, using FE terminology, orbits every 23 hours and 10 minutes.  That doesn't make for much of a speed difference than the Sun that completes the same distance in 23 hours and 56 minutes.


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A dark block in a diagram taking up eight hours doesn't mean that solar eclipse would last eight hours. It just means that it is visible to eight timezones.

So the eclipse would be visible from 1/3 of the surface of the Earth, which is approx. 2/3 of the lit area of the Earth?  That doesn't match with the observed characteristics of eclipses where only a small portion of the Earth can view the eclipse.

Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2008, 01:45:03 AM »
The zone of totality would depend on how different of an altitude the moon is compared to the sun.

What is the altitude of the Moon in FET?


Quote
Also, the moon is passing in front of the sun at several hundred miles an hour during a Solar Eclipse.

But the Moon's speed relative to the Sun would be very slow, not several hundred miles per hour.  The Moon, using FE terminology, orbits every 23 hours and 10 minutes.  That doesn't make for much of a speed difference than the Sun that completes the same distance in 23 hours and 56 minutes.


Quote
A dark block in a diagram taking up eight hours doesn't mean that solar eclipse would last eight hours. It just means that it is visible to eight timezones.

So the eclipse would be visible from 1/3 of the surface of the Earth, which is approx. 2/3 of the lit area of the Earth?  That doesn't match with the observed characteristics of eclipses where only a small portion of the Earth can view the eclipse.

Answers to the questions?

Re: Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2008, 06:44:03 AM »
Bumped back to page one in anticipation of a FE answer.