Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III

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Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« on: September 06, 2008, 03:43:06 AM »
(Twice locked, here we go again!  Actually, the last locking was totally unjustified, just cowardice in the face of a superior argument.)

A wonderful opportunity for you Flat-Earth people!  Starting November 24th, Qantas will be making direct flights from Sydney to Buenos Aires.  This is a chance for you to prove once and for all that Earth is flat (or not).

Note the following things, which will be different depending on whether Earth is flat or round.

1.  The flight time.  The difference in distances is vast, depending on which Earth model is correct.

2.  The flight path.  If Earth is flat, I believe (looking at a Flat-Earth map) you'll fly over North America, parts of the Caribbean, and the northern part of South America.  If you don't, then Earth is probably round.

3.  The direction the plane flies in. Take a compass with you!  If you head north out of Sydney, then the direction appears to be south later in the flight, you can be sure Earth is flat.  If somewhat the opposite occurs, Earth is round.

4.  Note the relative position of the Sun to the plane during your flight.  It will be very different depending on which model is correct.


Answers to your inevitable objections:

1.  "We don't have the money for that."   Surely any organisation protecting such an important secret as yours could scrape together a mere few thousand dollars or so for somebody to take this flight.  It would be made back many times over with book sales after you prove you're right.  Call it an investment.

2.  "Jet streams can speed up the plane, some flights arrive in less than half the time because of wind (which will come from Tom)".  Uh-huh...would have to be a pretty strong wind, over 600mph, to cut the time of a flight in half.  Vector physics, anybody?  I don't care what your guy who claims to be a pilot says.  No commercial long-distance pilot could possibly do his job competently, if he believes in a flat Earth.  He wouldn't even know which direction to point the plane in.

3.  "The onus is on you to prove it."  Nope.  It's on you because you're the one proposing the theory which is not widely accepted.  Ours has been proven beyond reasonable doubt for several centuries, and the entire world is set-up on its basis.  You have the extraordinary claim, not us.  "The entire world is against us and all governments are conspiring" is an extremely extraordinary claim.  Besides, I wouldn't get any book sales from a proof of Earth being round.  Almost everybody knows that.

4.  "Why don't you do it?!"  Because you wouldn't believe anything I said.  You'd accuse me of being part of the conspiracy with NASA (FYI: I did once work on a project for NASA, in which I observed the curvature of Earth from a camera that I personally mounted on a rocket.  I suppose you think the lens was altered).  On other threads, you've demanded flight logs, etc. as proof, but we all know that you think any photos, video, documents are faked.  You people have even claimed that the windows on SpaceShip One were special windows that make Earth look curved!  It's one of the foundations of your theory, everything is faked, everyone is lying...  yet you continue to ask people for document or photographic proof.  YOU HAVE TO DO IT!  Otherwise, you won't ever believe it.  This is an extremely important point.  YOU MUST DO IT YOURSELVES!

5.  "Compasses don't work on a flight."  I've never tried, but I'm sure they'd work.  Either way, there are other things on the list above and it is not exhaustive.  Surely a super-intelligent organisation like yourselves can come up with more ways to prove a flat Earth during the flight.  You might even find a way to prove your bending light theory.


Any of you have the guts?  What amazing fame, riches and glory you could achieve by proving that you're right! Surely it would compensate you for the few thousand dollars that you spent on the flight and a compass.

Just to be clear, I don't think any of you would actually do it.  You entire lives are validated by the fact that you think you have this great secret.  What would happen if you were to stop believing in it?  You'll probably just challenge me to do it or to bring you proof, probably claiming you don't have the money.  I'm just interested in watching what excuses you come up with for not doing the experiment.  How creative are you?  Ta!     
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 03:44:42 AM by JeffC »

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spacemanjones

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2008, 03:49:38 AM »
Your problem is you are expecting them to say you are right... they wont. If you see your post get derailed or ignored just consider yourself victorious.

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 04:26:43 AM »
Well, you might be right.  While I am not expecting the hardcore flat-Earth'ers to concede, there are probably some who are on the fence or who have been thinking that they might not be correct.  This is for them.  I know it's possible for a person to change their worldview.  Look at all of the religious people who become atheists, and vice-versa.

I also enjoy taunting the others by dangling this in front of them.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 07:50:14 PM »
I am still refusing to let this thread to die. Make sure you save a copy of this somewhere Jeff incase they delete it.

I still can't believe the FErs won't even respond.

Another victory for RE!!
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2008, 12:40:50 AM »
Saved it.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Why haven't they responded?  Maybe because this newbie just came on the board and gave them an absolutely devastating way to prove round-Earth.  Only the ones who are actually searching for the truth, as opposed to defending flat-Earth to the death, will be intrigued by this proof method.  I hope some of those will wonder why no (or at least very, very few) pilots or passengers have cried conspiracy during the decades that we've had commercial flights in the southern hemisphere.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2008, 01:21:37 AM »
That flight between those two points doesn't prove anything about the shape of the earth. One would need to circumnavigate the entire lower Southern Hemisphere to disprove the Flat Earth model.

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2008, 01:51:40 AM »
Thanks for replying, Tom, even if it was completely unsatisfactory and without any justification.

Why doesn't the flight prove that Earth is not flat?  It should either agree with your model, with our model, or with neither.  Perhaps you can explain what prediction your flat-Earth theory would make about the flight time, or the countries you should fly over.  Oh, I forgot, you don't have any maps, so you have no idea what to expect.  But you wouldn't agree that the times under the two models would be different? (Barring of course, your hypothetical 600mph tailwinds which magically are tailwinds regardless of which direction you're taking the flight in)

Besides, there are still other elements of the proof which I've outlined should hold under round-Earth theory, none of which will make any sense under flat-Earth theory.  Wouldn't you agree that the ground track and the compass headings would be different?  Why exactly would the position of the Sun not eliminate the flat-Earth model?  Taken together, agreement with all points makes a pretty good case, beyond reasonable doubt.  Combine that with the photos, satellites that are visible throughout the sky, shadows of lunar eclipses, etc, etc, etc, and you've got one rock-solid, absolute proof.

By the way, what does it mean to circumnavigate the entire lower Southern Hemisphere?  Doesn't make sense at all in round-Earth.  Do you mean to sail around Antarctica?  (It's been done many times, look it up.) Sounds like it would require you to have a sailing yacht or something.  Of course, this is a much more difficult endeavor than merely taking a commercial airline flight.  I'm trying to make it easy on you.  Take the flight, Tom.  Take a compass, get a window seat, and make the measurements.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 02:09:19 AM by JeffC »

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2008, 02:00:52 AM »
And may I point out that by not having any maps or any other predictions from your theory which are falsifiable, you keep flat-Earth theory in an un-scientific place where in your head it can never be absolutely ruled out.  Our model makes lots of predictions, none of which fail.  The experiments which I have seen you talk about are designed so that they prove that flat-Earth is POSSIBLE, but fail to also ELIMINATE the accepted round-Earth model as an explanation.

If you were to make even one real prediction of flat-Earth which DISTINGUISHES it from round-Earth, and it were to be demonstrated to be wrong, then the whole theory would collapse, and your worldview would crumble.  Or you might cry conspiracy, I don't know.

The results of this experiment would ELIMINATE one of the two models from the realm of possibility.  Yet you seem unwilling to do it.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 02:10:39 AM by JeffC »

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Professor Stinkwrinkle

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2008, 02:11:02 AM »
Sounds like an interesting challenge, but none of the Flat earth believers will accept it, because Jeff, anything you see out those airplane windows can be explained away by claiming that the windows are merely displaying a pre-recorded optical illusion. It's also likely that they will claim the pilots (willingly or unwittingly) are given a course to fly that is circuitous to produce the appearance of a long, straight flight, but actually just avoids any visual of the Ice Wall.

Similarly, Round earth believers could trace and fly a route and use the traditional arguments to the contrary.

There isn't a single challenge that can be proffered that the Flat earth theorists cannot refute as part of the conspiracy, or that the Round earth folks would say is on account of lunacy. Even if Flat earthers were given a free ride to board a shuttle, and flown around the earth multiple times from high orbit, they would agree quickly that it was an elaborate illusion. I would predict they would say they were inside a room or a special airplane the whole time, and the windows and machines were just special TVs designed to give the illusion of space flight. Yes?

Every time flat-earthers hear "my relative worked at NASA", they wince.
Every time a round-earthers hear "but that fact isn't true because it's part of the conspiracy", they wince.

There is no argument that can be had here. There cannot be any progress/regress made. The two views are hopelessly irreconcilable, of course, and no one will ever be convinced that their side is wrong.

Also JeffC, for clarification they do have maps here. It's in the FAQ area somewhere, links to maps of Flat Earth.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 02:12:59 AM by Professor Stinkwrinkle »

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Moon squirter

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 12:13:42 PM »
Even if Flat earthers were given a free ride to board a shuttle, and flown around the earth multiple times from high orbit, they would agree quickly that it was an elaborate illusion. I would predict they would say they were inside a room or a special airplane the whole time, and the windows and machines were just special TVs designed to give the illusion of space flight. Yes?

My vote is that they would say "The bending of light, caused by the EA, is making the earth appear round from space".
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 02:57:23 PM »
Nice comments, Professor and Moon.  Funny stuff.

As I said in my introduction, I don't think the hardcore flat-Earth'ers would respond to my challenge, but I am interested in seeing what creative excuses they come up with.  It would be AWESOME if they did do the experiment, then we'd get to watch them explain their results, assuming that they didn't just lie about what those results were.

So far, the objections and tactics used on this topic by flat-Earth'ers are:

1.  You do it.  The burden of proof is on you.  (Cowards.)

2.  That won't prove anything.  (Right, because you refuse to make predictions, and would probably just find weird excuses like the pre-recorded video in the plane's windows.)

3.  Those maps are approximations.  (Where's a map we can trust?)

4.  Ignore the thread completely and go debate things which are much more ambiguous.  (This allows you to save face by not tackling the more devastating argument.)

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 03:48:02 PM »
Hmmmm.  I値l have a block of time next spring to do what I like.  My sister and I are planning to do some traveling so I値l throw this trip into the mix.  But I知 sure New Zealand would have to be substituted for Australia.  I値l take along a good compass (Argentinian) and keep a journal to share with the FES.

Thanks for dropping by and giving us your suggestion.  Visit again some time.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2008, 05:41:31 PM »
Hmmmm.  I値l have a block of time next spring to do what I like.  My sister and I are planning to do some traveling so I値l throw this trip into the mix.  But I知 sure New Zealand would have to be substituted for Australia.  I値l take along a good compass (Argentinian) and keep a journal to share with the FES.

Thanks for dropping by and giving us your suggestion.  Visit again some time.


FINALLY.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2008, 10:24:32 PM »
um... I haven't found anywhere where FE ppl have explain how ppl have walked across antartica if it is just a rim of ice around the ocean... or is that all made up as well?

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Jack

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2008, 10:29:48 PM »
You can't walk across the ice wall; you circle it. Those people who "walked across Antarctica" were lying about their journey. They only walked around the ice wall.

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dyno

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2008, 01:23:51 AM »
You can't walk across the ice wall; you circle it. Those people who "walked across Antarctica" were lying about their journey. They only walked around the ice wall.

And you say this based on ......your firm belief the icewall is impassable? Not any evidence at all that there actually is an icewall.

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Jack

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2008, 02:08:47 AM »
You can't pass the ice wall doesn't mean you can't walk on it. Get the difference?

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dyno

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2008, 05:28:29 AM »
You can't pass the ice wall doesn't mean you can't walk on it. Get the difference?
Oh I know the difference. What I said was, you base your statement on personal belief, not any form of evidence whatsoever.

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2008, 05:51:21 AM »
Hmmmm.  I値l have a block of time next spring to do what I like.  My sister and I are planning to do some traveling so I値l throw this trip into the mix.  But I知 sure New Zealand would have to be substituted for Australia.  I値l take along a good compass (Argentinian) and keep a journal to share with the FES.

Thanks for dropping by and giving us your suggestion.  Visit again some time.


Hey, cool!  If you're serious, thanks for giving it consideration.

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2008, 08:45:01 AM »
So they walked around the ice wall?  In the faq it says it is - something close to 78000 miles in circ.?  I guess they only walked half way or ~40000 miles.  Thats not so bad.  I wish I could walk 1000s of miles a day. 

Oh, and saying that someone lied about their journey is not a scientific argument. 

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Jack

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Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2008, 08:49:29 AM »
Oh, and saying that someone lied about their journey is not a scientific argument. 
I never said it was a scientific argument.

Re: Flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires, III
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2008, 10:35:27 AM »
I never said it was a scientific argument.

Just an argument that isn't effective.