Concerning navigation:

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longnight83

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Concerning navigation:
« on: August 31, 2008, 10:05:05 AM »
I've looked at your model for the shape and structure of the Earth. You set the center as the North Pole in your model, and distance expands outwards from there, based on the Earth being circular in shape. Looking at that model, if printed out on paper, one could use a simple drawing compass to make circles moving outward on that map, using the north pole as a central hub. One could then find definite landmarks along those circles, and using an aircraft, could move from landmark to landmark at a uniform rate of speed, and continue along that circle until one reaches their original point of departure.

Because we are using this model as a map, we can also say that the circles in that map are representative of a set distance. We can track that distance and determine the length of time it would take to reach each individual landmark at a given uniform rate of speed.

I will concede now that up until a certain point, the theory of the Earth being flat will hold out with this experimentation. However, after you reach the line that for those advocating a round Earth would represent the equatorial line, those measurements of distance are no longer accurate. The further those circles of measurement on the map of your model of a flat Earth go out, the more inaccurate your measurements of distance become, indicating that rather than growing as your flat model suggests, the distances are actually becoming shorter.

Again I state that this is easily proven again by charting specific landmarks within those circles on the map, using simple mathematics to determine the equivalent distances between those landmarks based on your map, and then traveling at a uniform rate of speed from landmark to landmark.

Based on this picture, set by one of your members to demonstrate the rotation of the sun and moon:



we can see that the distance from the tip of South America to the tip of Africa should be at least eight times the distance between the easternmost point of North America to the Westernmost point of Europe. If traveled at a uniform speed of 100mph, it should take eight times as long, approximately, to travel from New York City, United States of America, to Paris, France, than it should to travel from Tolhuin, Argentina, to Cape Town, South Africa.

It does not take eight times as long, however, when traveling at a uniform speed. The time of travel is approximately the same when traveled at the same speed by aircraft.

What is interesting in this observation, is that up until the equatorial line, your map for the Earth holds up almost perfectly to this simple test of distance and travel at uniform speeds, suggesting that your map is accurately portraying distance up until that point. However, past that point, your map loses all accuracy, failing to accurately determine distance or travel time between easily defined and easily tracked points and rates of speed.

Thus, I have two questions.

First, does this not suggest to you that the distance between these landmarks, easily placed and plotted on your model, are closer together, rather the distances suggested by your map and flat Earth model, in keeping with a world model of a globe rather than one of a relatively flat circle?

Second, if you do not agree that this disproves the Earth being flat, how do you justify, without relying on statements of conspiracy or philosophical statements about the perceptions of the senses, these glaring discrepancies with your map's distances between landmarks along these easily marked and measured circles and the actual distances traveled along these circles to reach these landmarks?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 10:36:48 AM »
That map is only an estimate.  The true flat earth map has not yet been...well...mapped out.

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the_sciencer

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 12:29:59 PM »
That map is only an estimate.  The true flat earth map has not yet been...well...mapped out.

After centuries, a FE map hasn't been created, whereas RE ones have multiple times accurately. Hmmmmmmm.
"Only two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the universe."

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Iruleuall4

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2008, 12:36:39 PM »
That map is only an estimate.  The true flat earth map has not yet been...well...mapped out.

After centuries, a FE map hasn't been created, whereas RE ones have multiple times accurately. Hmmmmmmm.
That's because it's hard to map something that doesn't exist.

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Sir_Drainsalot

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2008, 12:39:08 PM »
That map is only an estimate.  The true flat earth map has not yet been...well...mapped out.

After centuries, a FE map hasn't been created, whereas RE ones have multiple times accurately. Hmmmmmmm.
That's because it's hard to map something that doesn't exist.

The earth doesnt exist? Im fairly sure it does.

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Iruleuall4

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2008, 12:42:50 PM »
That map is only an estimate.  The true flat earth map has not yet been...well...mapped out.

After centuries, a FE map hasn't been created, whereas RE ones have multiple times accurately. Hmmmmmmm.
That's because it's hard to map something that doesn't exist.

The earth doesnt exist? Im fairly sure it does.
Sorry for the typo. I was actually saying the "flat earth" doesn't exist.

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longnight83

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2008, 09:06:46 PM »
That map is only an estimate.  The true flat earth map has not yet been...well...mapped out.

Granted that this map is only an estimate, it does not change the issue that, as a given, the advocates put the North Pole as being in the center of the map, and delineate the world as expanding out from that point. That this map is an estimate does not change the fact that a map can be made, and distances determined, based on this starting premise. For the world to be structured as the flat Earth theory demands, then the distances of those circles that can be drawn on that map using a simple compass would need to continue growing in length.

I again ask my question, how do you address the fact that after the circle that measures along where round Earth theorists would place the equator, the measurements of distance based on your theory increase, and the actual distances to travel when traversed at the same speed decrease?

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Parsifal

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2008, 09:16:59 PM »
I again ask my question, how do you address the fact that after the circle that measures along where round Earth theorists would place the equator, the measurements of distance based on your theory increase, and the actual distances to travel when traversed at the same speed decrease?

I assume that by "after" you mean "as you travel southwards from", and I shall ask you this: have you personally measured this change in distance around a line of latitude as you move south from the Equator?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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longnight83

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2008, 09:23:13 PM »
I again ask my question, how do you address the fact that after the circle that measures along where round Earth theorists would place the equator, the measurements of distance based on your theory increase, and the actual distances to travel when traversed at the same speed decrease?

I assume that by "after" you mean "as you travel southwards from", and I shall ask you this: have you personally measured this change in distance around a line of latitude as you move south from the Equator?

I'm sorry, but having read your posts previously on different topics, I am discounting you as valid for this debate. Please respect that your input is not wanted, nor will be acknowledged as having any validity in this, and move on to a different topic. I would like to debate with someone who will not rely on existential philosophy to answer my assertions.

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Parsifal

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 09:28:26 PM »
I'm sorry, but having read your posts previously on different topics, I am discounting you as valid for this debate. Please respect that your input is not wanted, nor will be acknowledged as having any validity in this, and move on to a different topic. I would like to debate with someone who will not rely on existential philosophy to answer my assertions.

Welcome to FES. We hope you enjoy your stay.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Atheist Antagonist

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 10:13:06 PM »
That map is only an estimate.  The true flat earth map has not yet been...well...mapped out.

As difficult as it is to make maps, I think if maps have been made of a round world, and the world is actually flat, how could maps of the flat world have not been created by now? Surely, at least one lone ship's crew must have sailed around the edges of the continents with intentions of mapping a flat Earth by now.

Also, what's with this "Global Moderator" rank? Not to argue against my own side, but isn't that term a bit biased?
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Fletch

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2008, 12:49:37 AM »
I again ask my question, how do you address the fact that after the circle that measures along where round Earth theorists would place the equator, the measurements of distance based on your theory increase, and the actual distances to travel when traversed at the same speed decrease?

I assume that by "after" you mean "as you travel southwards from", and I shall ask you this: have you personally measured this change in distance around a line of latitude as you move south from the Equator?
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longnight83

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2008, 06:31:48 AM »
I again ask my question, how do you address the fact that after the circle that measures along where round Earth theorists would place the equator, the measurements of distance based on your theory increase, and the actual distances to travel when traversed at the same speed decrease?

I assume that by "after" you mean "as you travel southwards from", and I shall ask you this: have you personally measured this change in distance around a line of latitude as you move south from the Equator?

Okay, we're repeating the existential question. I see where your argument is going to. You're going to put that, unless I have measured it myself, then it is clearly false information and my supposed facts are therefore in question. If I claim to have measured it myself, then I am clearly lying to you because I am myself part of this conspiracy. This allows you unilateral denial of my entire point, because either my facts are in question, or I myself am in question.

An excellent avoidance strategy, and as transparent as the window near which I sit.

Therefore, I refuse to acknowledge it beyond this point, because it neither intelligently refutes my point, nor adequately negates my argument.

My original questions were:

First, does this not suggest to you that the distance between these landmarks, easily placed and plotted on your model, are closer together, rather the distances suggested by your map and flat Earth model, in keeping with a world model of a globe rather than one of a relatively flat circle?

Second, if you do not agree that this disproves the Earth being flat, how do you justify, without relying on statements of conspiracy or philosophical statements about the perceptions of the senses, these glaring discrepancies with your map's distances between landmarks along these easily marked and measured circles and the actual distances traveled along these circles to reach these landmarks?

If you do not intend to answer, please at least show a bit of respect for my intelligence and for your own theory by not obviously ignoring my request.

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astronomy101

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2008, 07:00:45 AM »
I again ask my question, how do you address the fact that after the circle that measures along where round Earth theorists would place the equator, the measurements of distance based on your theory increase, and the actual distances to travel when traversed at the same speed decrease?

I assume that by "after" you mean "as you travel southwards from", and I shall ask you this: have you personally measured this change in distance around a line of latitude as you move south from the Equator?

Okay, we're repeating the existential question. I see where your argument is going to. You're going to put that, unless I have measured it myself, then it is clearly false information and my supposed facts are therefore in question. If I claim to have measured it myself, then I am clearly lying to you because I am myself part of this conspiracy. This allows you unilateral denial of my entire point, because either my facts are in question, or I myself am in question.

An excellent avoidance strategy, and as transparent as the window near which I sit.

Therefore, I refuse to acknowledge it beyond this point, because it neither intelligently refutes my point, nor adequately negates my argument.

My original questions were:

First, does this not suggest to you that the distance between these landmarks, easily placed and plotted on your model, are closer together, rather the distances suggested by your map and flat Earth model, in keeping with a world model of a globe rather than one of a relatively flat circle?

Second, if you do not agree that this disproves the Earth being flat, how do you justify, without relying on statements of conspiracy or philosophical statements about the perceptions of the senses, these glaring discrepancies with your map's distances between landmarks along these easily marked and measured circles and the actual distances traveled along these circles to reach these landmarks?

If you do not intend to answer, please at least show a bit of respect for my intelligence and for your own theory by not obviously ignoring my request.

Read the FAQ nub. Also, try Tom Bishop's work of literary art, My Travel's Across A Supposedly Round Earth: How I converted to the Flat Earth Theory, and Became Enlightened.
Imperious, choleric, irascible, extreme in everything, with a dissolute imagination the like of which has never been seen, atheistic to the point of fanaticism, there you have me in a nutshell.... Kill me again or take me as I am, for I shall not change.

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longnight83

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Re: Concerning navigation:
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2008, 03:58:35 PM »
I again ask my question, how do you address the fact that after the circle that measures along where round Earth theorists would place the equator, the measurements of distance based on your theory increase, and the actual distances to travel when traversed at the same speed decrease?

I assume that by "after" you mean "as you travel southwards from", and I shall ask you this: have you personally measured this change in distance around a line of latitude as you move south from the Equator?

Okay, we're repeating the existential question. I see where your argument is going to. You're going to put that, unless I have measured it myself, then it is clearly false information and my supposed facts are therefore in question. If I claim to have measured it myself, then I am clearly lying to you because I am myself part of this conspiracy. This allows you unilateral denial of my entire point, because either my facts are in question, or I myself am in question.

An excellent avoidance strategy, and as transparent as the window near which I sit.

Therefore, I refuse to acknowledge it beyond this point, because it neither intelligently refutes my point, nor adequately negates my argument.

My original questions were:

First, does this not suggest to you that the distance between these landmarks, easily placed and plotted on your model, are closer together, rather the distances suggested by your map and flat Earth model, in keeping with a world model of a globe rather than one of a relatively flat circle?

Second, if you do not agree that this disproves the Earth being flat, how do you justify, without relying on statements of conspiracy or philosophical statements about the perceptions of the senses, these glaring discrepancies with your map's distances between landmarks along these easily marked and measured circles and the actual distances traveled along these circles to reach these landmarks?

If you do not intend to answer, please at least show a bit of respect for my intelligence and for your own theory by not obviously ignoring my request.

Read the FAQ nub. Also, try Tom Bishop's work of literary art, My Travel's Across A Supposedly Round Earth: How I converted to the Flat Earth Theory, and Became Enlightened.

Actually, I did refer to the FAQ. While it did address some interesting points, it unfortunately does not change simple laws of velocity and distance. Everything else on your FAQ does explain a great many things in a manner that does satisfy the theory of the world being flat, but I did not find anything in it to address the issue of approximate distances traveled over time based on the Flat Earth map concept, and the actual times and distances traveled.

Let me try to explain this better, and please understand that I am not trying to be antagonistic; my replies back to that previous poster were because I could see where his line of logic was going, and it was exactly what I was trying to avoid in this thread.

Let us assume that the Earth is flat, and that the north pole represents the center of a circle. It is possible to draw, using aerial cartography if you distrust satellites, accurate maps expanding out from that central point, going outward until you reach the the ice wall, which we are also going to assume the existence of. I should stress that this has been done many times over the centuries by cartographers, and that our maps, while flat, have been accurate to within a given allowance of error. Going from this, and using that map, it is possible to chart the distance of a given "circle of latitude" which would represent a distance from the North Pole, and would correspond with an appropriate latitude measurement from the Round Earth model.

Using basic mathematics, we are able to determine the approximate diameter, and this also the approximate length of the circle, so that we can find out how much distance one must travel along that circle's perimeter, staying always the same distance from the north pole, and reach our original point of origin. We are then able to make the actual journey and compare our distance traveled and our rate of speed to the estimate to determine the accuracy of it. It is possible to make reference points and landmarks along the circumference of that circle to make sure we have not deviated from this.

The problem is that, this would put the distance of the tip of Africa to the tip of South America as being many times the distance of the westernmost part of Europe to the easternmost part of North America. However, the actual time traveled at a consistent speed from these two points suggests that these two paths are actually the same approximate distance from each other. The equator, however, matches your map of a flat earth quite well. The logical conclusion to this, is that after the equator, the circumference of these circles is growing less, not greater, which is impossible if the world is in fact flat. It is only possible if the world is a globe, at least to everything I know about mathematics.

As I said, my questions are simply how your theory deals with this discrepancy, and if it does not, how you rationalize your theory that the Earth is flat?

If there is something in the FAQ that I have somehow missed, I would also appreciate if someone could quote it for me. On your suggestion, I tried examining it again, and unfortunately I was unable to find your reference. I have also read that book, unless I am mistaken, and while it is very interesting, it also did not address the issue that I have brought up.

I believe my observation points out a fundamental flaw in the theory of the Earth being flat, and as such I wanted to know what your takes on it were, and if there was something you could add to this that could inform me if I have missed something obvious.