Why?

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zeroply

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Re: Why?
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2008, 10:35:13 AM »

But don't you see.  That's where religion has gotten such a bad rap.  I am telling you according to Christianity, and Im talking the kind that more and more churches are coming to see, is that those rules and rituals don't mean a fucking thing.  They are not what gets you to heaven.  Unless you can specifically tell me one thing that you can do that I can't and still not make it to heaven, then you fail.


You're picking and choosing which parts of Christianity you want to follow. Last time I checked, Jesus made it clear as part of the sermon on the Mount that you should not resist evil. Which is kind of a problem if you're in the military (I am too). You are putting your lifestyle first, and then choosing which parts of the Bible you can follow without it inconveniencing your lifestyle.

By that measure, I am just as Christian as you are. I am just more picky about which sections of the Bible to follow. I am also Hindu, Muslim, and a Scientologist.

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Parsifal

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Re: Why?
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2008, 10:36:00 AM »
This is known as Pascal's Wager and it is an extreme example of intellectual dishonesty and moral cowardice. I recommend that you do not use it in serious debate.

I once had some noob seriously try to convince me of God's existence by using Pascal's Wager.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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FETmeh

Re: Why?
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2008, 10:38:59 AM »
I'm confused, you have kids? Well i suppose there plently of russian brides out there....

USER RECEIVED 7-DAY BAN - FIRST POST WAS OBVIOUS TROLLING
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:41:07 AM by Osama bin Laden »

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2008, 10:42:53 AM »

So ethics have nothing to do with religion? Hedonism may reign so long as you "believe" in God?

What if I told you that's what I believe.

You know it, you hate it, quoted for reference: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

You're picking and choosing which parts of Christianity you want to follow. Last time I checked, Jesus made it clear as part of the sermon on the Mount that you should not resist evil. Which is kind of a problem if you're in the military (I am too). You are putting your lifestyle first, and then choosing which parts of the Bible you can follow without it inconveniencing your lifestyle.
By that measure, I am just as Christian as you are. I am just more picky about which sections of the Bible to follow. I am also Hindu, Muslim, and a Scientologist.

Look everyone, including God, knows that you cannot live a sinless so, with that being said which part of the bible can I not follow and be denied heaven.  Last I checked all sins were forgivable.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2008, 10:44:47 AM »
This is known as Pascal's Wager and it is an extreme example of intellectual dishonesty and moral cowardice. I recommend that you do not use it in serious debate.

I once had some noob seriously try to convince me of God's existence by using Pascal's Wager.

I apologize, its the first Ive heard of it.  I shall read up about it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:54:49 AM by WardoggKC130FE »

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zeroply

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Re: Why?
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2008, 10:54:11 AM »

You know it, you hate it, quoted for reference: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

Hardly straight forward to me. So God knew his son was going to be crucified and that it would lead to the creation of the church, and sent him down as part of that plan. Okay.

Well, how did Pilate have a choice as to whether to pardon Jesus or not? If God had already decided that Jesus was going to be crucified, then no one involved in the process had any free will. Pilate's actions were predetermined before he was born, since God had already laid out the master plan. So should he be blamed for playing the role thrust on him?

Any why is John 3:16 any more valid than say Romans 7:2-3? Do you have some secret key to which Bible passages are important and which aren't?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2008, 10:57:38 AM »

You know it, you hate it, quoted for reference: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

Hardly straight forward to me. So God knew his son was going to be crucified and that it would lead to the creation of the church, and sent him down as part of that plan. Okay.

Well, how did Pilate have a choice as to whether to pardon Jesus or not? If God had already decided that Jesus was going to be crucified, then no one involved in the process had any free will. Pilate's actions were predetermined before he was born, since God had already laid out the master plan. So should he be blamed for playing the role thrust on him?

Any why is John 3:16 any more valid than say Romans 7:2-3? Do you have some secret key to which Bible passages are important and which aren't?

So sticking with the current theme of the debate:

If a woman violates Romans 7:2 is she forever banned from going to heaven?

Re: Why?
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2008, 11:04:53 AM »

So ethics have nothing to do with religion? Hedonism may reign so long as you "believe" in God?

What if I told you that's what I believe.

You know it, you hate it, quoted for reference: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

Sounds pretty straight forward to me.
Just checking. God just seems a bit of a petty narcissist if all he wants people to do is acknowledge His existence.

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zeroply

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Re: Why?
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2008, 11:07:05 AM »

So sticking with the current theme of the debate:

If a woman violates Romans 7:2 is she forever banned from going to heaven?

I understand that according to Christianity you can be forgiven at any time. But you have to acknowledge your sins to ask for forgiveness. How is violation of Romans 7:2-3 any different from violation of the main commandments? I am not "permanently" banned from heaven even if I microwave my neighbor's kid.

My point is that you are selectively quoting portions of the Bible. If Romans 7:2-3 doesn't apply nowadays, then why should John 3:16?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2008, 11:21:43 AM »
Just checking. God just seems a bit of a petty narcissist if all he wants people to do is acknowledge His existence.

Call it what you want.

I understand that according to Christianity you can be forgiven at any time. But you have to acknowledge your sins to ask for forgiveness. How is violation of Romans 7:2-3 any different from violation of the main commandments? I am not "permanently" banned from heaven even if I microwave my neighbor's kid.

My point is that you are selectively quoting portions of the Bible. If Romans 7:2-3 doesn't apply nowadays, then why should John 3:16?

I am not selectively quoting.  Granted most of the old laws in the Old Testament are out of date due to Jesus had not died on the cross yet.  So there were different rules.  I would have to read more of Romans to get a context of the verse.  Usually when you get married do the vows not say To Honor and Obey.  Maybe that verse nowadays applies to both man and woman.  Like I said I would have to read more of it.

Hardly straight forward to me. So God knew his son was going to be crucified and that it would lead to the creation of the church, and sent him down as part of that plan. Okay.

Well, how did Pilate have a choice as to whether to pardon Jesus or not? If God had already decided that Jesus was going to be crucified, then no one involved in the process had any free will. Pilate's actions were predetermined before he was born, since God had already laid out the master plan. So should he be blamed for playing the role thrust on him?

Did Jesus not tell Judas he was going to betray him not once, but three times the night he was arrested.  And what did Judas say, No Lord, never.  TOLD him the future.  Does that mean he could have changed it if it wanted to?  I honestly don't know.   

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zeroply

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Re: Why?
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2008, 12:18:04 PM »
I am not selectively quoting.  Granted most of the old laws in the Old Testament are out of date due to Jesus had not died on the cross yet.  So there were different rules.  I would have to read more of Romans to get a context of the verse.  Usually when you get married do the vows not say To Honor and Obey.  Maybe that verse nowadays applies to both man and woman.  Like I said I would have to read more of it.

We can just restrict ourselves to New Testament in that case. And NT states very clearly not to resist evil. Straight out of the mouth of Jesus as part of the sermon on the Mount. How can you justify not following that? If you're fighting al-Qaeda, isn't that resisting evil?


Did Jesus not tell Judas he was going to betray him not once, but three times the night he was arrested.  And what did Judas say, No Lord, never.  TOLD him the future.  Does that mean he could have changed it if it wanted to?  I honestly don't know.   

Well, that's the problem. If Jesus already knew that Judas was going to be betray him, then how can you blame Judas for following his predetermined path? It would be worthwhile investigating it further, because Christianity is essentially meaningless if there is no true free choice.

Re: Why?
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2008, 12:21:30 PM »
Call it what you want. 
What if I chose to call it Islam; where God is Allah and Jesus is Muhammad? Would I still be accepted?

Re: Why?
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2008, 12:37:01 PM »
i don't think it was a case of judas and pilate must do what they did i just think it was in their nature.

their nature made judaswant to betray jesus and by roman law pilate basically had no choice. he tried to offer a way out but correct me if im wrong didnt the jewish people chose another prisoner to release? barabus maybe?

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zeroply

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Re: Why?
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2008, 12:45:44 PM »
i don't think it was a case of judas and pilate must do what they did i just think it was in their nature.

their nature made judaswant to betray jesus and by roman law pilate basically had no choice. he tried to offer a way out but correct me if im wrong didnt the jewish people chose another prisoner to release? barabus maybe?

Yes, but God created their nature. If they truly had a free choice over how to act, then there is no way God could have known the outcome in advance. He planned everything around the fact that Judas would betray Jesus, which means Judas' actions were set in stone from the moment his father conceived him, and even before.

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Dr. Hennessy

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Re: Why?
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2008, 01:09:45 PM »
Explain to me why I have to justify my beliefs to you? But for the sake of argument here goes.
Oh give me a break. You volunteered yourself for that question when you said, basically, that putting faith in your supreme deity is like putting faith in the screws in a chair. I'm not putting you on the rack, all I'm asking is that you defend your assertion. If you can't do that just say so, and stop playing games. We both know you're not the victim here, so you can cut out the act. All the red herrings and straw men in the world aren't going to change the fact that YOU CHOOSE TO POST HERE.

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I believe there is a God because, lets say the earth is 4.5 billion years old(which is the common secular view).  Your pitiful life is approx 80 years.  80 YEARS!  How small and insignificant is that in comparison to the whole.  Don't you think there is more to life than living 80 years and then becoming worm food?  And if that is it, it seems such a waste.  I think religion give people purpose, guidance, and comfort in knowing that this isn't it.  There is something out there bigger than you or me.  Something watching and helping us along the way.  That my life wasn't started by some accident in some small volcanic super heated pool billions of years ago, and that when it ends Im not just filling some space on some small meadow for no other reason than that's what your supposed to do when you die.  If you don't want to believe it that's fine.  No one says you have to(well at least not here).  It kills me to see people time and time again come on here and ridicule or tear down religions, when for the most part they are ignorant to what it is, means, and stands for.  Granted I also believe that there is only one true way to get to heaven when you die.  But I am not out there shouting all the muslims and buddhists are going to hell.  And that they are stupid or that atheists are stupid.  Which is what I have been called on this board.  That's fine though.  Persecution is part of it.  Has been since the beginning.  Your last question in your post has me confused.  What can I see that I am supposed to be putting my faith into?
What is this? All you've done is say the reasons why you want to believe in God. I asked you for the reasons you have to believe that there is a God holding your life together. In short, my question is, why do you believe in your God? What are your reasons? Even if they are trivial, I would like to hear them. Even if you have no actual evidence, surely you have some sort of spiritual answer or something, right?
And with a twist, as well.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2008, 01:15:07 PM »
Call it what you want. 
What if I chose to call it Islam; where God is Allah and Jesus is Muhammad? Would I still be accepted?

Was Muhammad crucified on a cross for the sins of man?  Thats a key part of it.  I suppose you can give Him whatever name you want as long as you believe in the core principal.

i don't think it was a case of judas and pilate must do what they did i just think it was in their nature.

their nature made judaswant to betray jesus and by roman law pilate basically had no choice. he tried to offer a way out but correct me if im wrong didnt the jewish people chose another prisoner to release? barabus maybe?

Yes, but God created their nature. If they truly had a free choice over how to act, then there is no way God could have known the outcome in advance. He planned everything around the fact that Judas would betray Jesus, which means Judas' actions were set in stone from the moment his father conceived him, and even before.

I think this is very important to talk about.  Did Judas betraying Jesus keep him out of heaven?  I don't believe so, but I need to go re-read the story again to find out.   He may have not been able to change his particular future but he also KNEW what he did was wrong and had to ask for forgiveness.  I think your right on some level about free will, because the most religious person that ever lived still sins.  You would figure if we truly did have free will then those that wished to would just stop sinning.  But we can't its in our nature.  Thats why Jesus came to save us.    

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2008, 01:18:30 PM »
Explain to me why I have to justify my beliefs to you? But for the sake of argument here goes.
Oh give me a break. You volunteered yourself for that question when you said, basically, that putting faith in your supreme deity is like putting faith in the screws in a chair. I'm not putting you on the rack, all I'm asking is that you defend your assertion. If you can't do that just say so, and stop playing games. We both know you're not the victim here, so you can cut out the act. All the red herrings and straw men in the world aren't going to change the fact that YOU CHOOSE TO POST HERE.

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I believe there is a God because, lets say the earth is 4.5 billion years old(which is the common secular view).  Your pitiful life is approx 80 years.  80 YEARS!  How small and insignificant is that in comparison to the whole.  Don't you think there is more to life than living 80 years and then becoming worm food?  And if that is it, it seems such a waste.  I think religion give people purpose, guidance, and comfort in knowing that this isn't it.  There is something out there bigger than you or me.  Something watching and helping us along the way.  That my life wasn't started by some accident in some small volcanic super heated pool billions of years ago, and that when it ends Im not just filling some space on some small meadow for no other reason than that's what your supposed to do when you die.  If you don't want to believe it that's fine.  No one says you have to(well at least not here).  It kills me to see people time and time again come on here and ridicule or tear down religions, when for the most part they are ignorant to what it is, means, and stands for.  Granted I also believe that there is only one true way to get to heaven when you die.  But I am not out there shouting all the muslims and buddhists are going to hell.  And that they are stupid or that atheists are stupid.  Which is what I have been called on this board.  That's fine though.  Persecution is part of it.  Has been since the beginning.  Your last question in your post has me confused.  What can I see that I am supposed to be putting my faith into?
What is this? All you've done is say the reasons why you want to believe in God. I asked you for the reasons you have to believe that there is a God holding your life together. In short, my question is, why do you believe in your God? What are your reasons? Even if they are trivial, I would like to hear them. Even if you have no actual evidence, surely you have some sort of spiritual answer or something, right?

I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.  No one said I was a victim of anything.  STFU and GTFO

Obviously I don't understand your question. I believed I answered it to the best of my ability.

Re: Why?
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2008, 01:19:15 PM »
Call it what you want. 
What if I chose to call it Islam; where God is Allah and Jesus is Muhammad? Would I still be accepted?

Was Muhammad crucified on a cross for the sins of man?  Thats a key part of it.  I suppose you can give Him whatever name you want as long as you believe in the core principal.  
That was my whole point; why is Christianity the truth and not Islam? Or Judaism? Hinduism? Shinto?

Re: Why?
« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2008, 01:53:25 PM »
i think judas was probably kept out ofheaven due to the whole suicide thing, mortal sin and all that

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Dr. Hennessy

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Re: Why?
« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2008, 01:54:10 PM »
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.  No one said I was a victim of anything.  STFU and GTFO
What is going on here? Are you deliberately being that obtuse? It's like you're just ignoring the things you dislike about my posts. And just so you know, you don't have to say that you're the victim to play the victim card.

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Obviously I don't understand your question. I believed I answered it to the best of my ability.
Ok, fine. Let's recap. I asked:

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

You said, basically:

WELL, THE UNIVERSE IS A PRETTY BIG PLACE.

As you will see in a second, this doesn't actually answer my question. Really, what you just did was to explain that you like the idea of a God because you feel small and unimportant, and you'll be damned if that's actually what you're gonna believe. After all, who wants to be small and unimportant? Unfortuantely, that means nothing with regards to my question. You never actually gave your reasons for believing what it is you believe. You could substitute literally any entity/set of beliefs in for what you say about your God. Observe:

I believe there is a giant penis buried in my back yard because, lets say the earth is 4.5 billion years old(which is the common secular view).  Your pitiful life is approx 80 years.  80 YEARS!  How small and insignificant is that in comparison to the whole.  Don't you think there is more to life than living 80 years and then becoming worm food? Why not believe in a giant eternal orgy, and a giant penis that watches over you forever? Life would seem like such a waste if there wasn't eternal sexual gratification at the end of it all. I think a giant penis buried in my back yard would give people purpose, guidance, and comfort in knowing that this isn't it.  There is something out there bigger than you or me.  Something watching and helping us along the way and promising us eternal sexual satisfaction.  That my life wasn't started by some accident in some small volcanic super heated pool billions of years ago, and that when it ends Im not just filling some space on some small meadow for no other reason than that's what your supposed to do when you die.  If you don't want to believe it that's fine.  No one says you have to(well at least not here).  It kills me to see people time and time again come on here and ridicule or tear down religions, when for the most part they are ignorant to what it is, means, and stands for.  Granted I also believe that there is only one true way to get to heaven when you die.  But I am not out there shouting all the muslims and buddhists are going to hell.  And that they are stupid or that atheists are stupid.  Which is what I have been called on this board.  That's fine though.  Persecution is part of it.  Has been since the beginning. [ED note: You are still playing the victim. Not everyone agrees, everyone gets called stupid at some point. Get over it.] Your last question in your post has me confused.  What can I see that I am supposed to be putting my faith into?
So tell me, why believe in your God and not the giant penis? Or any other religion? You have not given me any reasons you have for believing what you do. So I'll ask again: WHY, wardogg, do you believe what you do?
And with a twist, as well.

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cmdshft

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Re: Why?
« Reply #80 on: September 03, 2008, 01:57:13 PM »
Stop badgering him. Keep it up, and you'll end up with a one-way ticket to banville.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #81 on: September 03, 2008, 02:02:39 PM »
LOL @ Hara.


Henesseydude.  Ok let me get this straight.  You want to know why I believe in God instead of the big giant penis buried in my backyard?






The only answer I'm going to give to this, is because I choose to.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Why?
« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2008, 02:03:10 PM »
Why do you believe in God though? No giant penis in your garden or anywhere involved.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: Why?
« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2008, 02:03:53 PM »
So tell me, why believe in your God and not the giant penis?
I would call that a phallucy...

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Dr. Hennessy

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Re: Why?
« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2008, 02:04:11 PM »
Stop badgering him. Keep it up, and you'll end up with a one-way ticket to banville.
Are you kidding me? These are legitimate questions and I have gone out of my way to avoid personal insults. I have been as civil, if not moreso than he has.
And with a twist, as well.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Why?
« Reply #85 on: September 03, 2008, 02:05:26 PM »
You called his god a giant penis. I think he's a dick too (if the Bible is anything to go by) but I don't say it.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2008, 02:07:00 PM »
No he replaced God with a giant penis.  Interesting for sure.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Why?
« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2008, 02:08:22 PM »
I'd still like the answer.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: Why?
« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2008, 02:09:43 PM »
No he replaced God with a giant penis.  Interesting for sure.
It's also more practical. Now please answer the question. I'm still looking for a good segue to get back to Pascal's Wager...

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Dr. Hennessy

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Re: Why?
« Reply #89 on: September 03, 2008, 02:10:27 PM »
Henesseydude.  Ok let me get this straight.  You want to know why I believe in God instead of the big giant penis buried in my backyard?

[img ]http://adamncopeland.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/blank-picard_facepalm.jpg[/img]

The only answer I'm going to give to this, is because I choose to.
Humor me. To your mind, it is incredibly obvious that your god, and not a giant penis should be worshiped? Well, it's not obvious at all to me. Maybe I'm stupid, but if you truly believe that there is only one way to get into heaven, surely you have a good reason for believing in that particular model. Explain it to me as you would a child.



I should also add, to the general public, and mods in general, that I find it astonishing he can get away with this deliberately inflammatory posting strategy, and I am the one who is castigated.
And with a twist, as well.