2 cases for a round earth

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2 cases for a round earth
« on: August 30, 2008, 07:48:42 PM »
Ok, I'm going to say straight up that I believe that the earth is a sphere, or close to it anyways.  It is extremely unlikely anything you say will change that, and I doubt I will be able to change any believers.  That is not why I'm here.  I would like to present two cases for a round earth.  I read the Q&A and if these were included I missed them and I apologize.

Here we go:

1. Somewhere around 300 B.C. Aristotle noticed that the earth casts a round shadow on the moon.  I'm sure everyone is familiar with the phases of the moon, so how do you explain the round shadow? You can observe the same thing in you home  by casting a light on a sphere.

2. The way ships come into view.  This can not be said about modern ships, due to their design, but picture an old wooden ship, such that a merchant, explorer or pirate might have used hundreds of years ago.  As a ship returned to port, first its mast tops, then the sails, and finally its hull gradually came into view.  Early sailors reasoned that the earth was curved, otherwise wouldn't the entire ship come into view at the same time?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 07:55:58 PM »
Im going to handle your first question and ignore the second one.  First we need to clarify something.  What causes the moon phases in round earth theory?

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Dr Eon Phlatamus

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 08:05:02 PM »
I think I can handle the second question simply by stateing you said "that this cannont be said about modern ships."

And as far as Aristotle ... wasnt he considered a deviant in his day?
Thinking outside the box , Doesnt include Believing the earth is round.

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 08:14:44 PM »
I think I can handle the second question simply by stateing you said "that this cannont be said about modern ships."

And as far as Aristotle ... wasnt he considered a deviant in his day?
werent most people going against common beliefs considered deviants?
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 08:19:22 PM »
could an intelligent FE'er please reply to this?  I know there are plenty of you on this site.  And it doesn't apply to modern ships because they don't have masts.  You can still observe it to a certain degree but it is nowhere near as obvious.  And if you so thoroughly "handled" it, do explain why you see the mast of and old-fashioned ship before the hull?   

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 08:21:00 PM »
I feel so ignored.  :'(

Im going to handle your first question and ignore the second one.  First we need to clarify something.  What causes the moon phases in round earth theory?

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Dr Eon Phlatamus

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 08:27:57 PM »
I feel so ignored.  :'(

Im going to handle your first question and ignore the second one.  First we need to clarify something.  What causes the moon phases in round earth theory?
Im so sorry for getting in the way here Wardogg ... :-\
But you can obviously see they are just going for easy to pick and poke return. And your Awnser/question just gave them to much to think about.

But let me awnser the mast thingy quick ...
Its the surface tension ... Light ... having a limited penetrating power is not letting the lower part of the ship appear as soon as the higher part of the ship.
Thinking outside the box , Doesnt include Believing the earth is round.

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 08:35:21 PM »
Im going to handle your first question and ignore the second one.  First we need to clarify something.  What causes the moon phases in round earth theory?

The cause of the moon's phases is irrelevant.  I would just like you to explain what casts a round shadow over the moon.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 08:39:21 PM »
Well are we talking about the shadow or the moon phases here.  i am confused.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2008, 08:40:59 PM »
Im going to handle your first question and ignore the second one.  First we need to clarify something.  What causes the moon phases in round earth theory?

The cause of the moon's phases is irrelevant.  I would just like you to explain what casts a round shadow over the moon.

The shadow object.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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cmdshft

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2008, 08:41:44 PM »
Im going to handle your first question and ignore the second one.  First we need to clarify something.  What causes the moon phases in round earth theory?

The cause of the moon's phases is irrelevant.  I would just like you to explain what casts a round shadow over the moon.

The shadow object.

Yes! I was hoping this would come back to life!

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2008, 08:47:28 PM »
Wardogg, kindly gtfo your presence offends me.

Could you please elaborate on this shadow object?


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cmdshft

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2008, 08:48:27 PM »
Wardogg, kindly gtfo your presence offends me.

You're existence offends me. But I'm not complaining, am I?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2008, 08:49:59 PM »
Wardogg, kindly gtfo your presence offends me.

Could you please elaborate on this shadow object?



Like I give a fuck or something.

The shadow object is the object that causes a shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse in FET.  LURK AND FAQ MOAR

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2008, 09:24:14 PM »
The shadow object is a huge disk ridden by a thousand wizards! It blots out the sun or the moon at it's wizardy whim.  Speak ill of it and it will blot you out too!
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Video proof that the Earth is flat!

Run run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me cos I'm in the lollipop forest and you can't get there!

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2008, 09:25:53 PM »
The shadow object is a huge disk ridden by a thousand wizards! It blots out the sun or the moon at it's wizardy whim.  Speak ill of it and it will blot you out too!

If you don't stop spamming the debate forums with this crap I am going to ban you.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2008, 04:18:54 AM »
Given the sheer veracity that I see FE'ers demanding proof of evidence for everything RE related, the validity that the shadow object is given in FET is truly ridiculous. Hell Roundy, you should be congratulating lulz, since he put forth more of a theory than I've see posted in my time here. I mean, seriously, can you prove it isn't wizards?

I mean the only other theory I've heard is that it's a big object that behaves just like a shadow (IE, you can see through it, and it corresponds to the patterns of eclipsing and occulting of light sources), with no chartable flight path, and that just shows up when it's convenient. If it's your assertion that it's not a standard shadow plain and simple, and you can't meet the burden of proving otherwise, you are as much in violation of the forum rules as he is. It may as well be wizards.

It is my assertion though, given that in RE terms I can explain it's every occurrence, that it is a shadow. It's a shadow the FE theorists before you couldn't explain, so they made up a mysterious object for. And in the 400-500 years since, FE theorists have done nothing to advance it or validity it in any way. If you seriously want me and other RE'ers to buy the "mysterious object" bit, you're going to have to give us something we can regard as even the flimsiest type of proof.

And jkj890, until a solid majority of FE'er can say definitively where they stand on the sinking ship argument, all similar arguments are doomed to go the way of threads like Dyno's, where the burden of proof was met with evidence, but the many sectarian FE views fit that proof to their own ideals, or reject it outright, unless they can use it to their advantage at some future point.

For us and our RE dynamics, you have 1 set and uniform way of viewing phenomena that the methods for testing are well established. For FE dynamics, you'll get anything from Zetetic or conspiracist theories, to Biblical or Qur'an diatribes, to multifarious in-house theorems of equally questionable reasoning. Any one of which they will secularly or unitarialy hold as true, regardless of whether they have bothered to prove, or have ever even gotten around to devising a method to definitively prove the validity of.

It's like herding cats... If you enjoy that kind of thing then by all means, enjoy. If not, pick through their threads and FAQS, and look for their weak points. There are a lot of them, so there's no loss here...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 04:37:58 AM by AmatureAstronomer »
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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2008, 04:28:09 AM »
The shadow object is a huge disk ridden by a thousand wizards! It blots out the sun or the moon at it's wizardy whim.  Speak ill of it and it will blot you out too!

If you don't stop spamming the debate forums with this crap I am going to ban you.

Spamming debate forums with crap?  Oh are you going to ban Narcberry and Bishop too?  What about robosteve?  he spams any arguement he's losing with ridiculous semantics. 

The fact is, there is more evidence for wizards than for flat earth. 
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Video proof that the Earth is flat!

Run run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me cos I'm in the lollipop forest and you can't get there!

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2008, 04:51:26 AM »
I still would like to know why astronomers can't follow the shadow object after an eclipse is over.  It's following a known path at a known speed when it crosses the lunar surface, which is a predictable path.  Therefore it should be able to be tracked/observed.

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Parsifal

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2008, 04:55:44 AM »
I still would like to know why astronomers can't follow the shadow object after an eclipse is over.  It's following a known path at a known speed when it crosses the lunar surface, which is a predictable path.  Therefore it should be able to be tracked/observed.

I'm interested in the answer to this, too. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Shadow Object.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2008, 05:15:04 AM »
Quote
I still would like to know why astronomers can't follow the shadow object after an eclipse is over.  It's following a known path at a known speed when it crosses the lunar surface, which is a predictable path.  Therefore it should be able to be tracked/observed.

The Shadow Object does not pass between the moon and observer, but between the sun and moon. The black thing we see manifesting on the moon's surface is its shadow.

The Shadow Object is a satellite of the sun. This satellite is called the Shadow Object. Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane, making eclipses possible only when the three bodies (Sun, Object, and Moon) are aligned and when the moon is crossing the sun's orbital plane (at a point called the node). Within a given year, considering the orbitals of these celestial bodies, a maximum of three lunar eclipses can occur. Despite the fact that there are more solar than lunar eclipses each year, over time many more lunar eclipses are seen at any single location on earth than solar eclipses. This occurs because a lunar eclipse can be seen from the entire half of the earth beneath the moon at that time, while a solar eclipse is visible only along a narrow path on the earth's surface.

Total lunar eclipses come in clusters. There can be two or three during a period of a year or a year and a half, followed by a lull of two or three years before another round begins. When you add partial eclipses there can be three in a calendar year and again, it's quite possible to have none at all.

The shadow object is never seen because it orbits the sun. As the sun's powerful vertical rays hit the atmosphere they will scatter and blot out nearly every single star and celestial body in the sky. We are never given a glimpse of the celestial bodies which appear near the sun during the day - they are completely washed out by the sun's light.

Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham estimates the Shadow Object to be a few miles in diameter. Since it is somewhat close to the sun the manifestation of its penumbra upon the moon appears as a magnified projection. This is similar to how during a shadow puppet show your hand's shadow can make a large magnified projection upon your bedroom wall as you move it closer to the flashlight.

Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham has provided equations for finding the time, magnitude, and duration of a Lunar Eclipse at the end of Chapter 11 of Earth Not a Globe.

It's entirely possible that the Shadow Object is a known celestial body which orbits the sun; but more study would be needed to track the positions of Mercury, Venus and the sun's asteroid satellites during a Lunar Eclipse.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 05:16:56 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2008, 05:19:04 AM »
Umm...Lunar eclipses happen at night, therefore you should be able to track it after it passes the moon surface.  Unless it all of a sudden hits the gas and goes behind the sun.  And during daylight hours when the sun and moon are visible, you should be able to see it.


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Parsifal

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2008, 06:50:03 AM »
Umm...Lunar eclipses happen at night, therefore you should be able to track it after it passes the moon surface.  Unless it all of a sudden hits the gas and goes behind the sun.  And during daylight hours when the sun and moon are visible, you should be able to see it.

Did you even read Tom's post?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2008, 06:52:14 AM »
Umm...Lunar eclipses happen at night, therefore you should be able to track it after it passes the moon surface.  Unless it all of a sudden hits the gas and goes behind the sun.  And during daylight hours when the sun and moon are visible, you should be able to see it.

Quote
The Shadow Object does not pass between the moon and observer, but between the sun and moon. The black thing we see manifesting on the moon's surface is its shadow.

The Shadow Object is a satellite of the sun.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2008, 06:53:48 AM »
I have forgotten.  How do moon phases work in FET?

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2008, 07:05:23 AM »
Fine, it's a satellite of the sun.  (which by the way indicates a sherical sun, as opposed to a spotlight. And is counter to the argument that satellites don't exist.)...you should still be able to produce a mathematical model predicting its orbital plane and speed, thereby rendering it visible to astronomers once the shadow has passed.  I would think that the angle of the Dark object in relation to the sun or moon could be deduced by mathematics and direct observation of light and angles.

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Dr Eon Phlatamus

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2008, 07:37:44 AM »
  I would think that the angle of the Dark object in relation to the sun or moon could be deduced by mathematics and direct observation of light and angles.
Ofcourse this is possible , But you are making assumtions that the shadow object,Sun,moon, and earth all act the same.As if Dogs,cats,and mice have the same habbits. So you would start off with a very flawed base to begin your math.
Read the FAQ on the sun and moon difference and how it relates to the earth with reflective light. Then you must make an assumption on the shadow object , that it does not behave as these three others do ...  in that it reflects no light .... Hence its called the shadow object.

And celestial non man made sattelites were never part of FE that im aware of.
Thinking outside the box , Doesnt include Believing the earth is round.

Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2008, 12:10:26 AM »
Fine, it's a satellite of the sun.  (which by the way indicates a sherical sun, as opposed to a spotlight. And is counter to the argument that satellites don't exist.)...you should still be able to produce a mathematical model predicting its orbital plane and speed, thereby rendering it visible to astronomers once the shadow has passed.  I would think that the angle of the Dark object in relation to the sun or moon could be deduced by mathematics and direct observation of light and angles.
Satelite of the Sun. Which you can't see at night. So you can't track it as it throws a shadow on to the moon.
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

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dyno

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Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2008, 12:24:14 AM »
Solar satellite?

Problem.
With an angled orbit the UA will affect the SO more than the Sun and Moon, ejecting it into space.

You say the orbit is known. You state the angle relative to the Solar plane. You know it's period. Please describe the orbital path. You should be able to give a mathmatical model describing it's path.

With solar filters, Mercury can be seen transiting the Sun. Why not the SO?


Re: 2 cases for a round earth
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2008, 01:37:17 AM »
good point dyno, seen these solar transit pics myself on another forum