Here's a fun thought.

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narcberry

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Here's a fun thought.
« on: August 30, 2008, 04:43:01 PM »
Assuming a universe that will collapse in on itself, and repeat a big bang and collapse over and over...

All matter exists as a singularity. There is no way to differentiate between matter, as all matter is identical in form, energy and position.

When the big bang happened, there must have been a mathematical construct to define which bit of matter blew in what direction. Whether it was a perfectly even distribution, or perhaps something reminiscent of fractals.

This leads us to a couple fun thoughts:
1. Did I live my life, exactly as I am now, an infinite amount of times in the past, and doomed to live it an infinite amount of times in the future?
2. If we could see the whole of the universe, is there a pattern? Ie, are there several other mes with identical lives in far distant galaxies that are identical to our own?
3. Is my existence a mathematical tautology, and completely intrinsic to the universe's existence?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 05:40:06 PM by narcberry »

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 05:18:26 PM »
Assuming a universe that will collapse in on itself, and repeat a big bang and collapse over and over...

All matter exists as a singularity. There is no way to differentiate between matter, as all matter is identical in form, energy and position.

When the big bang happened, there must have been a mathematical construct to define which bit of matter blew in what direction. Whether it was a perfectly even distribution, or perhaps something reminiscent of fractals.

This leads us to a couple fun thoughts:
1. Did I live my life, exactly as I am now, an infinite amount of times in the past, and doomed to live it an infinite amount of times in the future?
2. If we could see the whole of the universe, is there a pattern? Ie, are there several other mes with identical lives in far distant galaxies that are identical to our own?

I've been wondering the same thing. I guess it's...possible. Maybe I was a chicken in my "past life" if their's a such thing. Maybe after I die I'll be a zortog on planet Bortin for all I know.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 05:21:22 PM »
No, you haven't been wondering the same thing.

I'm supposing that you will be Round000, exactly as you are now, when the universe lives again, and again, and again. That all the decisions you've made and will make, have been done previously, by you, an infinite amount of times prior. And that possibly, exact copies of both you and our galaxy exist elsewhere in the universe consequent to the universe exploding in a mathematically explainable pattern.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 05:23:00 PM »
No, you haven't been wondering the same thing.

I'm supposing that you will be Round000, exactly as you are now, when the universe lives again, and again, and again. That all the decisions you've made and will make, have been done previously, by you, an infinite amount of times prior. And that possibly, exact copies of both you and our galaxy exist elsewhere in the universe consequent to the universe exploding in a mathematically explainable pattern.

What do you think you can read my mind? I've been wondering this for quite some time.

As for the rest of that, I don't believe any of it.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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foufcfk

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 05:25:03 PM »
thats deep man   but in that would mean we all have had this conversation an infinite number of times already

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 05:26:37 PM »
No wonder Im so tired.

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 05:28:05 PM »
thats deep man   but in that would mean we all have had this conversation an infinite number of times already

Yes. And will continue to do so every few trillion years.

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foufcfk

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 05:33:42 PM »
god this realy sucks

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cmdshft

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 05:43:35 PM »
god this realy sucks

He can't help you.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2008, 05:44:42 PM »
Yes he can.

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foufcfk

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2008, 05:45:21 PM »
then who will?

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cmdshft

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2008, 05:47:17 PM »
Yes he can.

Prove it.

I'm gonna start praying to Joe Pesci like George Carlin did. At least I know I have a better chance of Joe helping me out.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2008, 05:48:49 PM »
Yes he can.

Prove it.

I'm gonna start praying to Joe Pesci like George Carlin did. At least I know I have a better chance of Joe helping me out.

Didn't work out so good for Carlin.  How old was he?  71?  Not even to the "normal" life expectancy.

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2008, 05:49:43 PM »
At least I know I have a better chance of Joe helping me out.

You can't know that.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to pray to God if you are trying to understand if he exists and is able to help you?

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Parsifal

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2008, 06:35:24 PM »
I've thought about this before, though in the context of an indefinitely expanding Universe. Because the limit of the probability of any possible event happening at least once in n situations as n approaches infinity is 1, then in an infinitely expanding Universe your life will repeat itself identically an infinite number of times in the far future. There will also be many similar, but non-identical, versions of your life. The same could be said about infinite space; if the Universe is infinitely large, there are an infinite number of "you"s all doing exactly the same thing at exactly the same time, but one second from now most of them will be doing something else, although there will still be an infinite number doing the same thing as you.

Of course, this brings into question what constitutes consciousness. When we die, does our consciousness automatically come back when we are born again? Or is it lost forever, and even though the actions that we carry out next time are the same, it is a different conscious entity performing them?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2008, 06:53:58 PM »
My point is what explains how matter explodes in a Big Bang?

I'm asserting that the distribution of matter is identical. So I'm not talking about the possibility of identical events, I'm asserting the certainty of identical events with each cycle. And possibly the certainty of multiple identical events elsewhere in the universe, as if the there is a pattern to how matter was distributed.

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Parsifal

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2008, 07:05:46 PM »
My point is what explains how matter explodes in a Big Bang?

I'm asserting that the distribution of matter is identical. So I'm not talking about the possibility of identical events, I'm asserting the certainty of identical events with each cycle. And possibly the certainty of multiple identical events elsewhere in the universe, as if the there is a pattern to how matter was distributed.

I know. I'm just explaining a similar thought process I had, in that it would have a similar effect.

Also, I don't think an identical distribution of matter would have identical results due to quantum uncertainties. Combine all those uncertainties over the billions of years it takes for life to arise, and I'd say that quantum effects would dominate, particularly as life has to start on the molecular level.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2008, 07:25:49 PM »
You're assuming quantum uncertainties are actual uncertainties.

I find it much more probable that their uncertain behavior is due to our uncertain understanding of underlying physics.

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Parsifal

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2008, 07:28:44 PM »
You're assuming quantum uncertainties are actual uncertainties.

I find it much more probable that their uncertain behavior is due to our uncertain understanding of underlying physics.

If you are correct, then your suggestion is certainly plausible. It would happen in an indefinitely expanding Universe too, for reasons I have already described. It still brings into question what constitutes consciousness.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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zeroply

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 07:53:47 PM »
When the big bang happened, there must have been a mathematical construct to define which bit of matter blew in what direction. Whether it was a perfectly even distribution, or perhaps something reminiscent of fractals.

Apologies if my physics is out of date, but isn't strict determinism out of fashion right now? Why can't it be more like a dog that throws up, eats the vomit, and repeats the cycle many times? The pattern of vomit would be unique in each iteration.

Pardon the analogy - I just watched the Republican convention and it's the first thing that came to mind.

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Dr. Hennessy

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 08:09:01 PM »
Apologies if my physics is out of date, but isn't strict determinism out of fashion right now?
Is it? But anyway, impacts of determinism would still apply on that level. As I understand it.
And with a twist, as well.

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Raist

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 08:19:50 PM »
Assuming a universe that will collapse in on itself, and repeat a big bang and collapse over and over...

All matter exists as a singularity. There is no way to differentiate between matter, as all matter is identical in form, energy and position.

When the big bang happened, there must have been a mathematical construct to define which bit of matter blew in what direction. Whether it was a perfectly even distribution, or perhaps something reminiscent of fractals.

This leads us to a couple fun thoughts:
1. Did I live my life, exactly as I am now, an infinite amount of times in the past, and doomed to live it an infinite amount of times in the future?
2. If we could see the whole of the universe, is there a pattern? Ie, are there several other mes with identical lives in far distant galaxies that are identical to our own?
3. Is my existence a mathematical tautology, and completely intrinsic to the universe's existence?
quantum theory says no. Electrons randomly move around. This means chemical bonds that may have happened may happen elsewhere. This means that you probably did not exist before. Just that randomness alone would change everything.

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 04:46:46 PM »
Where you see randomness, I see ignorance.
There was a time when clouds moved randomly...

Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 04:48:05 PM »
This isn't a fun thought at all. :(

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2008, 04:51:50 PM »
Sorry Oscar.

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Raist

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2008, 05:20:16 PM »
Where you see randomness, I see ignorance.
There was a time when clouds moved randomly...
Random, perhaps not. But the same electron will not follow the same course twice very often. So the odds are very small?

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2008, 05:26:00 PM »
The chance of seeing two perfectly identical clouds is nearly 0.
That doesn't mean that, armed with all information, you could not predict what shape a cloud will take.

Your point is moot.

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Raist

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2008, 06:14:42 PM »
The chance of seeing two perfectly identical clouds is nearly 0.
That doesn't mean that, armed with all information, you could not predict what shape a cloud will take.

Your point is moot.
Actually my point would be valid then. Prediction does not mean random duplication. Also predicting the electron cloud is just predicting the most probable place an electron would be, not it's exact location. There is a chance it is not even close to the cloud. There is a small chance that the electron will appear half way across the universe.

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narcberry

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2008, 06:27:03 PM »
You still don't see what I'm saying.

It only looks like a probability because we can statistically analyze data and assign a probability. We don't go further and predict anything, because we have no good theories. Once we've learned more, and have good predictive theories, then we understand the mathematical certainty of it.

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Raist

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Re: Here's a fun thought.
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 08:23:20 PM »
You still don't see what I'm saying.

It only looks like a probability because we can statistically analyze data and assign a probability. We don't go further and predict anything, because we have no good theories. Once we've learned more, and have good predictive theories, then we understand the mathematical certainty of it.
Again, being able to predict the location of the electron, would not mean that it will take the same path twice. You also said we can tell where the electron is. Could you show me the math used for this?