The Earth is not flat...

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The Earth is not flat...
« on: August 27, 2008, 11:17:15 PM »
Despite how funny I think this really is, I will allow you "Flat Earth" believer to enlighten me...

I am studying astronomy, I have a passion for the heavens above us, and make continuous trips to local observatories including the one my University owns.

I have seen hundred of stars, countless constellations, and have witnessed first hand the magic of the creation of a planet. What I am seeing through the high powered observatories are the stages of planet development, it is not in real time, but in fact by the time the light travels into my lenses, it has already occurred billions of years ago.

Through my observatory trips and looking through my own personal telescope, I have not yet seen one flat planet or star. So is earth the "only" planet in the whole universe to just somehow be flat?

Now in order to defend this, I'm guessing you are saying every telescope manufactured is a fake? The $1,000,000+ observatories were all built, owned, and operated by conspiring government authorities, or the every planet and star I am looking at is flat as well, But every single on of them, all trillions of them are angled so perfectly to make them appear as a globe. Or out of the trillions of planets and star, we just happened to be THE ONLY ONE that is flat. Wow huh? Talk about odds.

Another factor:
If you say gravity doesn't exist, and we are being held down by the sheer acceleration of the earth traveling upwards, how do you explain our existent of clouds? Surely with the high traveling speed, theres is so much air pressure going against us, there must be some proof of the colliding air pressure exerting our clouds to the sides; or even towards the ground?

It seems all of the members here "just believe' in this theory. Have any one of you, including you founder, actually gone to these "Ice walls" to photograph them? The best way to test how strong your theory is is to try to debunk it. Has anyone of you, including your founder, tried to circumnavigate the globe to prove once and for all? Any hard evidence at all? Every time we have any video, photographic, or first account evidence, it is labeled as a hoax or a conspiracy or a fake. Easy to say coming from you guys when you have no hard evidence at all...

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2008, 11:38:47 PM »
Welcome to our forums.  It's refreshing to see an open mind, whether you end up a believer or not.

To your first point, we do not regard the earth to be a planet.  It is an entirely different kind of body from those we see above us and call planets.

To your second point, the upward acceleration of the earth actually has exactly the same effect as your gravity does.  This observation is based on the equivalence principle.  So I see no reason to think that clouds couldn't exist on an accelerating earth if they can exist on an earth with gravity.

About the ice wall, my opinion is that this is simply what you would call the coast of Antarctica, but encircling the earth and holding in the oceans as fits flat earth geography.  Many people have seen it and confirmed its existence, thus I don't feel its necessary to visit it myself.  Unfortunately, circumnavigation would not serve as disproof of FET because it's perfectly possible on a flat earth.

I don't automatically discount first-hand evidence when it's posted; I usually try to find a reasonable way of explaining whatever phenomenon is being discussed within a FE framework.  This is a perfectly natural part of scientific inquiry.  The only exception is when someone posts something that is obviously false, such as that they've seen the curvature of the earth from a commercial airliner.  I suggest you read Earth Not a Globe if you wish to seek out evidence for a flat earth; much of it is found there.  You can google it and find the full test available online, for free.  Yes, FE believers feel there must be a conspiracy, but only because of the rigid evidence available that the earth is flat.

Again, thank you for your interest in our forums!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 11:40:27 PM by Roundy the Truthinessist »
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2008, 11:58:28 PM »
Quote
Through my observatory trips and looking through my own personal telescope, I have not yet seen one flat planet or star. So is earth the "only" planet in the whole universe to just somehow be flat?

The earth is not a celestial body. The earth is a near-infinite plane which bisects the universe. The earth is the only known material world and the only environment known to support life.

Quote
If you say gravity doesn't exist, and we are being held down by the sheer acceleration of the earth traveling upwards, how do you explain our existent of clouds? Surely with the high traveling speed, theres is so much air pressure going against us, there must be some proof of the colliding air pressure exerting our clouds to the sides; or even towards the ground?

Clouds stay aloft through buoyancy.  ::)

(The clouds are also accelerating towards the earth at 9.8 m/s2 in the RE model as well)

Quote
It seems all of the members here "just believe' in this theory. Have any one of you, including you founder, actually gone to these "Ice walls" to photograph them?

Plenty of people have been to the Antarctic rim which surrounds our local area.

Quote
The best way to test how strong your theory is is to try to debunk it. Has anyone of you, including your founder, tried to circumnavigate the globe to prove once and for all?

Circumnavigation is possible in the Flat Earth model. It's laid out like the United Nations emblem. North is Hubwards, South is Rimwards, East is Turnwise, and West is Widdershins.

Quote
Any hard evidence at all? Every time we have any video, photographic, or first account evidence, it is labeled as a hoax or a conspiracy or a fake. Easy to say coming from you guys when you have no hard evidence at all...

Just look out your window. The earth is flat by pretense.

The burden is on you is to convince us that it's actually a globe.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 12:26:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 01:08:45 AM »
About the ice wall, my opinion is that this is simply what you would call the coast of Antarctica, but encircling the earth and holding in the oceans as fits flat earth geography.  Many people have seen it and confirmed its existence, thus I don't feel its necessary to visit it myself.  Unfortunately, circumnavigation would not serve as disproof of FET because it's perfectly possible on a flat earth.

A circumnavigation of the Antarctic coast would serve as evidence against the FE model of the Earth because of the differences in distance that would be present between the two models.

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Moon squirter

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 01:10:11 AM »
Clouds stay aloft through buoyancy.  ::)

Are you saying that the water droplets in clouds less dense than air?  I doubt that very much.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 01:26:21 AM »
Clouds stay aloft through buoyancy.  ::)

Are you saying that the water droplets in clouds less dense than air?


There aren't any water drops in clouds, at least ones of any size to be recognizable as water drops. Clouds contain very very tiny water droplets condensed on what is called condensation nuclei, small particles typically 0.0002 millimeters in size. Thus clouds are collection of such microscopic droplets with negligible weight. It's only when the droplets coalesce to critical radius and above do the particles make a net fall downwards as rain. Moreover the clouds will be slightly warmer than the surrounding air and as long as they are warmer, they float in the air due to buoyancy.

Anyones who has graduated elementary school grade knows that vapor is lighter than water.

Quote
I doubt that very much.

Read more.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 01:32:04 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Moon squirter

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 01:40:21 AM »
There aren't any water drops in clouds....

And then:

Clouds contain very very tiny water droplets

Clouds do contain water droplets, you see.


I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 07:16:53 AM »
Quote

The burden is on you is to convince us that it's actually a globe.


Actually Tom, you're wrong. RErs know the Earth is round, it's just common sense. It's the burden on FErs to brainwash us to think it's flat.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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Parsifal

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 07:26:43 AM »
Quote

The burden is on you is to convince us that it's actually a globe.


Actually Tom, you're wrong. RErs know the Earth is round, it's just common sense. It's the burden on FErs to brainwash us to think it's flat.

Quotation fail.

Anyway, please explain why it is "common sense" for the Earth to be round.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 07:31:40 AM »
Quote

The burden is on you is to convince us that it's actually a globe.


Actually Tom, you're wrong. RErs know the Earth is round, it's just common sense. It's the burden on FErs to brainwash us to think it's flat.

Quotation fail.

Anyway, please explain why it is "common sense" for the Earth to be round.

It did the quotation by itself.   ::) No seriously it's doing that by itself and it won't let me fix it.

Earth's roundness is common sense in many ways, but one of the easiest ways to prove it are the pictures of Earth from space.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 07:39:24 AM »
Thats evidence not proof.  See my sig.

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Jack

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 07:43:44 AM »
Earth's roundness is common sense in many ways, but one of the easiest ways to prove it are the pictures of Earth from space.
I consider that as spamming. We've been through this before and this post is highly unneeded or unnecessary in this thread.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 07:55:46 AM »
Quote
There aren't any water drops in clouds....

And then:

Clouds do contain water droplets, you see.

Water vapor and Water drops are not in the same state of matter.

/fail

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Moon squirter

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2008, 08:09:42 AM »
Quote
There aren't any water drops in clouds....

And then:

Clouds do contain water droplets, you see.

Water vapor and Water drops are not in the same state of matter.

/fail


I think you are confusing water vapour with condensed water droplets.  Water vapour is transparent gas, with no droplets, even very small ones.  The clouds you see are condensed water droplets.  They cannot be staying up through "buoyancy" because water is hundreds of times denser than air.

/Fail
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2008, 08:13:01 AM »
Quote
I think you are confusing water vapour with condensed water droplets.  Water vapour is transparent gas, with no droplets, even very small ones.  The clouds you see are condensed water droplets.  They cannot be staying up through "buoyancy" because water is hundreds of times denser than air.

/Fail

Nope. Clouds are made of cooled water vapor which condenses as micro-droplets which themselves are not denser than water in a liquid state. The size of these loose clumps of particles are so small that they are practically air particles. Clouds can stay aloft because they are generally warmer than the surrounding air, and as any child knows, warm air rises through buoyancy.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 08:22:15 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Moon squirter

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2008, 08:29:42 AM »
Quote
I think you are confusing water vapour with condensed water droplets.  Water vapour is transparent gas, with no droplets, even very small ones.  The clouds you see are condensed water droplets.  They cannot be staying up through "buoyancy" because water is hundreds of times denser than air.

/Fail

Nope. Clouds are made of cooled water vapor which condenses as micro-droplets which themselves are not denser than water in a liquid state. The size of these loose clumps of particles are so small that they are practically air particles. Clouds can stay aloft because they are generally warmer than the surrounding air, and as any child knows, warm air rises through buoyancy.

I'm not saying that micro-droplets are "denser than water in a liquid state".  I'm saying that the clouds are *not* held aloft through buoyancy.  How can they when water is 100s of times denser than air?
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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markjo

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2008, 10:11:39 AM »
Quote
I think you are confusing water vapour with condensed water droplets.  Water vapour is transparent gas, with no droplets, even very small ones.  The clouds you see are condensed water droplets.  They cannot be staying up through "buoyancy" because water is hundreds of times denser than air.

/Fail

Nope. Clouds are made of cooled water vapor which condenses as micro-droplets which themselves are not denser than water in a liquid state. The size of these loose clumps of particles are so small that they are practically air particles. Clouds can stay aloft because they are generally warmer than the surrounding air, and as any child knows, warm air rises through buoyancy.

Quote from: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/droplet
droplet
Main Entry:    drop·let
Pronunciation:    \ˈdräp-lət\
Function:    noun
Date:    1607

: a tiny drop (as of a liquid)

Tom, how is a droplet of water any different from a drop of water in any way other than size?
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2008, 11:25:44 AM »
Quote
I'm not saying that micro-droplets are "denser than water in a liquid state".  I'm saying that the clouds are *not* held aloft through buoyancy.  How can they when water is 100s of times denser than air?

When water is in a gaseous state it can be lighter than air. Haven't you ever wondered why water vapor rises upwards?

The micro-droplets are so tiny in clouds that the state is closer to gaseous than liquid. It's only when the water molecules clump into a critical mass that the state is closer to a liquid and they become heavier than air and fall downwards.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.

Quote
Tom, how is a droplet of water any different from a drop of water in any way other than size?

The more water molecules bonded together, the heavier the structure is. The more broken down water is, the lighter it is.

You may as well be asking how individual wood molecules in smoke can rise upwards when "wood is heavier than air".
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 11:31:09 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2008, 11:33:24 AM »
It seems all of the members here "just believe' in this theory. Have any one of you, including you founder, actually gone to these "Ice walls" to photograph them? The best way to test how strong your theory is is to try to debunk it. Has anyone of you, including your founder, tried to circumnavigate the globe to prove once and for all? Any hard evidence at all? Every time we have any video, photographic, or first account evidence, it is labeled as a hoax or a conspiracy or a fake. Easy to say coming from you guys when you have no hard evidence at all...

I offered this thread to spark some ideas into how it can be shown one way or another. The experiment offered is simple enough and certain to show if the earth is either flat or round. However I'm not sure that the flat earth society currently conducts any experiments at all to show support for their case. If so I'm not sure where they can be found.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2008, 11:35:19 AM »
I have circumnavigated the earth.  What does it prove?

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2008, 02:01:05 AM »
I consider that as spamming. We've been through this before and this post is highly unneeded or unnecessary in this thread.

I don't agree.  If someone asks "Anyway, please explain why it is "common sense" for the Earth to be round," than that is a viable response to the question.  Regardless of whether you think it is a good answer, it is still answer to the question that was asked.

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Moon squirter

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2008, 02:13:13 AM »
When water is in a gaseous state it can be lighter than air. Haven't you ever wondered why water vapor rises upwards?

No I've never seen water vapor rise upwards, and neither have you:  It's a colourless transparent gas.

The micro-droplets are so tiny in clouds that the state is closer to gaseous than liquid.

It's either gas or liquid I think.  I'm not aware of the a state of matter called "closer to gaseous than liquid".

The more water molecules bonded together, the heavier the structure is. The more broken down water is, the lighter it is.

But no matter how small or large the droplet is, it's still 100s of times heavier that air per unit volume".   How can it have buoyancy?
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2008, 02:47:05 AM »
So what keeps clouds up in RET?
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2008, 02:50:08 AM »
A cloud's weight is spread out over a very large area. Plus, the cloud's droplets and crystals are very small--about one micron, or one-hundred-thousandth of an inch across. A cloud's individual particles are so small, in fact, that warm air rising from the earth's surface is able to keep them floating in the air. It's similar to how dust motes swirl in a shaft of sunlight. Although the bits of dust are affected by gravity, (RET), even the gentlest air currents are enough to keep them dancing around in the air.

But clouds don't stay up in the air forever, of course. When the warm air keeping clouds afloat cools, its water vapor condenses and adds to the cloud's droplets. At a certain point the droplets become heavy enough to overwhelm the force of the rising air, and all that water falls to the ground. That's what we call rain!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 02:52:52 AM by Stabler12 »

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2008, 03:00:16 AM »
And why would that be different in FET?
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If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2008, 03:09:01 AM »
Because gravity doesn't exist in FET. as I see it, FET would say that clouds accelerate at the same speed as the Earth.  What, then would cause rain to fall?  Meaning, at what point does the earth catch up to the clouds, making rain or fog?.  Sorry if that's not clear enough, I have been awake for about 21 hours now.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 03:16:25 AM by Stabler12 »

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2008, 03:27:45 AM »
The accelerating Earth in FE does the same job as gravity in RE. The effects are identical. How does a kite fly when gravity is constantly trying to pull it down to the earth? By the creation of a lower air pressure above the "sail" of the kite which keeps it aloft. Why does water vapour rise when gravity is present? Because it is lighter than the air which is also constantly drawn to the earths surface and so it finds its equilibrium which is above the air closest to the planets surface.

The effects are identical in FE.
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

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Parsifal

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2008, 04:15:11 AM »
Earth's roundness is common sense in many ways, but one of the easiest ways to prove it are the pictures of Earth from space.

Read the FAQ. Now, why is it common sense for the Earth to be round?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2008, 04:17:37 AM »
 Aristotle says:  "The sphericity of the earth is proved by the evidence of ... lunar eclipses.  For whereas in the monthly phases of the moon the segments are of all sorts--straight, gibbous [convex], crescent--in eclipses the dividing line is always rounded. Consequently, if the eclipse is due to the interposition of the earth, the rounded line results from its spherical shape" Of course a frisbee, properly angled, would make a round shadow too. But if the frisbee rotated while the eclipse was in progress, the curvature of its shadow would change. The earth's does not.

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Parsifal

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Re: The Earth is not flat...
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2008, 04:21:23 AM »
Aristotle says:  "The sphericity of the earth is proved by the evidence of ... lunar eclipses.  For whereas in the monthly phases of the moon the segments are of all sorts--straight, gibbous [convex], crescent--in eclipses the dividing line is always rounded. Consequently, if the eclipse is due to the interposition of the earth, the rounded line results from its spherical shape" Of course a frisbee, properly angled, would make a round shadow too. But if the frisbee rotated while the eclipse was in progress, the curvature of its shadow would change. The earth's does not.

In FET, a lunar eclipse is not caused by the Earth's shadow falling on the moon.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.