Mythbusters did the moon landing

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narcberry

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #210 on: August 31, 2008, 10:23:40 PM »

Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #211 on: August 31, 2008, 10:24:32 PM »


That's horrible.

Seriously dude, I'm a jackass but that's just....

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dyno

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #212 on: August 31, 2008, 10:37:57 PM »
What scientific body do RE's classify as reputable and trustworthy?

Can you name any or is the entire planet in on it?

It seems the more you refute the more people aren't just ignorant, but in on the conspiracy. Basically every physicist, news reporter, member of government, military, airline, sealiners, freight company, technology company etc have to be in on it to varying degrees.

How do you still see it as plausible?

Let me ask another question.
Do you FEs feel special that you alone know the "truth"? I suspect as much. This sounds like a personal attack and I guess it can't be classed as anything else.
Do any of you have real jobs?
University education?
Religious beliefs?(this just helps me understand your mindset)
Mental problems?
Family members with mental problems?

Trying not to offend too much here.

Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #213 on: August 31, 2008, 10:47:12 PM »
What scientific body do RE's classify as reputable and trustworthy?

Can you name any or is the entire planet in on it?

It seems the more you refute the more people aren't just ignorant, but in on the conspiracy. Basically every physicist, news reporter, member of government, military, airline, sealiners, freight company, technology company etc have to be in on it to varying degrees.

How do you still see it as plausible?

Let me ask another question.
Do you FEs feel special that you alone know the "truth"? I suspect as much. This sounds like a personal attack and I guess it can't be classed as anything else.
Do any of you have real jobs?
University education?
Religious beliefs?(this just helps me understand your mindset)
Mental problems?
Family members with mental problems?

Trying not to offend too much here.

The only ones they trust are members of their organization and some fucktard dead guy.

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dyno

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #214 on: August 31, 2008, 10:53:50 PM »
Outright hostility won't help you generate meaningful responses and they are hard enough to find already.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #215 on: August 31, 2008, 10:55:12 PM »
dyno is right.  Do you have anything new or interesting or meaningful to say, or are you just here to troll?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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FETftw

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #216 on: August 31, 2008, 10:55:40 PM »
dyno is right.  Do you have anything new or interesting or meaningful to say, or are you just here to troll?
hes trawlin.
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

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Stabler12

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #217 on: September 01, 2008, 12:39:40 AM »
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But Tom...as I asked in an earlier post, why call it a safety violation on what you claim to be a conspritorial program?  If he wanted to expose fraud, why didn't he claim such?

Baron's job as a Safety Inspector was to report safety violations. That's all he was there for. If he sees that the Saturn V was being made out of balsa wood and aluminum sheeting he'd put that in his report as a safety violation. If he sees that the equipment is not being put into rigorous testing he'd put that into his report as a safety violation. His job is to watch NASA build its equipment and report to congress whether they were taking the necessary steps to build their craft to aerospace standards.

NASA could not do a good enough job of convincing the congressional Safety Inspector that they were genuine and so they "took care of him" before he could publish his 500 page report detailing exactly what was going on at NASA.

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If he was trying to draw attention to the conspiracy, why not go all the way, instead of half assing it?

Baron was clearly trying to reveal NASA for who they really were. But unfortunately NASA got to him before he could do irreversible damage to their integrity.




Why wasn't he done away with before his Congressional appearance?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #218 on: September 01, 2008, 02:21:05 AM »
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Why wasn't he done away with before his Congressional appearance?

NASA either didn't take notice of him before his Congressional appearance or underestimated him to be much of a threat. Here's Baron's testimony to Congress:

http://www.clavius.org/baron-test.html

I could only find his testimony digitized on Clavius' website (which is government run) so I'm not sure how legit or unedited it is. However, at face value reading through the Congressional testimony it's clear that Mr. Baron was being interrogated by the officials and the conversation was deliberately steered to be as vague as possible. In a number of instances during the testimony Baron is only able to say that he has hundreds of complaints against NASA and contractor practices before he is cut off and the subject is diverted by something lame like "oh, but you misspelled this here in one of your papers.. why should we take your word as a safety inspector with any value?"

R. E. Reyes, an engineer in KSC's Preflight Operations Branch, said Baron filed so many negative charges that, had KSC heeded them all, NASA would not have had a man on the moon until the year 2069.

Here's a picture of our Thomas Baron:



Baron testified before congress that the Apollo program was such disarray the United States would never make it to the moon. His claim and his opinions made him the target. 

"Thomas was a real fear that the program could be stopped in its tracks" - Julian Scheer, Former NASA Spokesman

Then exactly one week after he testified Baron's car was stocked by a train. Baron, his wife and his step daughter were killed instantly. Baron's 500 page paper detailing the specific deficiencies of the Apollo program was never found.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 02:49:09 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Stabler12

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #219 on: September 01, 2008, 02:25:02 AM »
Got it...at least we use the same source.  It would be nice if there were more sites that were less biased about his plight.

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dyno

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #220 on: September 01, 2008, 03:27:02 AM »
Or it was never written

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Stabler12

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #221 on: September 01, 2008, 03:37:58 AM »
So I presume that the smaller report was just an outline?

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mayhem

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #222 on: September 01, 2008, 07:22:22 PM »
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Are now or were in the mid 60's?  Can you list some other proposals that might require more than 8000 pages from the same era?  Out of curiosity, what was the original Manhattan Project Proposal?  I can't find it, but it was a $2 billion project in the 1940's and involved over 100,000 employees...certainly comparable.

All of the facilities to enrich the uranium, and laboratories built for the Manhattan Project likely had a big lengthy government proposals attached.

Likely.  So as I asked before...
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Can you list some other proposals that might require more than 8000 pages from the same era?

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At 1:40 I see 2 actor-nauts kicking up some dust and dirt but nobody on their toes.

The weight distribution at the 1:40 mark is clearly wonky. The astronaut in the foreground seems to jump without his feet touching the lunar surface.
[/quote]

Sorry, but I think we're looking at different videos.  I see neither wonky balance nor weight distribution problems here and certainly no odd jumps.  Perhaps one of us is only seeing something they want to see.

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Rig Navigator

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #223 on: September 02, 2008, 01:29:34 AM »
Baron's job as a Safety Inspector was to report safety violations. That's all he was there for. If he sees that the Saturn V was being made out of balsa wood and aluminum sheeting he'd put that in his report as a safety violation. If he sees that the equipment is not being put into rigorous testing he'd put that into his report as a safety violation. His job is to watch NASA build its equipment and report to congress whether they were taking the necessary steps to build their craft to aerospace standards.

Seems to me that he would have pointed the "balsa wood and aluminum sheeting as a part of his report.  It would have been one hell of a safety violation putting two materials that are so flammable into the construction of the rocket.  Instead he told congress...

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Mr. WYDLER: I am really giving you a chance to tell us what you think. This is what I am offering to you. You can take the question the way you want. I am not trying to limit you in any particular way.

Mr. BARON: Very well. It is quite varied as to our problems are. As most people have said and realized, it is so extensive and covers so many areas it is difficult to believe that some of them even existed. I would say basically that we have had problems, extensive problems in safety, in cleaning materials, in items getting in the spacecraft that weren't supposed to be there, the morale of the people, the pressures put on the people by management are the things that really indicate that we don't have the proper management that we should have in this program.

Why talk about cleaning materials and morale when you have this big cover-up to expose?  Mr. Wydler practically begged him to expose something significant.


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Baron was clearly trying to reveal NASA for who they really were. But unfortunately NASA got to him before he could do irreversible damage to their integrity.

He had his chance and didn't take it?  When asked to give a specific example of one of the problems with NASA he chose a fuel handling problem.  It seems to me that he didn't have any information about a cover-up of the fact that the rockets really didn't fly or were in any other way non-functioning.  It looks like all of his testimony is about things that were legitimately safety related.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #224 on: September 02, 2008, 01:47:48 AM »
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He had his chance and didn't take it?  When asked to give a specific example of one of the problems with NASA he chose a fuel handling problem.  It seems to me that he didn't have any information about a cover-up of the fact that the rockets really didn't fly or were in any other way non-functioning.  It looks like all of his testimony is about things that were legitimately safety related.

At the time of the congressional hearing Apollo had yet to reach orbit. The program was still in the development stages. It didn't fly, and with the many hundreds safety discrepancies Baron alleged and pointed out in his reports it never would. Baron listed safety violations above any other violations.

Here's his quote again:

    Mr. BARON: Very well. It is quite varied as to our problems are. As most people have said and realized, it is so extensive and covers so many areas it is difficult to believe that some of them even existed. I would say basically that we have had problems, extensive problems in safety, in cleaning materials, in items getting in the spacecraft that weren't supposed to be there, the morale of the people, the pressures put on the people by management are the things that really indicate that we don't have the proper management that we should have in this program.

Baron is saying that everything is wrong with NASA's practices, from outrageous safety violations to the pressures put on the underlings by management. Baron is expressing his amazement that NASA's state was in such shambles that there was not one good thing he could say about it.

At the very start of the hearing Thomas Baron complained of a lack of communication. NASA deliberately kept their facilities sectionalized and put up numerous barriers for sections to communicate with each other. In this way no one group could know what gizmo or gadget the other group had been instructed to build or test. Only the top management could fit the puzzle pieces together. By keeping their employees in a thick shroud of ignorance it prevented anyone from gaining a clear understanding to the true purpose of the machines they were contributing to build.

Once Baron started asking too many questions and piecing too many of the puzzle pieces together NASA fired him.

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Why talk about cleaning materials and morale when you have this big cover-up to expose?

NASA doesn't tell everyone who works for them that the program was a "cover up". Only relatively few at the top knew the true purpose and aims of the organization. Baron, and others like him were tasked with building or testing small parts of the craft to be submitted for review and constructed into their final design at a future date by parties unknown. The entire organization was so uncommunicative with each other and kept in the dark that morale was at a dangerous state. Baron complained of employees being forced to work in isolation, only being instructed by their immediate superior and never seeing their work go through the integration and testing steps.

From what Baron tells us, the conditions were akin to being put into a white room and being told to build widgets to certain blueprints every day and then to place the completed product into a bin when you were done. That's as far as your participation or knowledge went. A low or mid-level employee had no knowledge of what his work was going to be used for, and no knowledge of its true purpose. There was no communication, and little to no face to face interaction. Even a hamburger flipper at McDonalds interfaced with more people and saw the results of his work with far better clarity than someone working at NASA did.

That's precisely why Baron felt that NASA was an organization which would never reach the moon - its structure was built around keeping everyone as out of the loop as humanly possible. This was the biggest safety violation in Baron's opinion and is why he mentions it first and foremost in the Congressional hearing.

It's unfortunate that we'll never get to see Baron's 500 page report which described NASA's violations in exact detail since he and his family experienced a desire to commit suicide together by parking their car on train tracks exactly one week after his public decry of NASA.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 10:11:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Rig Navigator

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #225 on: September 02, 2008, 04:21:33 AM »
NASA doesn't tell everyone who works for them that the program was a "cover up". Only relatively few at the top knew the true purpose and aims of the organization. Baron, and others like him were tasked with building or testing small parts of the craft to be submitted for review and constructed into their final design at a future date by parties unknown. The entire organization was so uncommunicative with each other and kept in the dark that morale was at a dangerous state. Baron complained of employees being forced to work in isolation, only being instructed by their immediate superior and never seeing their work go through the integration and testing steps.

So where in there is the evidence that the cover-up was not being able to go to the Moon because sustained rocket flight is impossible?  If he was too low to collect data about the entire organization, that blows the theory that he was about to "out" the impossibility of spaceflight.


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From what Baron tells us, the conditions were akin to being put into a white room and being told to build widgets to certain blueprints every day and then to place the completed product into a bin when you were done. That's as far as your participation or knowledge went. A low or mid-level employee had no knowledge of what his work was going to be used for, and no knowledge of its true purpose. There was no communication, and little to no face to face interaction. Even a hamburger flipper at McDonalds interfaced with more people and saw the results of their work with far better clarity than someone working at NASA did.

Many companies have this problem, not just NASA.  This doesn't explain what leads you to believe that he was killed because of what he specifically knew.  He only had one week to collect new information and if he had known more, the nature of his testimony is such that he would have said it.


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That's precisely why Baron felt that NASA was an organization which would never reach the moon - its structure was built around keeping everyone as out of the loop as humanly possible. This was the biggest safety violation in Baron's opinion and is why he mentions it first and foremost in the Congressional hearing.

That is the one of the big problems that NASA addressed in the wake of the Apollo 1 disaster.  They made communication better between the people designing the systems and the people tasked to test and assemble it.


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It's unfortunate that we'll never get to see Baron's 500 page report which described NASA's violations in exact detail since he and his family experienced a desire to commit suicide together by parking their car on train tracks exactly one week after his public decry of NASA.

It is, but not because he would have exposed that NASA was embezzling billions of tax dollars by building false equipment.

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Paizuri

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #226 on: September 06, 2008, 10:56:29 AM »
I don't rule out the government faking the moon landing, but not because "space travel is impossible".  I think if they did fake the landing, it was more to "make good" on their commitment to get into space before 1970, as well as before the Russians.  For NASA to have faked every single mission they've ever run would be impossible.  They would have to not only fake the missions (launch, landing, etc)  but also all the photographs and data obtained from the missions.  It would take hundreds or maybe thousands of people to fake that much information, and would be impossible to keep contained to that group.  I mean, every single picture we get back from the Mars rovers would take a team of people at least a week or 2 to fake, per picture.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #227 on: September 07, 2008, 02:42:36 AM »
I don't rule out the government faking the moon landing, but not because "space travel is impossible".  I think if they did fake the landing, it was more to "make good" on their commitment to get into space before 1970, as well as before the Russians.  For NASA to have faked every single mission they've ever run would be impossible.  They would have to not only fake the missions (launch, landing, etc)  but also all the photographs and data obtained from the missions.  It would take hundreds or maybe thousands of people to fake that much information, and would be impossible to keep contained to that group.  I mean, every single picture we get back from the Mars rovers would take a team of people at least a week or 2 to fake, per picture.

What photographs? Apollo 11 only brought back 20 images from its mission.

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Paizuri

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #228 on: September 07, 2008, 09:55:49 AM »
Which would be do-able for a forgery, but you don't just think Apollo 11 was fake.  For NASA to have faked EVERY SINGLE image and video from EVERY SINGLE mission, manned and unmanned would be impossible. 

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #229 on: September 08, 2008, 04:49:34 AM »
What photographs? Apollo 11 only brought back 20 images from its mission.

Well, I have done a cursory search, but quickly came up with more than 20...

http://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/apollo.html

I am not sure where you got the number of twenty from.  Can you provide a link to that source?

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mayhem

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #230 on: September 08, 2008, 05:09:10 AM »
Touchdown was on July 20th at 20:17 UTC...they collected 22kg of samples...they had about 25 sec of fuel remaining in Eagle at touchdown...in one of the pre-landing orbits the combined lunar/command module passed within 20km of the landing site at the Sea of Tranquility...lots of 20 or 20-ish numbers to choose from.

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #231 on: September 08, 2008, 05:12:10 AM »
Touchdown was on July 20th at 20:17 UTC...they collected 22kg of samples...they had about 25 sec of fuel remaining in Eagle at touchdown...in one of the pre-landing orbits the combined lunar/command module passed within 20km of the landing site at the Sea of Tranquility...lots of 20 or 20-ish numbers to choose from.

Hmm, maybe that is it.  He confused the amount of fuel left in the tank with the number of pictures taken.  WTF??!?

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its_amazing

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #232 on: September 08, 2008, 06:33:46 AM »
"Durring the mission, all nine of the 70-millimeter and all 13 of the 16-millimeter film magazines carried on board the spacecraft were exposed"


This comes straight from the Appolo 11 - Mission Report (1971)
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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #233 on: September 08, 2008, 10:06:42 AM »
"Durring the mission, all nine of the 70-millimeter and all 13 of the 16-millimeter film magazines carried on board the spacecraft were exposed"


This comes straight from the Appolo 11 - Mission Report (1971)

Well, we are getting closer.  22 magazines of film.

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markjo

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #234 on: September 08, 2008, 01:06:34 PM »
"Durring the mission, all nine of the 70-millimeter and all 13 of the 16-millimeter film magazines carried on board the spacecraft were exposed"


This comes straight from the Appolo 11 - Mission Report (1971)

Hmm.  If all of the film magazines were exposed, maybe 20 pictures were all that survived.
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GoodPoint

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #235 on: September 08, 2008, 06:18:03 PM »
I know.  I was so disappointed!


Who would have thought Mythbusters was affiliated with the Conspiracy?  It was obvious propaganda, and I for one now question every myth they've ever "confirmed" or "busted"!
Mythbusters are not affiliated with the conspiracy for one reason and one reason alone. There is no conspiracy.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #236 on: September 08, 2008, 08:23:01 PM »
I know.  I was so disappointed!


Who would have thought Mythbusters was affiliated with the Conspiracy?  It was obvious propaganda, and I for one now question every myth they've ever "confirmed" or "busted"!
Mythbusters are not affiliated with the conspiracy for one reason and one reason alone. There is no conspiracy.

Your post is a fail.

The earth is flat.  The Government says that the earth is round.  Therefore a conspiracy must exist to cover up the true shape of the earth.

My logic is undeniable.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #237 on: September 08, 2008, 11:22:02 PM »
I know.  I was so disappointed!


Who would have thought Mythbusters was affiliated with the Conspiracy?  It was obvious propaganda, and I for one now question every myth they've ever "confirmed" or "busted"!
Mythbusters are not affiliated with the conspiracy for one reason and one reason alone. There is no conspiracy.

Your post is a fail.

The earth is flat.  The Government says that the earth is round.  Therefore a conspiracy must exist to cover up the true shape of the earth.

My logic is undeniable.

It sure is.  Another victory for FE.  Woohoo.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Rig Navigator

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #238 on: September 09, 2008, 07:10:03 PM »
Still no answer from Tom about where he got the number of 20 for the total number of images returned from Apollo 11.  People have been trying to help you, but they just haven't been able to find a reference.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« Reply #239 on: September 09, 2008, 09:29:44 PM »
Still no answer from Tom about where he got the number of 20 for the total number of images returned from Apollo 11.  People have been trying to help you, but they just haven't been able to find a reference.

http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/search/search.cgi?searchpage=true&selections=AS11&browsepage=Go&hitsperpage=5&hitsperpage2=500&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=submit

Just count the number of pictures taken from the Lunar Surface (not the simulations or the inflight images). There are only 20.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 09:35:26 PM by Tom Bishop »