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Polaris and Sigma Octanis

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AmateurAstronomer

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Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« on: August 21, 2008, 07:03:14 AM »
In the northern hemisphere Polaris appears to rotate around the center of the sky, at the equator you get a band of stars that move horizontally across the center of the sky, and in the southern hemisphere Sigma Octantis appears to rotate around center of the sky. This is an indicator of a spherical sky, and is at the very least an aspect of FET that I've seen no indication of. Anyone care to explain how that works? Hopefully something better than optical illusion.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2008, 07:06:24 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 12, 2008, 09:03:52 PM
Quote
Ok... so... you're saying that the FE disk is not rotating, and it is the stars that are rotating/moving over the plane disk of the earth. I can't quite picture how that will work out but if your argument is internally consistent. I'd love to get a sense of how FE postulates the stars move.

The star systems move as gears, each one rubbing up against each other, causing the other to move in the path of least resistance. These Celestial Gears are all interacting at their outer reaches.

It looks something like this, except that the exterior gears don't rotate around the NP.


Beyond our local systems exist hundreds of other whirling systems, extending far across the endless antarctic tundras.

When we peer into the skies we see a fractal series of subsystems. The sun moves around the north pole. The planets move around the sun. Moons move around the planets.

The heavens are moving in patterns and schemas which compliment each other at every level resolvable by human eye or telescope.
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Rig Navigator

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2008, 07:19:37 AM »
That is a fancy optical illusion.

Can you explain, or get Tom to since all you did was post his answer, why there are no observations of the retrograde motion of stars that is required for those gears?
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2008, 07:25:36 AM »
I hope Tom can do better than that, because that makes no sense at all...
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divito the truthist

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2008, 07:26:27 AM »
Quote from: Rig Navigator on August 21, 2008, 07:19:37 AM
That is a fancy optical illusion.

Celestial gears eliminates the need for an optical illusion.

Quote from: Rig Navigator on August 21, 2008, 07:19:37 AM
Can you explain, or get Tom to since all you did was post his answer, why there are no observations of the retrograde motion of stars that is required for those gears?

Well, the intricacies of the actual layout and details that involve the motions of the celestial bodies are more than I'd rather think about. You'll have to wait and see if Tom has any details to explain. But in concept, it's a pretty simple thing to understand.
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Moon squirter

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2008, 07:53:50 AM »
Quote from: divito the truthist on August 21, 2008, 07:26:27 AM
Quote from: Rig Navigator on August 21, 2008, 07:19:37 AM
That is a fancy optical illusion.

Celestial gears eliminates the need for an optical illusion.

I think you are being very kind to "Celestial gears".  In fact it causes more problems than it solves.

1. It still does not provide a "spherical" sky - So it doesn't "eliminate the need for an optical illusion".
2. Why are the same constellations are observed in S/America, S/Africa and Australia
3. The "meshes" of the gears have never been observed (as least I've never seen a star-trail photograph showing two opposing gears).
4. What stops the gears from sharing stars and their rims?
5. Why don't the gears themselves orbit one another (what keeps them apart)?
5. Why aren't the sun and moon affected by these gears, or are they?

As usual lack of evidence is the key.


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markjo

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 11:52:36 AM »
Quote from: divito the truthist on August 21, 2008, 07:26:27 AM
Quote from: Rig Navigator on August 21, 2008, 07:19:37 AM
That is a fancy optical illusion.

Celestial gears eliminates the need for an optical illusion.

Quote from: Rig Navigator on August 21, 2008, 07:19:37 AM
Can you explain, or get Tom to since all you did was post his answer, why there are no observations of the retrograde motion of stars that is required for those gears?

Well, the intricacies of the actual layout and details that involve the motions of the celestial bodies are more than I'd rather think about. You'll have to wait and see if Tom has any details to explain. But in concept, it's a pretty simple thing to understand.

Are you old enough to have ever heard of a Spirograph?
http://wordsmith.org/anu/java/spirograph.html

That is what Tom's "celestial gears" would trace out in a long exposure picture.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 11:59:23 AM »
Quote from: markjo on August 21, 2008, 11:52:36 AM
Are you old enough to have ever heard of a Spirograph?

Yes, I have one.
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markjo

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 12:53:01 PM »
Quote from: divito the truthist on August 21, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: markjo on August 21, 2008, 11:52:36 AM
Are you old enough to have ever heard of a Spirograph?

Yes, I have one.

Then you know why Tom's celestial gears theory is nonsense.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 01:42:35 PM »
Quote from: markjo on August 21, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Then you know why Tom's celestial gears theory is nonsense.

If taken at literal value, then yes.
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dyno

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 05:24:06 PM »
Then at what other value should it be taken? Nonsense value?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 05:43:25 PM »
Quote
Are you old enough to have ever heard of a Spirograph?
http://wordsmith.org/anu/java/spirograph.html

That is what Tom's "celestial gears" would trace out in a long exposure picture.

In my quote it says "It looks something like this, except that the exterior gears don't rotate around the NP...." meaning that those gears attached to the Northern disk aren't moving around it. They're stationary.

Quote
1. It still does not provide a "spherical" sky - So it doesn't "eliminate the need for an optical illusion".

The sky only looks spherical because when you look up the stars are spread all around you from horizon to zenith.

Quote
2. Why are the same constellations are observed in S/America, S/Africa and Australia

Apart from a few constellations which are really just part of the edges of the Northern disk, none of the southern constellations can be seen between those three points.

Quote
3. The "meshes" of the gears have never been observed (as least I've never seen a star-trail photograph showing two opposing gears).

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0712/2007_09_14-orion-lq_vanGorp1200.jpg

Quote
4. What stops the gears from sharing stars and their rims?

They do share stars and rims. Perhaps every so often throughout the eons the gears will exchange stars.

Quote
5. Why don't the gears themselves orbit one another (what keeps them apart)?

There's probably some sort of "critical mass" for the size of a stellar system before it breaks into smaller systems. Your question is similar to "Why are all of the galaxies separate? After the Big Bang why didn't the galaxies just form and merge into one huge galaxy?"

Quote
5. Why aren't the sun and moon affected by these gears, or are they?

The sun and moon are affected, which is why they move at one rotation around the NP per twenty four hours.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 07:31:25 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 05:44:48 PM »
Quote
Can you explain, or get Tom to since all you did was post his answer, why there are no observations of the retrograde motion of stars that is required for those gears?

Compared to the counter-clockwise motion of the Northern stars, the stars in the South do move in a clockwise motion...

Look it up.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 05:50:35 PM by Tom Bishop »
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jdoe

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 06:38:25 PM »
Quote
Apart from a few constellations which are really just part of the edges of the Northern disk, none of the southern constellations can be seen between those three points.


Zambia, Africa http://www.moonglow.net/eclipse/index.html


San Pedro de Atacama, Chile http://www.astrosurf.com/cavadore/chiliObs/May2005/index.html


Uluru, Australia http://www.flickr.com/photos/drewdi/134382954/ (Southern Cross seen in upper left)

Here's an article about two scientists who observed Centauri B, a star in the Southen Cross, from telescopes in Chile and Australia.
http://www.oksana.com.au/aao_press_004.htm

EDIT: Forgot link to article
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 06:56:26 PM by jdoe »
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Fletch

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 06:49:25 PM »
Article?
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2008, 07:20:18 PM »
You're right, jdoe. The Southern Cross can be seen from both South America and Australia.

However, it is my contention that The Southern Cross (also known as the Southern Crux) is really just one of the constellations on the very outer edge of the Northern gear which rotates over South America, Africa and Australia. It can be seen by all three continents over a 24 hour period, but never at the exact same time.

The Southern Cross can be seen from latitudes as high as Hawaii, which means that the crux cannot be as close to the southern celestial center as your star maps indicate. Hawaii is facing in an entirely different northern direction in the RE model.

Here's the Southern Cross as seen from the volcanic Hawaiian island Mauna Loa: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020425.html
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 07:28:23 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2008, 07:25:35 PM »
As far as that article which says that the astronomers were observing the Southern Cross at the exact same time, the quote specifically says:

"The trick was to use two telescopes at essentially the same time."

What does "at essentially the same time" mean?

Earlier in the article it says "For over a week they observed..." Does 'at essentially the same time' mean that observations were taken within a couple days of each other, within the week of each other, or what?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 07:32:10 PM by Tom Bishop »
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oldsoldier

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2008, 07:26:02 PM »
Wow... add me to the list of believers who think Tom Bishop is a robot. He gave the EXACT same answer to a question I posted about a week ago... it's here:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22122.msg449103#msg449103

EDIT: oops, he/it edited it so it's now a bit different

and he never replied to my rebuttal of the star map he showed.
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oldsoldier

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2008, 07:39:03 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 21, 2008, 07:25:35 PM
As far as that article which says that the astronomers were observing the Southern Cross at the exact same time, the quote specifically says:

"The trick was to use two telescopes at essentially the same time."

What does "at essentially the same time" mean?

Earlier in the article it says "For over a week they observed..." Does 'at essentially the same time' mean that observations were taken within a couple days of each other, within the week of each other, or what?

I don't know why I'm replying to a robot... but ... for the rest of the human audience...

the technique is most likely either aperture synthesis or long baseline optical interferometry.
It's unfortunate that the original article didn't give more detail about the precise technique but here's one possibility:
http://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/telescopes/coast/handout.html

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jdoe

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2008, 08:02:48 PM »
Quote
However, it is my contention that The Southern Cross (also known as the Southern Crux) is really just one of the constellations on the very outer edge of the Northern gear which rotates over South America, Africa and Australia. It can be seen by all three continents over a 24 hour period, but never at the exact same time.

The Southern Cross can clearly be seen rotating around the southern celestial pole.



If what you say is true how could the Southern Cross possibly be used to find south?  One simply follows the long segment of the cross to the south celestial pole.  How could this possibly work if the Crux was in the northern system of stars?

Quote
The Southern Cross can be seen from latitudes as high as Hawaii, which means that the crux cannot be as close to the southern celestial center as your star maps indicate. Hawaii is facing in an entirely different northern direction in the RE model.

It's not impossible to see the Crux from northern latitudes.  If you had done the math you would have realized that.  According to this star chart, the Crux has a declination of about -60o, so it can be seen at a latitude of up to about 90-60 = 30oN.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 21, 2008, 07:25:35 PM


As far as that article which says that the astronomers were observing the Southern Cross at the exact same time, the quote specifically says:

"The trick was to use two telescopes at essentially the same time."

What does "at essentially the same time" mean?

Earlier in the article it says "For over a week they observed..." Does 'at essentially the same time' mean that observations were taken within a couple days of each other, within the week of each other, or what?

Of course they're not looking at it at the exact same time, I never intended it to mean such.
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markjo

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 08:04:23 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 21, 2008, 05:43:25 PM
Quote
Are you old enough to have ever heard of a Spirograph?
http://wordsmith.org/anu/java/spirograph.html

That is what Tom's "celestial gears" would trace out in a long exposure picture.

In my quote it says "It looks something like this, except that the exterior gears don't rotate around the NP...." meaning that those gears attached to the Northern disk aren't moving around it. They're stationary.

So your celestial gears look something like your picture, except that it doesn't work like your picture?  Perhaps you should find or make a picture that does look and work like your celestial gears.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 08:14:55 PM »
Quote
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/486475234_92b86f838b.jpg?v=0

That's not the Southern Cross. I don't know what that is. One of Cross stars don't even match where the star trail ends. Whoever made that picture was obviously just guessing and trying to fit a cross somewhere for some school astronomy project.

Quote
If what you say is true how could the Southern Cross possibly be used to find south?  One simply follows the long segment of the cross to the south celestial pole.  How could this possibly work if the Crux was in the northern system of stars?

The bottom of the cross would continuously be pointing Southward as it rotates over each of the three continents.

Quote
So your celestial gears look something like your picture, except that it doesn't work like your picture?  Perhaps you should find or make a picture that does look and work like your celestial gears.

I'll keep the idea in mind. A little reading comprehension would help on your end as well.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:17:14 PM by Tom Bishop »
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jdoe

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 08:43:58 PM »
Quote
That's not the Southern Cross. I don't know what that is. One of Cross stars don't even match where the star trail ends. Whoever made that picture was obviously just guessing and trying to fit a cross somewhere for some school astronomy project.

LOL.  The star trails match up perfectly in both photos.  Navigators have used the Crux for centuries.  One of the rules they use to find south is to extend the long arm of the Crux 4.5 times its length right to the pole.  The photos I have provided are consistent with this.  Would someone from the southern hemisphere please just confirm these facts for Tom?
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dyno

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 08:57:53 PM »
Looks just like that from Perth in Western Australia
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Rig Navigator

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 11:38:07 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 21, 2008, 05:44:48 PM
Compared to the counter-clockwise motion of the Northern stars, the stars in the South do move in a clockwise motion...

Look it up.

Yep, no examples of stars moving the opposite direction of their peers.  Did you find some examples?
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Moon squirter

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2008, 12:56:01 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 21, 2008, 08:14:55 PM
That's not the Southern Cross.

The photographic evidence stands up.  The "window" looses!
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Rig Navigator

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2008, 02:02:25 AM »


Looking at this diagram, and I still can't figure out how you can make a case for this describing real world observations of the stars.

Assuming that the North Pole is at the center of the central gear (light blue), would make each gear worth 90° of the sky to have the motion observed in the northern hemisphere.  On this model, the middle gears (dark blue) are of equal size, so that puts the rotation point at 45° south declination using celestial coordinates.  This means that any star south of this point should show retrograde motion, which we don't observe.

There is also the issue of stars rotating toward the celestial equator that would have to happen in this model.  This hasn't been observed either.  Even the disputed images above don't show stars reversing their motion and moving "back around" toward the celestial equator.  The images show the stars moving in uniform curves.

The blank spots also cause problems.  The 60° of blank space would have to be moving overhead over the course of a night, and would be noticed if they existed.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2008, 11:26:18 AM »


I think this is pretty close to what Tom is getting at... Notwithstanding the problems others have already mentioned, I have a few of my own.

First, you'd have to have an unlimited number of gears to cover every latitude, and those gears would interfere with each other. I say that because at all southern latitudes the southern focal point appears due south. With just a finite number of gears, at some points it would appear to be to the left or right of due south. And when you have even more than one gear, theres the problem of how there are that many gears showing basically the same stars. Are they multiple stars, or is that just some optical illusion?




Secondly, unless you're directly underneath one, the polar focal points should appear to be ovoid and remain in the sky, and yet they are circular regardless of location, and dip below the horizon no less.. I'm sure that will be explained as some kind of optical illusion though...


Thirdly, the gears proposal should show the 2 different hemisphere fields pulling away from each other at some point. Here you have some curving, no doubt, but the spacing between the stars is not increasing in any meaningful way.

This panoramic looks pretty much like it's pulling away, but if you look at it in
this VR mov from the Barden Ridge Observatory, you can see that it is in fact not doing so.

This VR mov is unrelated, but very cool.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 10:04:16 PM by AmatureAstronomer »
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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2008, 04:09:53 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 21, 2008, 05:43:25 PM
Quote
3. The "meshes" of the gears have never been observed (as least I've never seen a star-trail photograph showing two opposing gears).

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0712/2007_09_14-orion-lq_vanGorp1200.jpg

Why are you linking photos provided by NASA?
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sokarul

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Re: Polaris and Sigma Octanis
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2008, 05:38:10 PM »
Quote from: AmatureAstronomer on August 22, 2008, 11:26:18 AM



Seeing it like that shows how stupid his "theory" is. 
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