If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2008, 09:05:11 AM »
Yeah I think we're getting away from the crux of the question I was asking ... "How can a pilot know his ground speed? Can it be ascertained solely by the information collected on the plane, or does s/he need input from an external source?"

A pilot knows his ground speed by the information collected from the airplane via, pitot tubes, static ports, INS, GPS, and its TAS computer.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2008, 09:47:18 AM »
I got to thinking about your question again and I think I answered it incorrectly.

In the time before GPS and computer systems, pilots knew how fast they were going by shooting celestial nav lines.  Actually their navigator did.  If a Nav new his airpspeed from the instrumens and then converted that speed to his TAS corrected for altitude and temprature, and also knew that he flew that speed for x amount of time he should have covered x amount of distance.  He would then check that number against the stars, or sun if it was in the daytime and triangulate his position on the earth.  If the number matched there was a negligible wind.  If they didnt IE more distance was covered or less or possible a cross wind then they knew which way the wind was blowing and how fast.  The computers and GPS now do these calculations for you. 

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2008, 03:49:51 PM »
the speed of the plane here has never been the question, i dont get why you think it is...

“How come it is possible to travel non-stop from a place like Chile to New Zealand non-stop??? How can this non-stop flight be possible to make in approx 13-14 hrs when given the flat Earth distance it should take over 2 days...”

I suggested that either the planes speed, the distance covered or the time traveled was in question, and possibly all 3.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 03:54:59 PM by Fletch »
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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2008, 03:54:36 PM »
He would then check that number against the stars, or sun if it was in the daytime and triangulate his position on the earth.
Can you triangulate your position on Earth if you are over water?
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2008, 03:57:49 PM »
Especially over water, as there are no land based nav beacons and or points of reference.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2008, 04:03:27 PM »
Especially over water, as there are no land based nav beacons and or points of reference.
So how does that work, then?
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2008, 04:10:18 PM »
Especially over water, as there are no land based nav beacons and or points of reference.
So how does that work, then?

I wish my Nav buddy was still around he could explain it way better than I am about to attempt, but here goes.

Every couple of years there would be a book published.  Inside that book was angles of all the stars and sun and moon on any given day, say today at 12 noon at Kaneohe Bay HI the sun should be at x angle above the horizon from this spot, at 1203 it should be at x angle, and at 1206 it would be at x angle.  By having all three of the those angles I could draw lines to where I think I am and where the sun says I am. They are called cell lines.  The same goes for the stars and moon.  All VERY predictable in RET.  Again my explanation is pretty bad.  Here is the wiki on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2008, 06:16:36 PM »
That's pretty impressive that they can predict all that. When did they first publish this book? How specific geographically does it have to be? I would imagine that Latitudinally it would need to be pretty specific, but what about Longitudinally?
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2008, 06:23:18 PM »
I would assume it would have to be dead balls on accurate for all Lat Longs everywhere.  We flew everywhere using it.



In Great Britain, The Nautical Almanac has been published annually by the HM Nautical Almanac Office, ever since the first edition was published in 1767. In the United States of America, a nautical almanac has been published annually by the US Naval Observatory since 1852. Since 1958, the USNO and HMNAO have jointly published a unified nautical almanac, for use by the navies of both countries. Almanac data is now available online from the US Naval Observatory.


Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2008, 06:57:34 PM »
Sorry when you said Kaneohe Bay, I took that to mean that was how it was referenced in the book, but obviously they have a lat/long position, the time of day, and the angles you should observe, yeah? So one book does the entire world for a couple of years? How big is the book? And is it sorted by location first then dates/times?
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2008, 07:54:59 PM »
It was a pretty big book. I think its all online now.


http://www.starpath.com/catalog/books/1844.htm

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2008, 10:59:08 AM »
That's pretty impressive that they can predict all that. When did they first publish this book? How specific geographically does it have to be? I would imagine that Latitudinally it would need to be pretty specific, but what about Longitudinally?

Almanacs that predict the location of the sun, moon and stars have been in existence since at least 1800, and probably before that is just the only one that I can remember off of the top of my head.

There is no difference between the tables used for celestial navigation used by the shipping industry and the aeronautical industry.  The primary difference is the equipment used.  For aeronautical work, the sextant has to have a level to establish the measurement, where shipping uses the visible horizon.  With height of eye data, it becomes a matter of using spherical trigonometry to establish your position.

With an accurate watch, careful observations and a clear horizon I can establish my position within 1/3 nm (800 yds) of the position determined by the GPS receivers.  This is getting a fix based on six stars spaced around the sky.  If possible, I like to use planets in addition to the stars just to gain some additional checks on the math.

Latitude is determined by shooting the sun at local apparent noon (LAN), or if you are in the northern hemisphere, an altitude of Polaris (north star).

Longitude is determined by either precisely measuring the time of LAN or by plotting more than one fix.

Aeronautical celestial navigation is a series of fixes dead reckoned (DR) to build up a track.  The navigator maintains the track and recommends course corrections to the pilot.  They don't tend to rely on LAN, but you can use any star on a true bearing of 000° or 180° (meridian passage) to quickly determine latitude.

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spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2008, 11:30:20 AM »
That's pretty impressive that they can predict all that. When did they first publish this book? How specific geographically does it have to be? I would imagine that Latitudinally it would need to be pretty specific, but what about Longitudinally?

Almanacs that predict the location of the sun, moon and stars have been in existence since at least 1800, and probably before that is just the only one that I can remember off of the top of my head.

There is no difference between the tables used for celestial navigation used by the shipping industry and the aeronautical industry.  The primary difference is the equipment used.  For aeronautical work, the sextant has to have a level to establish the measurement, where shipping uses the visible horizon.  With height of eye data, it becomes a matter of using spherical trigonometry to establish your position.

With an accurate watch, careful observations and a clear horizon I can establish my position within 1/3 nm (800 yds) of the position determined by the GPS receivers.  This is getting a fix based on six stars spaced around the sky.  If possible, I like to use planets in addition to the stars just to gain some additional checks on the math.

Latitude is determined by shooting the sun at local apparent noon (LAN), or if you are in the northern hemisphere, an altitude of Polaris (north star).

Longitude is determined by either precisely measuring the time of LAN or by plotting more than one fix.

Aeronautical celestial navigation is a series of fixes dead reckoned (DR) to build up a track.  The navigator maintains the track and recommends course corrections to the pilot.  They don't tend to rely on LAN, but you can use any star on a true bearing of 000° or 180° (meridian passage) to quickly determine latitude.

You know what sucks... your doing all this but, its all a lie because your really not doing it because the earth is flat...

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2008, 12:53:09 PM »
Yeah I think we're getting away from the crux of the question I was asking ... "How can a pilot know his ground speed? Can it be ascertained solely by the information collected on the plane, or does s/he need input from an external source?"

A pilot knows his ground speed by the information collected from the airplane via, pitot tubes, static ports, INS, GPS, and its TAS computer.

HEY HEY HEY HEY!!! I know the dam "Gay" model suposidly replaced us but us navs can find all that crap with a wiz wheel and a TACAN andyou know it Wardogg :)

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2008, 12:54:35 PM »
Especially over water, as there are no land based nav beacons and or points of reference.

ADFs buddy...dont' tell me you forgot about those?  Also you can use barometric presure to come up with a refrence line very very acuratly withing 2-10 NM

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2008, 01:02:59 PM »
Especially over water, as there are no land based nav beacons and or points of reference.
So how does that work, then?

I wish my Nav buddy was still around he could explain it way better than I am about to attempt, but here goes.

Every couple of years there would be a book published.  Inside that book was angles of all the stars and sun and moon on any given day, say today at 12 noon at Kaneohe Bay HI the sun should be at x angle above the horizon from this spot, at 1203 it should be at x angle, and at 1206 it would be at x angle.  By having all three of the those angles I could draw lines to where I think I am and where the sun says I am. They are called cell lines.  The same goes for the stars and moon.  All VERY predictable in RET.  Again my explanation is pretty bad.  Here is the wiki on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation

Rig did better of a job than I ever could.  Only gripe I have is the bit about DR.  Navigation is esentialy like GPS in it uses several points of refrence to triangulate your position on a chart.  Different stars would provide differnt lines, along with ADFs, the INS (gyro based nav system) DR and several other things.  Amazingly acurite, and I wish they hadn't stoped teaching it in nav school.

And the books are republished every year.  Even though we don't use it we still get the damn things in the pub's room and have to file all of it.  Though, one of the old school guys would usualy snatch them up right after they came in.

And wardog's thing about a GPS not being able to be used for navigation is correct.  The systems we use are actualy more acurite than the civilian moddels however they have no integrity monoriting system.  Basicly the gps has no way of checking itself to make sure it's not screwed up.  I've been flying laps over the water by North Carolina and magicly 30 sec later we ended up in central Africa, atleast acording to the GPS system.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2008, 01:07:59 PM »
Especially over water, as there are no land based nav beacons and or points of reference.

ADFs buddy...dont' tell me you forgot about those?  Also you can use barometric presure to come up with a refrence line very very acuratly withing 2-10 NM

You cant always get an ADF signal.  Hawaii to Wake was one I think.  Also flying over the land ocean of Canada there were a couple of spots with no ADF signal.
Yeah I think we're getting away from the crux of the question I was asking ... "How can a pilot know his ground speed? Can it be ascertained solely by the information collected on the plane, or does s/he need input from an external source?"

A pilot knows his ground speed by the information collected from the airplane via, pitot tubes, static ports, INS, GPS, and its TAS computer.

HEY HEY HEY HEY!!! I know the dam "Gay" model suposidly replaced us but us navs can find all that crap with a wiz wheel and a TACAN andyou know it Wardogg :)

Ahh yes the almighty Whiz Wheel.  Im not sure a navigator even knows his name without refering to one. 

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2008, 10:17:44 AM »

...

#3 is also mine... the plane can either go faster or slower. Top speed on a passenger plane (not the concord) is about 550 MPH, remember we said they were also surfing the PFJ putting then at about 700 MPH which is really close to the sound barrier (im not sure what the exact speed is 770 or so is the sound barrier). if that happens poof! everyone dies and now the Ice guards have to build robot people so we never know that our family has died.

....


Its highly unlikely the robot people are built by the ice guards since they are busy doing their job guarding the ice wall. . .
You know what sucks... your doing all this but, its all a lie because your really not doing it because the earth is flat...

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2008, 04:03:35 PM »
So is there any further clarifaction for any of this phenomenon from the FE point of view?

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spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2008, 07:04:21 PM »
So is there any further clarifaction for any of this phenomenon from the FE point of view?

I don't think this thread is a RE victory it's more like a FE fail... another FE fail.

If the earth is flat, these are things that should be easy to explain.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 08:22:16 PM by spacemanjones »