If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2

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spacemanjones

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If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« on: August 16, 2008, 02:10:27 AM »
Hi, it’s me again. Again I have a few questions and this has to do with weather and travel. I was going to create a thread showing how  weather patterns on a spherical earth and how they don’t work on a flat earth, but I ran in to a thread talking about how it would be impossible to travel from different points because their distance is so great in the southern hemisphere on a flat earth.
Now Lomein987 asked “How come it is possible to travel non-stop from a place like Chile to New Zealand non-stop??? on a spherical Earth, the distance is approximately 6000 miles, but using the flat-earth model, the distance is in the neighborhood of approximately 25000 miles.  Non-stop flights occur between these two countries all the time. Yet the longest recorded commericial flight has been a mere 10,300 miles (Newark to Indonesia).

How can this non-stop flight be possible to make in approx 13-14 hrs when given the flat Earth distance it should take over 2 days...”
The only answer he got was “Jet streams”. This shows that the person answering the question has no clue about jet streams… I do.

Fig 1-1
 


There are 3 primary jets:
The first and primary jet would be the Jet stream or polar front jet (thick red arrow). This jet is the fastest of all 3 and known to reach speeds over 200 MPH (very rare). This jet forms because of strong horizontal temperature contrast and coriolis force. Which would not exists on a flat earth, whatever we will ignore that for some other time.
The you have what’s the Sub tropical (blue arrow) jet which can hit speeds of 70 Mph and thanks to the conservation of angular momentum the most northern portion of the jet over the northern hemisphere will be its max speed, and in the southern hemisphere, the most southern portion of the jet will be its max speed. So basically the peaks of the ridges .
Last is the arctic and Antarctic jets (skinny red). These usually stay well below 100 MPH.
All these jets move from WEST to EAST… this is a fact.
The core of these jets are where the high winds speeds are located and if you were to average the entire jets wind speeds out they all will be way below 70 MPH on average.

Fig 1-2



Before anyone says “well If you stay in the core you will be fine”. First of all that’s a really bad idea unless you’re flying in a C130, (hurricane hunter) because of severe turbulence. Second the actual core doesn’t  travel at 200 Kts along the Jet stream (ya im going to Kts because that’s  what we use in weather), The winds within the core are moving at that speed.

Fig 1-3




Here you can sorta see what I am saying. Think of the air as fluid getting squeezed through a small area which would accelerate it until it was able to free flow again. This is a super basic explanation and if you want to know more information about this subject Google “Jet max”.

Here is my flat earth drawing showing all the jets “working”

Fig 2-1



So here all these winds are still going West to east as you can see. This is a fact and can be observed with any weather radar system (Doppler) just google vertical wind profile, or Skew-T (not Doppler).
So now lets go back to the question that started this all off:
“How come it is possible to travel non-stop from a place like Chile to New Zealand non-stop??? on a spherical Earth, the distance is approximately 6000 miles, but using the flat-earth model, the distance is in the neighborhood of approximately 25000 miles. “

The answer was :
“Jet stream”

I say:
“WRONG”
If they somehow catch a super jet max that goes 200 MPH the whole way around it still wouldn’t be fast enough to make it from one side to the other in the 12-14 hour time frame. They would also be near the speed of sound if not breaking it which means the aircraft would fall apart since it was not designed to handle the stress of breaking the sound barrier or even being near it (aircraft speed 550 MPH + 200 MPH… I know that’s not the speed of sound but almost).

Remember Fig 2-1 when looking at Fig 2-2.



-these drawings aren’t to scale but they are close
With FE the travel distance between A and B is much further than the travel from the points on the FE. One green arrow follows the jet streams the other is the shortest distance which would be faster than following the jet streams because an avg boost of 50-80 MPH from following the Jet stream will only cut the time by a couple of hours. If you’re going 25000 miles with the FET, 100 extra MPH thanks to the Jet it won’t improve you time all that much when traveling 25000 miles. That is nowhere enough speed to cut your trip time down to 12-14 hours. 25000 miles in 12-14 hours just doesn’t work with the magical Jet stream.
Unless this is all a conspiracy… THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!





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spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2008, 05:19:18 AM »
bump

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2008, 05:30:55 AM »
So true.

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sokarul

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2008, 01:23:21 PM »
As the difficulty of the question goes up, the number of fe responses goes down. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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Parsifal

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2008, 01:30:24 PM »
I would respond if I had any education in the field of meteorology. Being relatively ignorant of it, however, I think it better to await the response of someone who does know more about what they are talking about.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2008, 10:26:36 PM »
As the difficulty of the question goes up, the number of fe responses goes down. 
Obviously. What do you think the ratio of people arguing RE to FE is?

Like Robosteve I know nothing about meterology. But I'm happy to throw some ideas out there.

Firstly, we do not know what the map of Flat Eart actually looks like. No accurate cartology of the FE model has been done. So, if airspeed is accurate, and time travelled is known, then New Zealand and Chile must be closer together then is measured in the map you are using to calculate "in the neighbourhood of approximately 25 000 miles".

Or if the distance is approximately 25 000 miles accurate and time travelled is known, then air speed must be faster than is measured.

Or if distance is approximately 25 000 miles, and airspeed is accurate, than time travelled must be erroneous.

A combination of all 3 seems the most likely explantion to me.
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2008, 10:34:18 PM »
Call me crazy but the jet in the southern hemisphere go the other direction don't they?

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WardoggKC130FE

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spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2008, 10:44:09 PM »
As the difficulty of the question goes up, the number of fe responses goes down. 
Obviously. What do you think the ratio of people arguing RE to FE is?

Like Robosteve I know nothing about meterology. But I'm happy to throw some ideas out there.

Firstly, we do not know what the map of Flat Earth actually looks like. No accurate cartology of the FE model has been done. So, if airspeed is accurate, and time traveled is known, then New Zealand and Chile must be closer together then is measured in the map you are using to calculate "in the neighborhood of approximately 25 000 miles".

Or if the distance is approximately 25 000 miles accurate and time traveled is known, then air speed must be faster than is measured.

Or if distance is approximately 25 000 miles, and airspeed is accurate, than time traveled must be erroneous.

A combination of all 3 seems the most likely explanation to me.

Sure you can keep the 1st one ill give that to you (see I even let you guys have things something I never see you do with RE ideas)

#2 you can't have... so your telling me that the people in the plane all get tricked, drugged... whatever. If that's the case what about the people at the arriving airport... family friends are they also tricked. I know that when im about to take a flight I always call to let friends and family know im getting on the plane "see ya in ## hours" that is I always say. I can keep going on that one but ill stop I want to play AOC.

#3 is also mine... the plane can either go faster or slower. Top speed on a passenger plane (not the concord) is about 550 MPH, remember we said they were also surfing the PFJ putting then at about 700 MPH which is really close to the sound barrier (im not sure what the exact speed is 770 or so is the sound barrier). if that happens poof! everyone dies and now the Ice guards have to build robot people so we never know that our family has died.

I use to do this with my dad when i was 8 years old. i would ask a simple question he would give me a simple answer. then with my 8 year old brain i would throw something out like "well if that happens like that dad could Robocop stop it". then my dad would say something like "sure i guess" so i would go back to my pals in school and tell them that whatever can happen can only be stopped if Robocop stops it.

There you see something that isn't a fact got turned in to fact.

If another kids would have called BS on me i would have said that hes full of shit because my dad told me so or whatever and nothing would have changed my mind.


Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2008, 11:09:36 PM »
I think you've mixed up #2 & #3.

Time travelled is almost always an approximation. Flights arrive late/early all the time.

If a plane is travelling at 550 and it's speed is being increased by a Jet Stream by 100, what speed will be indicated on the instrument panel?
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 11:26:20 PM »
Well I guarantee its not going to be 550 or 650 or 450 for that no matter which way the winds are heading.


On the instrument panel you have IAS or CAS (Indicated Airspeed or Calculated Airspeed) depending on the type of aircraft.  Both take temperature and pressure readings along with an airflow reading from pitot static tubes or ports.  The jetsteam has no effect on the IAS or CAS. Now GS (groundspeed) on the other hand is effected by the jetstream.  GS is calculated by taking your TAS (true airspeed) and either adding or subtracting the jetstream wind.  IE headwind or tailwind. 

TAS = 500 kts plus a 100 kt tailwind would give you a GS of 600 kts
subtract if its a headwind.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 11:47:44 PM »
And is the GS not shown on the instrument panel? So you have no real indication of how fast you are actually travelling?
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

?

spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 11:54:10 PM »
you guys are changing the subject here...
aircraft has to travel a retarded long distance on a flat earth, I am just saying it cant go the speed it would have to reach its destination in the time allotted without falling apart. It would have to go like 3 times the speed of sound. Yes your right the can't tell the exact speed they are going... but I can tell you one thing id they encounter head wind they will be going slower that's why I have always said they are getting tail wind here to help you guys out.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 11:57:30 PM »
And is the GS not shown on the instrument panel? So you have no real indication of how fast you are actually travelling?

I know exactly how fast Im traveling.  Whatever the IAS is.

Usually the GS is shown on a FMS screen of some sort.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2008, 12:05:51 AM »
And is the GS not shown on the instrument panel? So you have no real indication of how fast you are actually travelling?

I know exactly how fast Im traveling.  Whatever the IAS is.

Usually the GS is shown on a FMS screen of some sort.
My mistake, I meant how quickly the surface of the earth is passing beneath you.

FMS screen? So how do they calculate the speed of the Jet Stream?
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

?

spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2008, 12:06:39 AM »
And is the GS not shown on the instrument panel? So you have no real indication of how fast you are actually travelling?

I know exactly how fast Im traveling.  Whatever the IAS is.

Usually the GS is shown on a FMS screen of some sort.

thats not what we are talking about here... You fly a C130 right or you did. what would happen if that airframe hit Mach I. POOF no more wardogg.
I am saying that the aircrafts cant go the speed they need to to make it to one side of the flat earth to the other even if they surf the PFJ. They have a top speed...

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spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 12:13:27 AM »
And is the GS not shown on the instrument panel? So you have no real indication of how fast you are actually travelling?

I know exactly how fast Im traveling.  Whatever the IAS is.

Usually the GS is shown on a FMS screen of some sort.
My mistake, I meant how quickly the surface of the earth is passing beneath you.

FMS screen? So how do they calculate the speed of the Jet Stream?

there are 4 ways i know of.

1 the litterly let a ballon float up with special equipment to measure temps, dewpoint and they track where and how fast it moves. This way they are able to see the diffrent layers in the atmosphere and wind speeds (google atmospheric soundings or SKEW-T)

2 is the same thing but they instead drop this device from a ballon or aircraft (both these tools are used alot in the military for (jumpers and HALO jumps)

3 an aircraft Pirep (guy in the radio says hey im going this fast at this height)

4 Verticle wind profile (a doppler weather radar picks up small drops of water and ice "clouds" and tracks how fast they are moving.

Let me know if you understand i can provide links and stuff

i dont mind the questions if you realy are trying to understand.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 12:14:01 AM »
you guys are changing the subject here...
aircraft has to travel a retarded long distance on a flat earth, I am just saying it cant go the speed it would have to reach its destination in the time allotted without falling apart. It would have to go like 3 times the speed of sound. Yes your right the can't tell the exact speed they are going... but I can tell you one thing id they encounter head wind they will be going slower that's why I have always said they are getting tail wind here to help you guys out.
Firstly stop using words like that in your sentences. On behalf of the mentally infirm on this planet, I find it incredibly offensive, and it does nothing to bolster your point of view.

I'm just trying to point out that you don't know how far you're travelling or how fast you're going, so to say you can't travel it in a certain time frame is not a scientific argument.

And I've replied in your other thread too about the magnetic fields and what not.
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

?

spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 12:20:30 AM »
you guys are changing the subject here...
aircraft has to travel a retarded long distance on a flat earth, I am just saying it cant go the speed it would have to reach its destination in the time allotted without falling apart. It would have to go like 3 times the speed of sound. Yes your right the can't tell the exact speed they are going... but I can tell you one thing id they encounter head wind they will be going slower that's why I have always said they are getting tail wind here to help you guys out.
Firstly stop using words like that in your sentences. On behalf of the mentally infirm on this planet, I find it incredibly offensive, and it does nothing to bolster your point of view.

I'm just trying to point out that you don't know how far you're travelling or how fast you're going, so to say you can't travel it in a certain time frame is not a scientific argument.

And I've replied in your other thread too about the magnetic fields and what not.

Sorry i forgot that most FE people are retarded... wont happen again.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2008, 12:30:10 AM »
My mistake, I meant how quickly the surface of the earth is passing beneath you.

FMS screen? So how do they calculate the speed of the Jet Stream?

Your multiple questions are actually one.

The TAS computer knows the IAS(CAS) it also knows the Altitude and Temperature and Pressure that the aircraft is currently at.  Once the pressure, altitude, and temperature are fed into the computer it changes the IAS into the TAS.

The TAS is then fed to another computer.  A performance computer or something of the like.  The performance computer is getting a signal from a GPS or an INS(internal navigation system).  It know how fast you are passing LAT LONGS. By comparing the numbers it can tell what the current winds are aloft and once it has that it can tell you your GS.  Which how fast the ground is passing underneath the airplane.

FMS stands for Flight Management System.  It usually houses the autopilot and some navigation tools amongst other things.


thats not what we are talking about here... You fly a C130 right or you did. what would happen if that airframe hit Mach I. POOF no more wardogg.
I am saying that the aircrafts cant go the speed they need to to make it to one side of the flat earth to the other even if they surf the PFJ. They have a top speed...

You are absolutely correct.  If you fly a KC-130 to Mach 1 the wings would fold and the Mighty Herk would become a big grey tube.

And you are also correct the distances in the southern hemisphere in FET do not add up for the flight times used for fuel planning and whatnot.

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spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2008, 12:34:11 AM »
wardogg are you an FE or RE, just wondering if a FE just agreed with me on somthing... thats it.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2008, 12:41:56 AM »
Sorry Im RE.

Sometimes I explain FE to newbs for fun.  ;)

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2008, 01:28:08 AM »
Sorry i forgot that most FE people are retarded... wont happen again.
Seriously, can you not see how offensive that is? You are using an adjective that describes a group of people on this planet, as an insult. Replace that word with jewish, chinese, diabetic, bald. It makes you seem like a small minded arrogant fool, and weakens any point you are tyring to make here. Insults also decrease the chances anyone will engage you in a debate, which you clearly want to do.
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2008, 01:32:09 AM »
The TAS is then fed to another computer.  A performance computer or something of the like.  The performance computer is getting a signal from a GPS or an INS(internal navigation system).  It know how fast you are passing LAT LONGS. By comparing the numbers it can tell what the current winds are aloft and once it has that it can tell you your GS.

If the GPS can tell you how fast you are travelling, isn't that your GS? It seems like it would be calculating the wind speed by comparing the Air Speed to the Ground Speed, rather than the other way around.
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

*

WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2008, 01:34:53 AM »
Yes in a way.  On a herk GPS is only a reference not an actual navigational aid.

On commercial airplanes its a bit different.  Before GPS other navigational aids were used to determine the winds aloft.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2008, 01:42:27 AM »
On commercial airplanes its a bit different.
How so?
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

*

WardoggKC130FE

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2008, 01:45:22 AM »
On commercial airplanes its a bit different.
How so?

Commercial jets can use their GPS as a navigational aid and its tied into more systems than on my old 1960s Herk.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2008, 01:46:20 AM »
there are 4 ways i know of.

1 the litterly let a ballon float up with special equipment to measure temps, dewpoint and they track where and how fast it moves. This way they are able to see the diffrent layers in the atmosphere and wind speeds (google atmospheric soundings or SKEW-T)

2 is the same thing but they instead drop this device from a ballon or aircraft (both these tools are used alot in the military for (jumpers and HALO jumps)

3 an aircraft Pirep (guy in the radio says hey im going this fast at this height)

4 Verticle wind profile (a doppler weather radar picks up small drops of water and ice "clouds" and tracks how fast they are moving.

Let me know if you understand i can provide links and stuff

i dont mind the questions if you realy are trying to understand.
Yes I'm trying to understand. It seems that none of these methods are acutally attached to a plane as it is flying, and are reliant on information being fed from elsewhere.
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2008, 01:51:08 AM »
On commercial airplanes its a bit different.
How so?

Commercial jets can use their GPS as a navigational aid and its tied into more systems than on my old 1960s Herk.
Yeah I think we're getting away from the crux of the question I was asking ... "How can a pilot know his ground speed? Can it be ascertained solely by the information collected on the plane, or does s/he need input from an external source?"
Quote from: General Douchebag[/quote
If Eminem had actually died, I would feel the force realign.
Quote from: ghazwozza
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

?

spacemanjones

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Re: If the earth is flat explain this to me Part 2
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2008, 05:26:55 AM »
the speed of the plane here has never been the question, i dont get why you think it is... thats just retarded. The problem is that passanger airframes can not break the speed of sound if they do they fall apart. To reach one side of the south FE to another side of the south FE they would need to break the speed of south like 3 times over to make it there in the time it takes right now in real life witnessed by everyone who has made that trip.