Looking for an intelligent argument. (Terminal Velocity)

  • 883 Replies
  • 149542 Views
*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #210 on: August 17, 2008, 02:03:51 PM »
One of the strange consequences of relativity is that you are accelerating up, falling objects are not accelerating down.

Damn. Im thinking RE all the time. Its very hard to get into the FE mindset, but Ill get there.

This holds true in RET too. It's difficult to understand, but so are a lot of Einstein's ideas.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

WardoggKC130FE

  • 11857
  • What website is that? MadeUpMonkeyShit.com?
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #211 on: August 17, 2008, 02:04:36 PM »
This holds true in RET too. It's difficult to understand, but so are a lot of Einstein's ideas.

Especially the ones that are inaccurate.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #212 on: August 17, 2008, 02:21:05 PM »
One of the strange consequences of relativity is that you are accelerating up, falling objects are not accelerating down.

Damn. Im thinking RE all the time. Its very hard to get into the FE mindset, but Ill get there.

This holds true in RET too. It's difficult to understand, but so are a lot of Einstein's ideas.

I know, but the point of view is different. It all depends where you are, and how you THINK you are moving..
Ooompa ooompa

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #213 on: August 17, 2008, 02:23:39 PM »
I know, but the point of view is different. It all depends where you are, and how you THINK you are moving..

That is essentially the underlying principle behind relativity. The point is that we feel the upwards acceleration, except that we misinterpret it as a downwards pull.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #214 on: August 17, 2008, 02:33:17 PM »
I know, but the point of view is different. It all depends where you are, and how you THINK you are moving..

That is essentially the underlying principle behind relativity. The point is that we feel the upwards acceleration, except that we misinterpret it as a downwards pull.

Thats my point. You cant say "No. Skydivers arent accelerating". Cause it depends. Both views are correct.
Ooompa ooompa

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #215 on: August 17, 2008, 02:40:46 PM »
Thats my point. You cant say "No. Skydivers arent accelerating". Cause it depends. Both views are correct.

Well, not really. Velocity is relative, acceleration isn't. It is technically incorrect to measure acceleration from a non-inertial (that is, accelerating) frame of reference. So to measure acceleration correctly, you would have to be in freefall, observing the accelerating object.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #216 on: August 17, 2008, 02:52:38 PM »
One of the strange consequences of relativity is that you are accelerating up, falling objects are not accelerating down.

Damn. Im thinking RE all the time. Its very hard to get into the FE mindset, but Ill get there.

This holds true in RET too. It's difficult to understand, but so are a lot of Einstein's ideas.

What you said is true only for the FET. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #217 on: August 17, 2008, 02:54:47 PM »
What you said is true only for the FET. 

Anytime you feel like moving past the year 1914 is fine by me.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #218 on: August 17, 2008, 02:57:12 PM »
Thats my point. You cant say "No. Skydivers arent accelerating". Cause it depends. Both views are correct.

Well, not really. Velocity is relative, acceleration isn't. It is technically incorrect to measure acceleration from a non-inertial (that is, accelerating) frame of reference. So to measure acceleration correctly, you would have to be in freefall, observing the accelerating object.
In the RET I could pick a FOR that is inertial, and see a person in freefall accelerating towards the earth. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #219 on: August 17, 2008, 02:57:22 PM »
Here are your Free body diagrams

The FE model:


and the RE model:


So you can see these hold true for each respective model
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #220 on: August 17, 2008, 02:59:47 PM »
Thats my point. You cant say "No. Skydivers arent accelerating". Cause it depends. Both views are correct.

Well, not really. Velocity is relative, acceleration isn't. It is technically incorrect to measure acceleration from a non-inertial (that is, accelerating) frame of reference. So to measure acceleration correctly, you would have to be in freefall, observing the accelerating object.

But in RE the earth is not accelerating. Have I missed something?
Ooompa ooompa

*

WardoggKC130FE

  • 11857
  • What website is that? MadeUpMonkeyShit.com?
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #221 on: August 17, 2008, 03:02:55 PM »
Thats my point. You cant say "No. Skydivers arent accelerating". Cause it depends. Both views are correct.

Well, not really. Velocity is relative, acceleration isn't. It is technically incorrect to measure acceleration from a non-inertial (that is, accelerating) frame of reference. So to measure acceleration correctly, you would have to be in freefall, observing the accelerating object.

But in RE the earth is not accelerating. Have I missed something?

Sometimes it is.  The transfer between apogee and perigee around the sun.  Between perigee and apogee is should be decelerating.

*

WardoggKC130FE

  • 11857
  • What website is that? MadeUpMonkeyShit.com?
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #222 on: August 17, 2008, 03:04:57 PM »
Oops thats the moon term

Earths term in relation to the sun is perihelion and aphelion.  Sorry.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #223 on: August 17, 2008, 03:07:38 PM »
In the RET I could pick a FOR that is inertial, and see a person in freefall accelerating towards the earth. 

No you couldn't. Not if you were close enough to see them at all, anyway.

Here are your Free body diagrams

The FE model:


and the RE model:


So you can see these hold true for each respective model

Okay, so assuming one is in freefall in a vacuum, the only force in the second (erroneous, but for the sake of argument I shall pretend that it is not) free body diagram is acting downwards.

Now, say the person falling is holding a hypothetical box that no force can penetrate, and inside this box is a mouse that has no idea what is going on outside it. Using your free body diagram, then, the mouse will feel a fictitious force upwards as the person is pulled down, thus proving that - if your diagram is correct - a person in freefall is in a non-inertial frame of reference. Congratulations, you just disproved Einstein!
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #224 on: August 17, 2008, 03:08:48 PM »
But in RE the earth is not accelerating. Have I missed something?
Sometimes it is.  The transfer between apogee and perigee around the sun.  Between perigee and apogee is should be decelerating.

Yes, but its not accelerating up. Up in RE is outwards.
Ooompa ooompa

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #225 on: August 17, 2008, 03:09:02 PM »
But in RE the earth is not accelerating. Have I missed something?

It is accelerating. It is accelerating outwards from its centre of mass. As I said, it is a difficult concept to get one's head around, but that's modern physics for you.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #226 on: August 17, 2008, 03:12:48 PM »
If you were in a vacuum then the diagram would look different. In that case you can use the EP because nothing changes(assuming a constant gravitational acceleration). But in the real world what I provided will prove accurate enough to verify which model is correct

And if you have a better free body diagram I would love to see it
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #227 on: August 17, 2008, 03:13:38 PM »


No you couldn't. Not if you were close enough to see them at all, anyway.

Yes I could.  




Quote
Okay, so assuming one is in freefall in a vacuum, the only force in the second (erroneous, but for the sake of argument I shall pretend that it is not) free body diagram is acting downwards.

Now, say the person falling is holding a hypothetical box that no force can penetrate, and inside this box is a mouse that has no idea what is going on outside it. Using your free body diagram, then, the mouse will feel a fictitious force upwards as the person is pulled down, thus proving that - if your diagram is correct - a person in freefall is in a non-inertial frame of reference. Congratulations, you just disproved Einstein!

A person in a space suit free falling in a vacuum will not feel a force or acceleration.  
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #228 on: August 17, 2008, 03:16:54 PM »
And if you have a better free body diagram I would love to see it

Here:



Quote
Okay, so assuming one is in freefall in a vacuum, the only force in the second (erroneous, but for the sake of argument I shall pretend that it is not) free body diagram is acting downwards.

Now, say the person falling is holding a hypothetical box that no force can penetrate, and inside this box is a mouse that has no idea what is going on outside it. Using your free body diagram, then, the mouse will feel a fictitious force upwards as the person is pulled down, thus proving that - if your diagram is correct - a person in freefall is in a non-inertial frame of reference. Congratulations, you just disproved Einstein!

A person in a space suit free falling in a vacuum will not feel a force or acceleration.   

Make up your mind.

When in freefall you are accelerating only due to gravitation. 
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #229 on: August 17, 2008, 03:19:21 PM »
And if you have a better free body diagram I would love to see it

Here:



Quote
Okay, so assuming one is in freefall in a vacuum, the only force in the second (erroneous, but for the sake of argument I shall pretend that it is not) free body diagram is acting downwards.

Now, say the person falling is holding a hypothetical box that no force can penetrate, and inside this box is a mouse that has no idea what is going on outside it. Using your free body diagram, then, the mouse will feel a fictitious force upwards as the person is pulled down, thus proving that - if your diagram is correct - a person in freefall is in a non-inertial frame of reference. Congratulations, you just disproved Einstein!

A person in a space suit free falling in a vacuum will not feel a force or acceleration.   

Make up your mind.

When in freefall you are accelerating only due to gravitation. 
Tell you what go to your roof and drop 2 different masses off of it with the same parachute and see which one hits first and tell me if your freebody diagram is accurate

and by your response I guess you have issues with the validity of F=ma ???
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #230 on: August 17, 2008, 03:22:32 PM »

A person in a space suit free falling in a vacuum will not feel a force or acceleration.   

Make up your mind.

When in freefall you are accelerating only due to gravitation. 

They can accelerate without feeling it, as there is no force involved. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #231 on: August 17, 2008, 03:24:34 PM »
Tell you what go to your roof and drop 2 different masses off of it with the same parachute and see which one hits first and tell me if your freebody diagram is accurate

If I could get onto my roof, I would. However, here is my prediction of what would happen:

F = -R
F = ma


Therefore:

a = -R / m

Thus, the upward acceleration is inversely proportional to the mass, and the larger mass will accelerate upwards away from the Earth more slowly to make contact with it first.

and by your response I guess you have issues with the validity of F=ma ???

I don't know where you got that idea.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #232 on: August 17, 2008, 03:25:30 PM »
They can accelerate without feeling it, as there is no force involved. 

A nonzero net force is the only thing that can cause acceleration. We have been through this.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #233 on: August 17, 2008, 03:26:11 PM »
Tell you what go to your roof and drop 2 different masses off of it with the same parachute and see which one hits first and tell me if your freebody diagram is accurate

If I could get onto my roof, I would. However, here is my prediction of what would happen:

F = -R
F = ma


Therefore:

a = -R / m

Thus, the upward acceleration is inversely proportional to the mass, and the larger mass will accelerate upwards away from the Earth more slowly to make contact with it first.

and by your response I guess you have issues with the validity of F=ma ???

I don't know where you got that idea.
Now where does your F=ma come from?
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #234 on: August 17, 2008, 03:26:43 PM »
They can accelerate without feeling it, as there is no force involved. 

A nonzero net force is the only thing that can cause acceleration. We have been through this.

Bent spacetime will cause acceleration. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #237 on: August 17, 2008, 03:34:38 PM »
I understand the concept of the equation but how did you pull that force out of this?

That force (F) causes an acceleration (a), and the relationship between the two is given by the constant of proportionality m.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #238 on: August 17, 2008, 03:36:24 PM »
I understand the concept of the equation but how did you pull that force out of this?

That force (F) causes an acceleration (a), and the relationship between the two is given by the constant of proportionality m.
so where is the F=ma in the freebody diagram that allows you to enter it into the equation to make that relationship?
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #239 on: August 17, 2008, 03:40:03 PM »
so where is the F=ma in the freebody diagram that allows you to enter it into the equation to make that relationship?

So now I have to declare Newton's second law of motion in every freebody diagram I draw before I can use it?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.