Looking for an intelligent argument. (Terminal Velocity)

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #180 on: August 17, 2008, 11:19:26 AM »
Nope to the "No, he is accelerating upwards." part. 

So when you are in freefall, you are both inertial and accelerating?
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #181 on: August 17, 2008, 11:25:59 AM »
Nope to the "No, he is accelerating upwards." part. 

So when you are in freefall, you are both inertial and accelerating?

When in freefall you are accelerating only due to gravitation. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2008, 11:28:17 AM »
When in freefall you are accelerating only due to gravitation. 

You didn't answer my question.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #183 on: August 17, 2008, 11:31:03 AM »
When in freefall you are accelerating only due to gravitation. 

You didn't answer my question.

Yes, for free fall only.  Me accelerating in my car is still non inertial. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #184 on: August 17, 2008, 11:35:49 AM »
Yes, for free fall only.  Me accelerating in my car is still non inertial. 

You may be interested in this.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #185 on: August 17, 2008, 11:40:04 AM »
Yes, for free fall only.  Me accelerating in my car is still non inertial. 

You may be interested in this.

I already had that open.  Now tell me where is says the acceleration is in the up direction. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #186 on: August 17, 2008, 11:45:07 AM »
I already had that open.  Now tell me where is says the acceleration is in the up direction. 

Please draw a free body diagram of all forces acting on a person in freefall.
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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #187 on: August 17, 2008, 11:50:58 AM »
I already had that open.  Now tell me where is says the acceleration is in the up direction. 

Please draw a free body diagram of all forces acting on a person in freefall.
mg-R
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #188 on: August 17, 2008, 11:56:06 AM »
mg-R

That is not a free body diagram.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #189 on: August 17, 2008, 12:06:22 PM »
I already had that open.  Now tell me where is says the acceleration is in the up direction. 

Please draw a free body diagram of all forces acting on a person in freefall.

There are no forces acting on someone in free fall(in a vacuum). 


Are you claiming there are forces? 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:11:44 PM by sokarul »
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #190 on: August 17, 2008, 12:18:40 PM »
Are you claiming there are forces? 

No, you are.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #191 on: August 17, 2008, 12:19:30 PM »
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #192 on: August 17, 2008, 12:30:09 PM »
Nope, never did. 

How can there be acceleration without a force?
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #193 on: August 17, 2008, 12:31:35 PM »
Nope, never did. 

How can there be acceleration without a force?
Einstein answers this question the best.  I will simply say bent spacetime. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #194 on: August 17, 2008, 12:37:17 PM »
Einstein answers this question the best.  I will simply say bent spacetime. 

Einstein never said there could be acceleration with no force.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #195 on: August 17, 2008, 12:39:33 PM »
Einstein answers this question the best.  I will simply say bent spacetime. 

Einstein never said there could be acceleration with no force.

WHAT?  Please learn GR. 
Quote
In general relativity, the effects of gravitation are ascribed to spacetime curvature instead of a force.

Now please leave and go research.
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #196 on: August 17, 2008, 12:47:34 PM »
Einstein never said there could be acceleration with no force.

WHAT?  Please learn GR. 
Quote
In general relativity, the effects of gravitation are ascribed to spacetime curvature instead of a force.

Now please leave and go research.

Please point out where the word "acceleration" appears in that quote, my clumsy vision seems to have missed it.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #197 on: August 17, 2008, 12:48:19 PM »
Einstein never said there could be acceleration with no force.

WHAT?  Please learn GR. 
Quote
In general relativity, the effects of gravitation are ascribed to spacetime curvature instead of a force.

Now please leave and go research.

Please point out where the word "acceleration" appears in that quote, my clumsy vision seems to have missed it.

There.  Do I need to point out what the effects of gravitation are? 
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #198 on: August 17, 2008, 12:50:12 PM »
There.  Do I need to point out what the effects of gravitation are? 

I think it more likely that you need them pointed out to you.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #199 on: August 17, 2008, 12:52:57 PM »
There.  Do I need to point out what the effects of gravitation are? 

I think it more likely that you need them pointed out to you.

One of the effects of gravitation is acceleration. 
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #200 on: August 17, 2008, 12:55:37 PM »
One of the effects of gravitation is acceleration. 

No it isn't.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #201 on: August 17, 2008, 12:57:44 PM »
One of the effects of gravitation is acceleration. 

No it isn't.

umm wow.  I'm not sure if I even know what to say to this.  How is acceleration not an effect from gravitation? 
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #202 on: August 17, 2008, 01:01:32 PM »
umm wow.  I'm not sure if I even know what to say to this.  How is acceleration not an effect from gravitation? 

Bodies in freefall do not accelerate.
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Dr Matrix

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #203 on: August 17, 2008, 01:02:06 PM »
It may be worth stating if we're dealing with point-like observers or extended objects at this point - remember that every point observer sees locally flat (Minkowski) spacetime...

Also - all forces/accelerations/velocities/masses have to be measured relative to something - I think one of the problems you guys are having is that the problem is not well defined enough.  State a specific example (neurtron orbiting the Earth - basically pointlike observer, or Moon/Earth - perturbative, extended observer) and go from there.
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #204 on: August 17, 2008, 01:05:48 PM »
umm wow.  I'm not sure if I even know what to say to this.  How is acceleration not an effect from gravitation? 

Bodies in freefall do not accelerate.

How would a sky diver hit the ground if he never accelerated?

It may be worth stating if we're dealing with point-like observers or extended objects at this point - remember that every point observer sees locally flat (Minkowski) spacetime...

Also - all forces/accelerations/velocities/masses have to be measured relative to something - I think one of the problems you guys are having is that the problem is not well defined enough.  State a specific example (neurtron orbiting the Earth - basically pointlike observer, or Moon/Earth - perturbative, extended observer) and go from there.

I know  what I am talking about, he does not.  As I sated before, I have seen SR and some GR in college. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 01:08:10 PM by sokarul »
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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #205 on: August 17, 2008, 01:08:51 PM »
Bodies in freefall do not accelerate.
This is what I am talking about with the engineer it is a major testable flaw in the FE model
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sokarul

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #206 on: August 17, 2008, 01:11:22 PM »
Bodies in freefall do not accelerate.
This is what I am talking about with the engineer it is a major testable flaw in the FE model


Bodies in free fall accelerate in both the RET and the FET.(assuming not in a vacuum)

There was a thread where skydivers came up.  Map out the acceleration of a skydiver in the FE and RE and you will see. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 01:21:35 PM by sokarul »
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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #207 on: August 17, 2008, 01:18:26 PM »
umm wow.  I'm not sure if I even know what to say to this.  How is acceleration not an effect from gravitation? 

Bodies in freefall do not accelerate.

You seem very smart robosteve. Thats why my brain is melting right now.

Am I missintepretating 'freefall'? As in skydiver (before counteracted by airresistance)? As in throwing a ball up and then catches it when it comes back?

I know youre going to give a challenged answer.
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #208 on: August 17, 2008, 01:25:28 PM »
How would a sky diver hit the ground if he never accelerated?

The ground accelerates up to meet the skydiver.

I know  what I am talking about, he does not.  As I sated before, I have seen SR and some GR in college. 

No amount of education will get those cogs in your head spinning.

Bodies in freefall do not accelerate.
This is what I am talking about with the engineer it is a major testable flaw in the FE model

No it isn't. It holds true for both models.

Bodies in free fall accelerate in both the RET and the FET.(assuming not in a vacuum)

There was a thread where skydivers came up.  Map out the acceleration of a skydiver in the FE and RE and you will see. 

Of course if they aren't in a vacuum, they will accelerate due to friction (unless the medium that they are in is moving at the same velocity).

You seem very smart robosteve. Thats why my brain is melting right now.

Am I missintepretating 'freefall'? As in skydiver (before counteracted by airresistance)? As in throwing a ball up and then catches it when it comes back?

I know youre going to give a challenged answer.

You have the correct interpretation of freefall. One of the strange consequences of relativity is that you are accelerating up, falling objects are not accelerating down.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Looking for an intelligent argument.
« Reply #209 on: August 17, 2008, 02:01:39 PM »
One of the strange consequences of relativity is that you are accelerating up, falling objects are not accelerating down.

Damn. Im thinking RE all the time. Its very hard to get into the FE mindset, but Ill get there.
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