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Physics, where's the force?

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JebusCripes

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2008, 07:17:00 PM »
Okay, so can somebody explain to me what "proper acceleration" is and how it differs between FoRs, inertial or non-inertial (I really wouldn't know if they made a difference lol)
Explain it to me the same way you would to anyone who hasn't studied physics past the twelfth grade, FE or RE.  Honestly I'm just curious if both sides will give me similar explanations.
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2008, 07:17:41 PM »
The only constant in that equation is c.
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2008, 07:20:09 PM »
Proper is what you are personally experiencing in your own FoR.  Due to relativistic effects the time, acceleration, what have you, that are observed in a different FoR can change unless they are invariant.
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cbarnett97

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2008, 07:21:04 PM »
Very basic:

Proper acceleration is the acceleration you feel ie: you step on the gas in your car but the acceleration that another person measures that is not in the car may not be the same measurement.

Now this is taking place at very high speeds (close to the speed of light, denoted by "c")

To relate to FE theory the earth is experiencing an acceleration of 9.8m/s2 but a person outside of the earth would not measure that acceleration
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cbarnett97

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2008, 07:21:46 PM »
Quote from: Robbyj on August 15, 2008, 07:17:41 PM
The only constant in that equation is c.
Not according to theengineer v is also a constant
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JebusCripes

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2008, 07:29:03 PM »
What exactly does v symbolize if TheEngineer is saying it equals 9.8m/s.  9.8 starting from what point, exactly?  Would v not change if we started with a different value for u?  I've got to assume v increases by t 9.8, then.  So now I'm confused about that 1uv part.  What's the 1 for?
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Robbyj

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Re: My equation and SR
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2008, 07:29:42 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 10:24:01 AM
v is 9.8m/s (due to the earth accelerating at 9.8m/s^2 for one second

This is him picking an arbitrary point in time to make the calculation easier.  You can choose any moment in time you wish.  By the way, i'm not trying to defend Engy, he can do that himself.  I'm just stating what he probably meant.
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Quote from: Raist on January 22, 2009, 09:27:08 PM
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2008, 07:34:14 PM »
Quote from: JebusCripes on August 15, 2008, 07:29:03 PM
What exactly does v symbolize if TheEngineer is saying it equals 9.8m/s. 
velocity
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  Would v not change if we started with a different value for u? 
yes
Quote
So now I'm confused about that 1uv part.  What's the 1 for?
As far as derivation of the equation, you should find a reliable source like a book to explain it.
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Quote from: Raist on January 22, 2009, 09:27:08 PM
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MessiahOfFire

Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2008, 07:39:00 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 06:01:59 PM
Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 15, 2008, 04:12:31 PM
I know what proper is perfectly fine, you are the one making the claim that proper acceleration will be the same for all observers
I have not claimed that at all.  Not even once.  You are the one having the problem understanding what proper means.

Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 15, 2008, 04:47:24 PM
That is what I am trying to show, that when it comes down to it he does not as much as people give him credit for
And in the end, all you are accomplishing is making yourself out to be an idiot.  Talk about a plan blowing up in your face...

You're a dick... Yes, keep doing what you do because we all know you are only trying to raise your post count. Grow up.

EDIT: This is to the engineer (BTW).
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cbarnett97

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Re: My equation and SR
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2008, 07:41:02 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 10:24:01 AM
w=(u+v)/(1+uv/c^2)
Where u is the earth's current velocity, v is 9.8m/s (due to the earth accelerating at 9.8m/s^2 for one second), c is the speed of light, and w is the new velocity.

Start at u=0 and let me know how long it takes to reach the speed of light.
Looks like he is saying v=9.8m/s, the only thing that should change according to him is u and that is based upon w
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Fletch

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2008, 07:46:02 PM »
cbarnett, if the earth is accelerating at 9.8ms/s, how long will it take until we reach the speed of light?
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cbarnett97

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2008, 07:48:40 PM »
Quote from: Fletch on August 15, 2008, 07:46:02 PM
cbarnett, if the earth is accelerating at 9.8ms/s, how long will it take until we reach the speed of light?
it will never reach the speed of light, if you solve the equation properly you will find that the acceleration does not remain constant
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2008, 08:00:09 PM »
Along with that, no matter how long we accelerate, light will always be traveling 300,000,000 m/s faster than us.
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TheEngineer

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Re: My equation and SR
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2008, 08:16:16 PM »
Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 15, 2008, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 10:24:01 AM
w=(u+v)/(1+uv/c^2)
Where u is the earth's current velocity, v is 9.8m/s (due to the earth accelerating at 9.8m/s^2 for one second), c is the speed of light, and w is the new velocity.

Start at u=0 and let me know how long it takes to reach the speed of light.
Looks like he is saying v=9.8m/s, the only thing that should change according to him is u and that is based upon w
That is what I am saying.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2008, 08:17:33 PM »
Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 15, 2008, 06:31:03 PM
So how about you clearly answer the question then, for an observer not on the earth what value for acceleration should they use to calculate the velocity of the earth from their FoR
To find the velocity of the FE?  9.8m/s^2.  But I've said that already.
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cbarnett97

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Re: My equation and SR
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2008, 08:18:34 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 08:16:16 PM
Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 15, 2008, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 10:24:01 AM
w=(u+v)/(1+uv/c^2)
Where u is the earth's current velocity, v is 9.8m/s (due to the earth accelerating at 9.8m/s^2 for one second), c is the speed of light, and w is the new velocity.

Start at u=0 and let me know how long it takes to reach the speed of light.
Looks like he is saying v=9.8m/s, the only thing that should change according to him is u and that is based upon w
That is what I am saying.
so what if I want to use any inertial FoR?
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TheEngineer

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2008, 08:20:42 PM »
Go right on ahead.
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cbarnett97

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2008, 08:22:39 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 08:20:42 PM
Go right on ahead.
Same exact equation then?
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JebusCripes

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2008, 08:35:47 PM »
So how does light accelerate at the same rate as us?  In order for it to constantly be 300,000,000m/s faster than us with our ever-increasing velocity, naturally light would need to accelerate at 9.8m/s2?  Yet a = (V2 - V1) / t.  If c is a constant, how does light maintain a constant speed relative to us when our own speed is constantly increasing?  By your own admission, even light can not move faster than the speed of light.  I can only imagine light seeming to move slower, and along with that, the Flat Earth's "gravity" (or whatever you call your equivalent) decreasing, as we can never reach the speed of light.  My scale isn't showing reduced weight, though, nor do I seem to be experiencing slowing time.  I guess what I'm really looking for is an explanation to perceived weight and light, keeping in mind that relative to us, a is constant, and in any inertial frame of reference V is aymptotal to c, translating to ever decreasing acceleration.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 08:39:16 PM by JebusCripes »
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2008, 08:40:56 PM »
Quote from: JebusCripes on August 15, 2008, 08:35:47 PM
My scale isn't showing reduced weight, though, nor do I seem to be experiencing slowing time.

That's because in your FoR it doesn't change.
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2008, 08:49:08 PM »
Quote from: JebusCripes on August 15, 2008, 08:35:47 PM
If c is a constant, how does light maintain a constant speed relative to us when our own speed is constantly increasing?  

Accelerating causes our local space-time to become skewed relative to an outside observer.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 08:51:58 PM by Robbyj »
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JebusCripes

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2008, 08:53:18 PM »
So you're saying that our space-time gets warped.  Like the space expanding between us is angled or something?  The interpretation I'm coming up with now is that our vector starts shifting and the y-component of our acceleration decreases with time.  I've got to assume that's wrong though, as we're supposed to be accelerating upward.  Unless it's that angle that makes it look like we're still accelerating upwards.  But once again, that's gotta be wrong because we'd be experiencing a pull off to the side.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 08:58:30 PM by JebusCripes »
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2008, 09:00:18 PM »
Quote from: JebusCripes on August 15, 2008, 08:53:18 PM
So you're saying that our space-time gets warped.  Like the space expanding between us is angled or something?  The interpretation I'm coming up with now is that our vector starts shifting and the y-component of our acceleration decreases with time.  I've got to assume that's wrong though, as we're supposed to be accelerating upward.

This isn't FET, this is relativity, so if you think it is wrong take it up with Einstein.  The direction "upward" is a relative term (this may sound like a cop out, but I promise it isn't).  In light cone diagrams the x,y, and z axis are combined into one so direction is irelevant.
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JebusCripes

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2008, 09:01:59 PM »
I meant that my interpretation must have been wrong.  Was it?

PS: Nice quote on the bottom, there.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:12:10 PM by JebusCripes »
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TheEngineer

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2008, 09:26:55 PM »
Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 15, 2008, 08:22:39 PM
Same exact equation then?
Uh, yea.    ???
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cbarnett97

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2008, 09:29:01 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 09:26:55 PM
Quote from: cbarnett97 on August 15, 2008, 08:22:39 PM
Same exact equation then?
Uh, yea.    ???
I wonder why particle physics is considered difficult then
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TheEngineer

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2008, 09:33:04 PM »
I fail to see why this is such a difficult thing for you to understand.  The proper acceleration is 9.8m/s^2.  For everyone.
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cbarnett97

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2008, 09:43:42 PM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on August 15, 2008, 09:33:04 PM
I fail to see why this is such a difficult thing for you to understand.  The proper acceleration is 9.8m/s^2.  For everyone.
Uh, no
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TheEngineer

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2008, 09:47:59 PM »
Really?  How so? 

Let me ask you this:

A person traveling at .5c will see the watch on his wrist tick at what speed:  Normal, slow or fast?
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Robbyj

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Re: Physics, where's the force?
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2008, 10:23:41 PM »
Quote from: JebusCripes on August 15, 2008, 09:01:59 PM
I meant that my interpretation must have been wrong.  Was it?
This might help.

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/sr/paradox.html
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