Flat Earth map

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GravitySlave

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  • I think the Earth is
Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2008, 10:36:38 PM »
Agreed.

I liken this site to a nice debate amongst different religions...you may never change their beliefs, but you may learn a thing or 2 in the process.  Well, nice part of the time...sometimes it get's downright nasty from what I've read in other threads.  But hey, what do you expect when people have such strong convictions.
The gravitation influence of the stars is just less over the North Pole than it is over other areas, that's all.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2008, 10:37:04 PM »
not only sizes and distance but direction.  A strait path (ie shortest distance over the surface/great circle) from So Cal to Japan dosn't not take you over Alaska, I can promise you that.  In fact you won't come within 1000 miles of Alaska.

Distance only digs into the masive problem with FE.  Anyone who does any sort of navigation can clearly see this.  The basic principles of navigation them selves are based on a sphere.  No one would have ever found the the Americas from europe if they had used real world navigation on a spherical earth.

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Robbyj

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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2008, 10:40:20 PM »
There's a fun thread you might like airwing.  Do a search for jet streams.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2008, 10:42:48 PM »
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No one would have ever found the the Americas from europe if they had used real world navigation on a spherical earth.

North is Hubward. South is Rimward. East is Turnwise. And West is Widdershins.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2008, 10:43:32 PM »
There's a fun thread you might like airwing.  Do a search for jet streams.

Or any of the numerous threads that discuss air travel in the southern hemisphere.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2008, 10:47:32 PM »
...Distance only digs into the masive problem with FE.  Anyone who does any sort of navigation can clearly see this.  The basic principles of navigation them selves are based on a sphere.  No one would have ever found the the Americas from europe if they had used real world navigation on a spherical earth.

Not necessarily.

Before the advent of a reliable method for determining longitude, many vessels would sail to a latitude even with their destination, sail due east or west, and then try and determine their exact position upon landfall.  This included Columbus and Magellan.

This works easiest in the northern hemisphere with the North Star (Polaris) as a guide.  If you are using a magnetic compass and maintain a constant altitude of Polaris, it works identically in both FE and RE theories.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2008, 10:53:15 PM »
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Before the advent of a reliable method for determining longitude, many vessels would sail to a latitude even with their destination, sail due east or west, and then try and determine their exact position upon landfall.  This included Columbus and Magellan.

Traveling Westwards from Europe will also get you to the Americas in the FE model. On both and RE and FE both East and West are curved.

Thought Experiment: You are on the top of the RE or FE. You are 15 feet from the point of magnetic North and you wish to travel Eastwards continuously. Where does your path take you?

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2008, 10:59:10 PM »
Traveling Westwards from Europe will also get you to the Americas in the FE model. On both and RE and FE both East and West are curved.

Isn't that what I said??!?


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Thought Experiment: You are on the top of the RE or FE. You are 15 feet from the point of magnetic North and you wish to travel Eastwards continuously. Where does your path take you?

It would depend on you relative location to the magnetic pole.  If you were southeast of the magnetic pole, an easterly course based on a magnetic compass would give you a northeasterly course based on a gyro compass.  This track would create a circle of equal distance around the magnetic pole (assuming you are steering using the magnetic compass), but the gyro compass would show your heading passing through north, to west, to south, etc as you followed the track.

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Robbyj

  • Flat Earth Editor
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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2008, 11:00:22 PM »
OOh, ooh, 95 foot circle.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2008, 11:07:17 PM »
OOh, ooh, 95 foot circle.

Hey it wasn't my thought experiment, I just gave the results.

The results are the same in both FE and RE versions of navigation.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2008, 11:08:55 PM »

Not necessarily.

Before the advent of a reliable method for determining longitude, many vessels would sail to a latitude even with their destination, sail due east or west, and then try and determine their exact position upon landfall.  This included Columbus and Magellan.

This works easiest in the northern hemisphere with the North Star (Polaris) as a guide.  If you are using a magnetic compass and maintain a constant altitude of Polaris, it works identically in both FE and RE theories.

Your right, but the magnetic compas, use of celestial nav all required a spherical earth in the method they were used.  The entire premise of how they function was on a sphere.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2008, 11:12:27 PM »
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Before the advent of a reliable method for determining longitude, many vessels would sail to a latitude even with their destination, sail due east or west, and then try and determine their exact position upon landfall.  This included Columbus and Magellan.

Traveling Westwards from Europe will also get you to the Americas in the FE model. On both and RE and FE both East and West are curved.

Thought Experiment: You are on the top of the RE or FE. You are 15 feet from the point of magnetic North and you wish to travel Eastwards continuously. Where does your path take you?

I'm going to use this as the basis of how you have no idea of how navigation really works.  "Westward" is not a very acurite model of navigaton.  If you are 1 degree of leaving california for hawaii...you will miss it by a little over 400 miles...  If you move 1 heading from a starting point (other than 270 or 090 from the equator) you will end up at the north or south equator.  This is a rhumb line.  A great circle requires a constant and steady course change in order to move from point a to b in the shortest distance.  A great circle is not possible on a FE, let alone lines of longitude...

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2008, 11:14:06 PM »
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Before the advent of a reliable method for determining longitude, many vessels would sail to a latitude even with their destination, sail due east or west, and then try and determine their exact position upon landfall.  This included Columbus and Magellan.

Traveling Westwards from Europe will also get you to the Americas in the FE model. On both and RE and FE both East and West are curved.

Thought Experiment: You are on the top of the RE or FE. You are 15 feet from the point of magnetic North and you wish to travel Eastwards continuously. Where does your path take you?

I'm going to use this as the basis of how you have no idea of how navigation really works.  "Westward" or "Eastward is not a direction of navigation.  If you are 1 degree of leaving california for hawaii...you will miss it by a little over 400 miles...  If you move the heading from a starting point (other than 270 or 090 from the equator) you will end up at the north or south equator.  This is a rhumb line.  A great circle requires a constant and steady course change in order to move from point a to b in the shortest distance.  And this is what all aircraft and boats do a majority of the time.  A great circle is not possible on a FE, let alone lines of longitude...

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17732
Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2008, 12:40:27 AM »
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Your right, but the magnetic compas, use of celestial nav all required a spherical earth in the method they were used.  The entire premise of how they function was on a sphere.

Nope.

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A great circle is not possible on a FE,

Actually, it is.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za47.htm

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2008, 02:19:28 AM »
...A great circle requires a constant and steady course change in order to move from point a to b in the shortest distance.  A great circle is not possible on a FE, let alone lines of longitude...

Great Circle courses are possible on a FE model, just as they are in RE.  They would be even more important in southern hemisphere sailing because of the huge errors that would be present in rhumb line courses on a FE.

Longitude lines are possible on FE, but they aren't the same as on RE.  South of the equator they would be divergent.  North of the equator, there would be differences in the distance per degree for comparable latitudes, but these errors are not as significant as the errors that are created by assuming they diverge.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #105 on: August 15, 2008, 02:58:20 PM »
Great circle does not work in the Southern Hemisphere in FET.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2008, 01:52:25 AM »
Great circle does not work in the Southern Hemisphere in FET.

A great circle course will work in a FE southern hemisphere.  The difference will be in where your vertex will be.  Whereas a RE great circle in the southern hemisphere has the vertex toward the south pole (shorter distance), the vertex of a FE southern hemisphere great circle will be toward the equator for the same reason.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2008, 09:06:12 AM »
Agreed.  The problem is if you go to the southern hemisphere and try to apply the FE great circle it won't work.  Because the earth is not flat.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2008, 10:34:22 AM »
Agreed.  The problem is if you go to the southern hemisphere and try to apply the FE great circle it won't work.  Because the earth is not flat.

I agree.  Amazing isn't it?  According to FE theory I shouldn't have been able to go between Trinidad and Cape Town using the formulas that I did.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #109 on: August 16, 2008, 10:39:32 AM »
If only you spent the time it took you to create this fantasy map on reading and understanding science. You'd be better off. But that's hard so you're probably better off living in your own little world by trying to explain something that is wrong and creating facts to fit your theory rather than adjusting you're theory to match known facts.

Did I mention you are a complete fucking idiot?

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sokarul

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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #110 on: August 16, 2008, 01:30:26 PM »
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Your right, but the magnetic compas, use of celestial nav all required a spherical earth in the method they were used.  The entire premise of how they function was on a sphere.

Nope.

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A great circle is not possible on a FE,

Actually, it is.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za47.htm

Every argument in ENAG can be disproved, including that one.  A straight line is not made up of circles as he says it is.   
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2008, 01:24:04 AM »
Every argument in ENAG can be disproved, including that one.  A straight line is not made up of circles as he says it is.   

Although most of the "proofs" in ENaG are easily proved wrong, this one is actually doable.  Whether you are on RE or FE, if you set the autopilot on a ship on a course of 090, and have open water for the entire route (that part is tough), you could go all of the way around the world.  If you plotted your track line on a northern polar projection (FE's only projection) you would see it as a circle.  On a mercator projection, your track line would be a straight line leading from one edge of the chart to the other.

The difference would be in the actual distance traveled.  The farther away from the North Pole you made your trip, the more severe the differences would be.

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trig

  • 2240
Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #112 on: August 17, 2008, 07:29:21 AM »
The creation of a map is a big step forward for the Flat Earth Society. It is an acknowledgment of the problems of the "UN flag map", it addresses many of the known errors of it, and most importantly, it puts a verifiable diagram on the table.

On the other hand, many problems become apparent as soon as you commit to an actual diagram, and I am not talking about small details like forgetting to paste Hawaii in, or small errors in the scale of some continents.

Lets start with the temperature of the oceans. You are implying that the ocean is warmer at a latitude of 90 degrees south than it is in the center of Antarctica. How can that be?

You still have no explanation to the observed location of the constellations on the Southern sky, or why it is the same in all the Southern continents. And I am not talking about the Southern Cross only.

The flight distances from South America to Australia are still off by much more than 50%.

And all the centuries of experience in navigation on both hemispheres contradicts your map. The distance corresponding to one degree of longitude is wrong for almost all latitudes in your map. Presumably, it is right only at the North Pole and at the Equator, and this is easily verifiable for anyone that lives at any other latitude.

So, please take notice, making a map is not lazy, not dumb, but the beggining of the end of insanity.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #113 on: August 17, 2008, 10:59:12 AM »
...Lets start with the temperature of the oceans. You are implying that the ocean is warmer at a latitude of 90 degrees south than it is in the center of Antarctica. How can that be?

Not to mention the fact that the northern most portions of Antarctica are located in the tropics, but still record temperatures below 0 F for a significant portion of the year.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #114 on: August 17, 2008, 02:29:58 PM »
This thread is only about proving that Earth is round. Boring..
Ooompa ooompa

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #115 on: August 17, 2008, 11:13:16 PM »
This thread is only about proving that Earth is round. Boring..

No, he asked for critique so he could correct the errors of his map.  We are pointing out where is map doesn't match observed reality.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #116 on: August 18, 2008, 10:02:57 AM »


Although most of the "proofs" in ENaG are easily proved wrong, this one is actually doable.  Whether you are on RE or FE, if you set the autopilot on a ship on a course of 090, and have open water for the entire route (that part is tough), you could go all of the way around the world.  If you plotted your track line on a northern polar projection (FE's only projection) you would see it as a circle.  On a mercator projection, your track line would be a straight line leading from one edge of the chart to the other.

The difference would be in the actual distance traveled.  The farther away from the North Pole you made your trip, the more severe the differences would be.
[/quote]

If you plot a course of 090 anywhere your not going to fly a perfect circle around the earth.  Assuming you have the ability to fly a True Course of 090 and acount for magnetic variation (which is as much as 30 degrees in some places) the fact that lines of longitude convergE will slowly pull you north more and more and more (asuming your in the northern hemisphere).  You will corkscrew around the earth and never end up the same place you started.  Not even CLOSE.  Without a large navigation chart I can't actualy show this.  This is called a rhumb line.  Maybe you can find a representation on google.

And I'm not sure how you can say a great circle course is possible on a flat earth map.  A great circle is a course on a sphere.  Drawing a strait line on the surface of a FE model is not a great circle course, it is a strait line.

Simply enough if you look in the back of the magazines in all the comercial airlines it shows curved flight paths.  These are great circle courses, the curve apears because of the style of map/chart that is used.

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #117 on: August 18, 2008, 10:06:57 AM »
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Your right, but the magnetic compas, use of celestial nav all required a spherical earth in the method they were used.  The entire premise of how they function was on a sphere.

Nope.

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A great circle is not possible on a FE,

Actually, it is.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za47.htm

your author here has never navigated any further than from his couch to his bathroom in his life if he thinks any of that is actually true.  When you fly 2500 miles across the water with no visual refrence and no GPS, using only gyroscopic tools, magnetic compases, and charts and can fly directly to an island about 2 miles long (Kwajalien Atoll) I'm goan stick with those rules.  If I tried to follow his, we'd run out of gas and end up having to test if a KC-130 floats.....

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #118 on: August 18, 2008, 10:13:59 AM »
your author here has never navigated any further than from his couch to his bathroom in his life if he thinks any of that is actually true.  When you fly 2500 miles across the water with no visual refrence and no GPS, using only gyroscopic tools, magnetic compases, and charts and can fly directly to an island about 2 miles long (Kwajalien Atoll) I'm goan stick with those rules.  If I tried to follow his, we'd run out of gas and end up having to test if a KC-130 floats.....

Dude I needed your help over on this thread...

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22288.20

Re: Flat Earth map
« Reply #119 on: August 18, 2008, 11:05:29 AM »
If you plot a course of 090 anywhere your not going to fly a perfect circle around the earth.  Assuming you have the ability to fly a True Course of 090 and acount for magnetic variation (which is as much as 30 degrees in some places) the fact that lines of longitude convergE will slowly pull you north more and more and more (asuming your in the northern hemisphere).  You will corkscrew around the earth and never end up the same place you started.  Not even CLOSE.  Without a large navigation chart I can't actualy show this.  This is called a rhumb line.  Maybe you can find a representation on google.

I don't know about air navigation, but on a ship, if I make good a course of 090 (which is always a true heading or gyro heading) I will follow a course along whatever line of latitude I happen to be on.  Of course, if I just point the ship at 090, I will almost never make good that course because of the effects of wind, current and gyro error.


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And I'm not sure how you can say a great circle course is possible on a flat earth map.  A great circle is a course on a sphere.  Drawing a strait line on the surface of a FE model is not a great circle course, it is a strait line.

The math to calculate the courses and distances for a trackline between two points on FE would be similar to that on RE.  If you translate the straight line from the polar projection onto a mercator chart, it will make a great circle-like track on the chart.


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Simply enough if you look in the back of the magazines in all the comercial airlines it shows curved flight paths.  These are great circle courses, the curve apears because of the style of map/chart that is used.

The same if you look at the International Maritime Organization's Ships Routing charts that give recommended tracks between different ports.