How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2008, 10:51:57 PM »
If these look different to you perhaps you're not looking at the same thing I am. The Chilean picture spans about 3 hours of Right Ascension while the other spans only 1. For example, in the Chilean one the dark blotch just to the right of center is called "the coal sack", while in the Australian picture you can see only a part of "the coal sack".

The 4 brightest stars in the Australian pic are the southern cross. But in the Chilean pic, there are 2 brighter stars in the field of view that are not part of the southern cross.


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Tom Bishop

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2008, 10:59:50 PM »
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If these look different to you perhaps you're not looking at the same thing I am. The Chilean picture spans about 3 hours of Right Ascension while the other spans only 1. For example, in the Chilean one the dark blotch just to the right of center is called "the coal sack", while in the Australian picture you can see only a part of "the coal sack".

I was right in the middle of modifying my post when you wrote that, but you're right. The Southern Cross can be seen from both South America and Australia.

However, it is my contention that The Southern Cross (also known as the Southern Crux) is really just one of the constellations on the outer edge of the Northern gear which rotates over South America, Africa and Australia.

The Southern Cross can be seen from latitudes as high as Hawaii, which means that the crux cannot be as close to the southern celestial center as your star maps indicate. Hawaii is facing in an entirely different northern direction in the RE model.

Here's the Southern Cross as seen from the Hawaiian island Mauna Loa: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020425.html
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 11:05:26 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2008, 11:15:19 PM »
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i'm not sure where you see inconsistence there - when flying between timezones at night in the southern hemisphere, the southern constellations are consistently in view, always to the south, yet rotating by a degree that would be consistent with ones observation rotating about a globe.

Do you have any evidence for this absurd claim of conducting detailed astronomy out of a moving airplane's horizontal window?

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sokarul

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2008, 11:32:59 PM »
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If these look different to you perhaps you're not looking at the same thing I am. The Chilean picture spans about 3 hours of Right Ascension while the other spans only 1. For example, in the Chilean one the dark blotch just to the right of center is called "the coal sack", while in the Australian picture you can see only a part of "the coal sack".

I was right in the middle of modifying my post when you wrote that, but you're right. The Southern Cross can be seen from both South America and Australia.

However, it is my contention that The Southern Cross (also known as the Southern Crux) is really just one of the constellations on the outer edge of the Northern gear which rotates over South America, Africa and Australia.

The Southern Cross can be seen from latitudes as high as Hawaii, which means that the crux cannot be as close to the southern celestial center as your star maps indicate. Hawaii is facing in an entirely different northern direction in the RE model.

Here's the Southern Cross as seen from the Hawaiian island Mauna Loa: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020425.html
Since when was Mauna Loa an island of Hawaii? 
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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2008, 11:38:21 PM »
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the southern constellations are consistently visible from all points in the southern hemisphere,

How could the Southern Hemisphere constellations be visible at once from Australia, South America, and Africa at once when those locations don't all experience night simultaneously?

First of all, not all the stars visible from the southern hemisphere would be visible, but many of them. Since the earth is rotating around its axis, or the south pole, all the stars in the southern hemisphere which are high up in the sky, so they would seem to go in circles. This means that when one constellation is seen in Australia, it can also be seen at the same time in southern America, but here, it would appear upside down. Here's a picture to illustrate what I am trying to explain:


Here's the Southern Cross as seen from the Hawaiian island Mauna Loa: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020425.html

EDIT: NASA?!? THAT IS BLASHPEMY! :P
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 11:41:26 PM by Christopher »

Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2008, 11:50:04 PM »
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If these look different to you perhaps you're not looking at the same thing I am. The Chilean picture spans about 3 hours of Right Ascension while the other spans only 1. For example, in the Chilean one the dark blotch just to the right of center is called "the coal sack", while in the Australian picture you can see only a part of "the coal sack".

I was right in the middle of modifying my post when you wrote that, but you're right. The Southern Cross can be seen from both South America and Australia.

However, it is my contention that The Southern Cross (also known as the Southern Crux) is really just one of the constellations on the outer edge of the Northern gear which rotates over South America, Africa and Australia.

The Southern Cross can be seen from latitudes as high as Hawaii, which means that the crux cannot be as close to the southern celestial center as your star maps indicate. Hawaii is facing in an entirely different northern direction in the RE model.

Here's the Southern Cross as seen from the Hawaiian island Mauna Loa: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020425.html
from over 13,000ft?
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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2008, 11:56:07 PM »
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i'm not sure where you see inconsistence there - when flying between timezones at night in the southern hemisphere, the southern constellations are consistently in view, always to the south, yet rotating by a degree that would be consistent with ones observation rotating about a globe.

Do you have any evidence for this absurd claim of conducting detailed astronomy out of a moving airplane's horizontal window?
I don't they were claiming they conducted detailed astrononmy, just that they could see the southern cross consistently as they flew between continents.

The problem with claiming the Southern Cross is now on the Northern Gear is that it would be spinning in the wrong direction as viewed by those in the southern hemisphere.
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Of course it doesn't make sense, it's Tom Bishop's answer.

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Parsifal

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2008, 11:59:51 PM »
Since when was Mauna Loa an island of Hawaii? 

Sig'd. Yes, I know that my sig changes on a daily basis, but this was just too good not to sig.
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Robbyj

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2008, 12:17:42 AM »
Since when was Mauna Loa an island of Hawaii? 

Sig'd. Yes, I know that my sig changes on a daily basis, but this was just too good not to sig.

Mauna Loa is a volcano, not an island.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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Parsifal

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2008, 12:36:03 AM »
Mauna Loa is a volcano, not an island.

I stand corrected. Sig reverted.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2008, 02:31:38 AM »
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If these look different to you perhaps you're not looking at the same thing I am. The Chilean picture spans about 3 hours of Right Ascension while the other spans only 1. For example, in the Chilean one the dark blotch just to the right of center is called "the coal sack", while in the Australian picture you can see only a part of "the coal sack".

I was right in the middle of modifying my post when you wrote that, but you're right. The Southern Cross can be seen from both South America and Australia.

However, it is my contention that The Southern Cross (also known as the Southern Crux) is really just one of the constellations on the outer edge of the Northern gear which rotates over South America, Africa and Australia.

The Southern Cross can be seen from latitudes as high as Hawaii, which means that the crux cannot be as close to the southern celestial center as your star maps indicate. Hawaii is facing in an entirely different northern direction in the RE model.

Here's the Southern Cross as seen from the Hawaiian island Mauna Loa: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020425.html

quite glad this thread above most others is maintaining civility :)

as far as the southern cross being on a gear, it rotates about a point only a few degrees from it's center, while the center of rotation in the gear model is thousands of miles away, over the north pole, in fact as illustrated in any simply reproducible long exposure night shot of the southern sky, it ALL rotates about the apparent south pole.

and yes, indeed the crux is visible from points in the northern hemisphere, but not all year round, as the planet appears to rotate on a tilted axis. also, the real center of the southern sky is between the pointers and the crux, it's not the crux itself.

to your other post, i claimed no detailed astronomy, simply gazing out the window of the plane, listening to my walkman to pass the time, as hundreds of travelers do each day. i always try to spot the southern cross in the night sky, reminds me of home when i'm abroad.

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sokarul

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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2008, 09:00:33 AM »
Mauna Loa is a volcano, not an island.

I stand corrected. Sig reverted.
Its like I looked it up or something before I posted. Apparently I'm the only one that does. 
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Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2008, 10:36:16 AM »
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If these look different to you perhaps you're not looking at the same thing I am. The Chilean picture spans about 3 hours of Right Ascension while the other spans only 1. For example, in the Chilean one the dark blotch just to the right of center is called "the coal sack", while in the Australian picture you can see only a part of "the coal sack".
The Southern Cross can be seen from latitudes as high as Hawaii, which means that the crux cannot be as close to the southern celestial center as your star maps indicate. Hawaii is facing in an entirely different northern direction in the RE model.

Here's the Southern Cross as seen from the Hawaiian island Mauna Loa: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020425.html

You do realize the star chart you're showing has some significant distortion on it. I have one just like it but for the northern hemisphere and it has grid lines on it so you can adjust for the distortion. If you could see those gridlines you'll see that the southern cross is at approx 60 degrees south declination, about 30 degrees away from the south celestial pole. I've never maintained that the southern cross is "near" the south celestial pole and any RE'er who has is just plain wrong (or they have a whacky sense of what "near" means.)

The southern cross is also big, it's about 6 degrees (12x the size of the full moon) in the longest direction (which points roughly toward the south celestial pole). Since Hawaii (Honolulu at least) is at about 21 degrees North latitude stars with a declination of 69 degrees or less should be visible from Hawaii.

On my star chart the southern cross appears to go from 58 to 64 degrees declination so it should appear 5 degrees above the horizon from Hawaii.

Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2008, 11:22:05 AM »
Mauna Loa is a volcano, not an island.

I stand corrected. Sig reverted.
Its like I looked it up or something before I posted. Apparently I'm the only one that does. 

Not the only one. ;)

Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2008, 11:56:40 AM »
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the southern constellations are consistently visible from all points in the southern hemisphere,

How could the Southern Hemisphere constellations be visible at once from Australia, South America, and Africa at once when those locations don't all experience night simultaneously?

It doesn't mean when it's night that you can't see stars, you ccan see them with strong telescopes.

Re: How do you explain Gyroscopic compasses?
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2008, 12:16:37 PM »
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good question - any two are at least dark enough to observe the stars at any given time, especially in winter when the days are shorter, and flying from one to another by night an observer sees an undisturbed view of the stars, as i've done a number of times. only once to africa i'll admit, but between Australasia and south america, many times.

Sure you have.  ::)

If you have really traveled between those locations, or were actually meteorologist as you've claimed, you would have known that there are such a thing as time zones before claiming that "the southern constellations are consistently visible from all points in the southern hemisphere".

And you can see more stars in montana than in New York city.  Does that mean they don't exist because you don't see them?  Just cause the light blocks them out dosn't mean there not there.  When you go into space...oh wait thats not possible.........um well I give up.


Anywase.  The constilations far enough south would be visiable from all points on the southern hemsiphere if it wasn't for the light of the sun drowning them out.