What am I seeing when I look up?

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What am I seeing when I look up?
« on: August 11, 2008, 11:40:51 AM »
Quote from: faq
Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?"

A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites can't orbit the Earth.  The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites.

I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but this faq entry doesn't explain clearly what the satellites ARE.  You can use a cheap amateur telescope to see details of some of the larger satellites, and at least the presence of smaller ones.

Easily verifiable.  Hop out to your local hobby store and ask for an amateur telescope.  Proceed to scan the sky for any non-star like objects.  You'll find them.  Or look here:  http://www.hobbyspace.com/SatWatching/  If you have money and interest in stargazing (be they gas giants or small ballls of energy), you can ask for better ones with better zooms and whatnot.

You can verify the magnification of said telescope by looking at known terrestrial landmarks with known distances, and use basic trig to figure out the actual size things are.  If you really need a reference point, pick something low to the horizon or get someone to rent an airplane for a little while and fly within the FoV.  For less precise, but equally valid calculations, you can use an object close to the telescope.  ( For calculations, see http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/webscope/activities/pdfs/measureSize.PDF .  Please let me know if they're wrong in their mathematics. )

According to the RE models, there are both Geosynchronous and Asynchronous orbits, so you'll see both moving and stationary satellites.  This is what we can see.

According to FE, you shouldn't be seeing anything up there.  What exactly are hundreds / thousands of amateur stargazers able to see?

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thesmart1

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 12:11:21 PM »
according to these rehab rejects it's probably an illusion or a hologram that the government spends millions of dollars and wastes thousands of hours and valuable resources just to make you think the earth is round.
Common sense is clearly wasted on you people.

Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 12:24:04 PM »
Just so I don't get those wall-of-text naggers, here's the summed up question, without any reasoning in the original post:

What am I seeing when I look at the objects in the sky that are supposedly satellites using a telescope?

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markjo

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 12:32:18 PM »
Actually, it's "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting".  But I suppose that would be a tad long for a user name.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 12:33:29 PM »
We must find the puddding. There lies the ultimate proof of FET.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 12:34:36 PM »
Pudding, yes.  Just watch out for the cake.  I've heard that it can't be trusted.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 12:36:11 PM »
It's not a lie! The cake is real!
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2008, 12:57:43 PM »
That's what they want you to think.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2008, 01:02:53 PM »
Please stop derailing threads you two

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Josef

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 01:08:20 PM »
Just so I don't get those wall-of-text naggers, here's the summed up question, without any reasoning in the original post:

What am I seeing when I look at the objects in the sky that are supposedly satellites using a telescope?

There are something called "stratelites" or similiar. I dont really know what it is though..
Ooompa ooompa

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crazybmanp

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 01:21:32 PM »
Just so I don't get those wall-of-text naggers, here's the summed up question, without any reasoning in the original post:

What am I seeing when I look at the objects in the sky that are supposedly satellites using a telescope?

There are something called "stratelites" or similiar. I dont really know what it is though..
stratelites are things like moons
EX: earth is a stratelite of the sun

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cbarnett97

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 02:00:56 PM »
Pudding, yes.  Just watch out for the cake.  I've heard that it can't be trusted.
remeber one of the reasons we invaded Iraq was because they were trying to get some yellow cake!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 02:53:25 PM by cbarnett97 »
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 02:36:19 PM »
Enough with cake already, you're making me hungry
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bago25

Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 02:55:35 PM »
Well, looking at the posts of the FE enthusiasts, looks like you just proved them all wrong and they have nothing to refute any of your claims.  Congratulations.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 03:15:32 PM »
Quote
What exactly are hundreds / thousands of amateur stargazers able to see?

Pseudolites and Stratellites.

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cbarnett97

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 03:20:59 PM »
Quote
What exactly are hundreds / thousands of amateur stargazers able to see?

Pseudolites and Stratellites.
how do they get those craft going at the velocities needed to orbit the earth with the speed they do? and how do these craft deal with the heat that is generated at those speeds?
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 03:28:22 PM »
Quote
how do they get those craft going at the velocities needed to orbit the earth with the speed they do?

Pseudolites: Ion Drives, and orbit around the same barycenter the sun and moon move around.

Strattellites: Propellers

Quote
and how do these craft deal with the heat that is generated at those speeds?

If a Pesudolite is above the atmosphere and is moving I don't see how it would be creating any heat at all.

And a Strattellite within the atmosphere would probably be geosynchronous over a fixed area.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 04:22:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

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cbarnett97

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2008, 03:36:17 PM »
so it is in outer space? Is that not impossible in the FE model?
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2008, 04:12:21 PM »
There still is no proof that anybody uses stratelites or pseudolites, nor any specifications on various implementations of using them to do anything. And both of the words don't even pass spellcheck

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2008, 04:16:36 PM »
Can't you just add them?  And it's spelled strattelite.

Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2008, 07:31:12 AM »
so it is in outer space? Is that not impossible in the FE model?

Nope.  I'm just going by what the FAQ said: "Since sustained spaceflight is not possible"

I'm guessing the reasoning is this: You couldn't keep something up there for that a long period of time, because once the vehicle leaves the planet earth, it is no longer being accelerated upwards at 1G by the UA -- it must continually maintain it's own upwards acceleration of 1G.  You wouldn't be able to shut off the engines as you would in the RE model, therefore constantly expending (massive amounts of?) energy at all times.

Anyone feel free to jump in and correct my understanding of FE here if it's wrong.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 07:36:54 AM by ProofIsInThePudding »

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Hardhead

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2008, 07:36:10 AM »
Quote
What am I seeing when I look at the objects in the sky that are supposedly satellites using a telescope?

High altitude aircraft designed to fool people like you!

Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2008, 08:09:34 AM »
Quote
What am I seeing when I look at the objects in the sky that are supposedly satellites using a telescope?

High altitude aircraft designed to fool people like you!

I was waiting for someone to post that.  I'm going to refer to your version of the High-Altitude ISS as "ISS-HA", or the International Space Station - High Altitude just for clarity.

Reasons why high altitude aircraft wouldn't work:
1) Telescope Focus.  Have you ever used a camera manual focus before?  If not, try this simple experiment.  Set the focus to 1 meter.  Then try taking a picture of your entire street.  What happens?  Massive blurriness.  Similarly, looking at the ISS-HA 10-20km in the sky that's suppose to be 350km will cause this as well.

2) How could you refuel said high-altitude aircraft without anyone noticing?  I think I'd notice a massive plane flying up to the middle of nowhere.  You're going to need a massive amount of fuel to maintain the speed the ISS-HA is moving at (See point #4). You'd also be able to look out the window of any random airplane and see that the ISS-HA's much, much larger than it should be if it were in orbit.

3) Triangulation.  Given enough observational points, you are able to calculate the rough distance.  So if 5-10 people go out and spend 50 bucks each, you could arguably verify this.

4) At minimum, the ISS-HA must be moving at minimum 27,700 kilometers per hour.  Have you ever noticed how fast the terrain in the horizon is moving when you look out the side of a moving vehicle?  It's not very fast compared to the objects / terrain closer to you.  Similarly, for the ISS-HA to have the ILLUSION that it's 350km high @ 27,700 KPH when it's really only 50km up, you have to be moving that much faster.  The current top speed of any aircraft, I believe, is the NASA X-43 (Unmanned) at Mach 9.8, which is about 12,000 KPH.

That's a pretty sturdy non-aerodynamic structure to be moving at that clip.

P.S. For you knitpickers, I know that the speed I noted of the ISS-HA varies from (1) to (4).  Doesn't really matter what the exact number is.  Staying within the atmosphere means 35km-50km, a factor of 7-10x closer than it should really be, so a +/- of 30 km really doesn't make too much of a difference.

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2008, 09:50:11 AM »
Why do we not hear a jet roar or sonic boom when they pass overhead? 

If the object is only 50km up, why does it appear to be almost directly overhead in my town, and also directly overhead in the town 30 miles away in a direction perpendicular to it's flight at the same time?  and in every other town and village in the region? 
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2008, 10:21:01 AM »
Why do we not hear a jet roar or sonic boom when they pass overhead?

Ever seen the trails of jets in the sky? Notice that when they're at that altitude, you don't really hear them? And a sonic boom assumes supersonic speed.


I'm not really sure I agree with him, I'm just saying these points don't really make sense.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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lolz at trollz

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2008, 10:57:26 AM »
Why do we not hear a jet roar or sonic boom when they pass overhead?

Ever seen the trails of jets in the sky? Notice that when they're at that altitude, you don't really hear them? And a sonic boom assumes supersonic speed.


I'm not really sure I agree with him, I'm just saying these points don't really make sense.

if it's traveling at mach 9 it is supersonic, and a passenger jet at high altitude will appear to be moving across the sky very slowly, whereas the ISS appears to be moving very fast.  The only jets I have seen move from horizon to horizon as quicky as the ISS were military jets, flying at lover altitude, and they are extremely noisy. 

Also, what sort of jet would leave no vapour trail?  Also, people have photographed the ISS (I'm talking about regular folks, amateur astronomers) it it looks like hte ISS, not like a jet plane.  The ISS is not a very aerodynamic shape.



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Run run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me cos I'm in the lollipop forest and you can't get there!

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2008, 10:59:46 AM »
Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with him, I'm just saying that the points you raise aern;t really valid. I'm not sure you can conclusively prove it's not a jet based on sound.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 11:39:28 AM »
Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with him, I'm just saying that the points you raise aren't really valid. I'm not sure you can conclusively prove it's not a jet based on sound.

Even at cruising altitude sonic jets produce shockwaves that can be felt on hte ground.  This was shown during development of Concorde where it was flown at cruising altitude over the UK and produced shockwaves powerful enough to shatter windows on the ground.

If hte Jet was higher, eg the suggested 50 km, then maybe hte sound would not be heard, but it would not appear fast enough.  It would need to be at a lover altitude.  the x-43 is not a viable aircraft, it has only flown for 10 seconds and then crashed.  It could fly at the correct speed to emulate the ISS at 5o km, but it can't fly at 50km or for 88 seconds.  The SR-71 can fly at mach 3 but would need to be at a third the height, and so it's sonic boom would be heard.  Sonic booms can be heard from as far up as 21 km. 

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Video proof that the Earth is flat!

Run run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me cos I'm in the lollipop forest and you can't get there!

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2008, 11:45:26 AM »
But can you prove all this, as opposed to just saying it? I mean, can you conclusively show that no sunb-sonic jet cul create the appereance of the ISS?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Re: What am I seeing when I look up?
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2008, 12:25:30 PM »
At subsonic speed, to arcive the aparent speed it would need to travel under 14km, the shape would be easily discernible even to sight, the vapour trail would be easily visible, the paralax would be so great it would not appear at a consistant enough angle across even a medium sized town, let alone any neighbouring towns. 

at 14 km, the difference in angle between 2 points only 5 km apart would be 20 degrees, at 10 km it would be 30 degrees, this would only be able to fool a close together group of observers surrounded by lots of area with no one observing. 

An identical appearance and position in the sky to to me and to people 40km away and thousands of other observers in the region could not have been done by a single aircraft at 14 km, and even at 50 km it would appear at 60 degrees different position in the sky, so no, it could not have been done by any aircraft. 
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Video proof that the Earth is flat!

Run run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me cos I'm in the lollipop forest and you can't get there!