Sunken ship question - again

I couldnt find a fitting thread so Ill start a new one. (I didnt look too hard)

I want to know:
Why is the "sunken ship" phenomena? Probably FE'ers have explained this many times, and its probably written somewhere but Im to lazy, and also it relates with the rest of the questions.
Why doesnt the ship either: First become a small dot, so small you cant see it even with binoculars, then perhaps start to dissapear from the hull and up. Or: On a clear day first dissapear gradually and evenly over the ship due to atmospheric refraction, as it does on a foggy day?

If I know this, I can myself start arguing for FE for friends and colleuges. Although I might be locked away in asylum.

the answer, my friend, is simple.  the earth is round

The sinking ship effect happens because the atmosphere is a gradient.

The sinking ship effect happens because the atmosphere is a gradient.

I know it is gradient. But is the atmospheric difference that great between the hull and the masts?
Why is the ship/mountain/tower/whatever not dissapearing evenly from the bottom and up?

I want another explanation..

And I want a motorbike.

I know it is gradient. But is the atmospheric difference that great between the hull and the masts?

Depends on the size of the ship I suppose. While it's accepted common knowledge that all things at sea would behave with this phenomena, I'm not sure any data exists on how pronounced the effect is or isn't based on the size of the ship.

Why is the ship/mountain/tower/whateber not dissapearing evenly from the bottom and up?

Because the atmosphere is a gradient. Once it reaches a certain distance, the compounding effect at the most dense point will blur the object until a satisfactory vanishing point occurs. As such, because of the gradient, the bottom will always seem to disappear first.

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 06:19:54 AM

I know it is gradient. But is the atmospheric difference that great between the hull and the masts?

Depends on the size of the ship I suppose. While it's accepted common knowledge that all things at sea would behave with this phenomena, I'm not sure any data exists on how pronounced the effect is or isn't based on the size of the ship.

I dont know how much boating you have been doing but there is two different things. One is the dissapearing of stuff "over the edge of horizon". And the other is the floating effect, which can if its strong enough make the impression that things far away floats in air, ABOVE the horizon.

My concern is that perhaps the "restoring of the half-sunken ship" with telescope was because of the second phenomena.

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 06:19:54 AM

Why is the ship/mountain/tower/whateber not dissapearing evenly from the bottom and up?

Because the atmosphere is a gradient. Once it reaches a certain distance, the compounding effect at the most dense point will blur the object until a satisfactory vanishing point occurs. As such, because of the gradient, the bottom will always seem to disappear first.

I think you missunderstood me. I wasnt questioning the direction how it dissapears. I questioned why it doesnt dissapear evenly. Like a gradient.

Also:
Why doesnt the sea itself dissapear into a foggy blur? 

It may do, but the sea is generally the same colour of the sky. I've never seen a clear horizon at sea.

It may do, but the sea is generally the same colour of the sky. I've never seen a clear horizon at sea.

I have. Many times.
Have you ever been to sea at all?
You know that there is many times when the sea and the sky doesnt have the same color? Right?

No, I'm British. It's always all gray and foggy. Could you post an image for me to study?

I dont know how much boating you have been doing but there is two different things. One is the dissapearing of stuff "over the edge of horizon". And the other is the floating effect, which can if its strong enough make the impression that things far away floats in air, ABOVE the horizon.

My concern is that perhaps the "restoring of the half-sunken ship" with telescope was because of the second phenomena.

Will depend on the case. Magnification in good conditions theoretically should result in restoring the full view of the ship. Probabilistically and depending on your location, ideal conditions at sea would be hard to come. And the variability of the density, refraction and such will all have an effect on your success. Unfortunately for those, magnification will not pierce the compounded atmosphere.

I think you missunderstood me. I wasnt questioning the direction how it dissapears. I questioned why it doesnt dissapear evenly. Like a gradient.

Evenly? A gradient is not even.

Also:
Why doesnt the sea itself dissapear into a foggy blur? 

You wouldn't notice because the sea is parallel to your line of sight, and level. Perhaps, if it were possible to have the sea curved upwards, it might be possible to discover the vanishing point, but this is not the case.

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 06:36:18 AM

I think you missunderstood me. I wasnt questioning the direction how it dissapears. I questioned why it doesnt dissapear evenly. Like a gradient.

Evenly? A gradient is not even.

Its layered?

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 06:39:53 AM

Also:
Why doesnt the sea itself dissapear into a foggy blur? 

You wouldn't notice because the sea is parallel to your line of sight, and level. Perhaps, if it were possible to have the sea curved upwards, it might be possible to discover the vanishing point, but this is not the case.

Forgot, earth is flat..
Still, it would dissapear gradually into a blur. Just like its doing some days when its not clear.

Is it appropiate to bring in the "Sunken sun" example?

Its layered?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradient

Forgot, earth is flat..

Shape of the Earth doesn't matter here.

Still, it would dissapear into a blur. Just like its doing some days when its not clear.

And it does, when it's not clear. And when it is clear, you have a nice defined horizon line in the distance.

No, I'm British. It's always all gray and foggy. Could you post an image for me to study?

yeah right here

enough contrast  for ya? this is the weather down under

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 07:12:58 AM

Its layered?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradient

I cant find the right words.. *Must I draw a picture?*

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 07:12:58 AM

Forgot, earth is flat..

Shape of the Earth doesn't matter here.

Then Im not looking paralell to the surface. Im on a boat, so there is an angle when looking at the horizon. I can also be higher up. Even more angle. The sea still doesnt dissapear into blur, it just ends.

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 07:12:58 AM

Still, it would dissapear into a blur. Just like its doing some days when its not clear.

And it does, when it's not clear. And when it is clear, you have a nice defined horizon line in the distance.

We see the same things.

No, I'm British. It's always all gray and foggy. Could you post an image for me to study?

Thats really funny!! 
Instant classic.

Ship-eating whales

I cant find the right words.. *Must I draw a picture?*

If you wouldn't mind.

Then Im not looking paralell to the surface. Im on a boat, so there is an angle when looking at the horizon. I can also be higher up. Even more angle. The sea still doesnt dissapear into blur, it just ends.

Standing on a boat will not provide enough of an angle to see a blur; this is also dependent on the conditions. You're not guaranteed no matter what you do.

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 06:36:18 AM

I think you missunderstood me. I wasnt questioning the direction how it dissapears. I questioned why it doesnt dissapear evenly. Like a gradient.

Evenly? A gradient is not even.

Im back! Had to do some workstuff, eat, feeding the baby and so on.. Actually my wife wonders what crazy poinless forum I spend too much time on already.

The word I was looking for is Gradually. Like gradually from the bottom up. When I first wrote evenly (not a real word right? hehe) I meant evenly dissapearing starting from the bottom and up.

Like in photoshop when adding a gradient as a opacity map on something.

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 07:34:06 AM

I cant find the right words.. *Must I draw a picture?*

If you wouldn't mind.

Its bedtime. Hopefully you understand the above text.. Otherwise I will se when I can find time. This forum is starting to interfere badly with my "real life".

Quote from: Josef on August 11, 2008, 07:12:58 AM

Then Im not looking paralell to the surface. Im on a boat, so there is an angle when looking at the horizon. I can also be higher up. Even more angle. The sea still doesnt dissapear into blur, it just ends.

Standing on a boat will not provide enough of an angle to see a blur; this is also dependent on the conditions. You're not guaranteed no matter what you do.

I still dont understand why there wouldnt be a blur on the water at the horizon when it is a blur on the bottom on the ship. They are basicaly at the same level. With blur I mean the dissapearence caused by atmospheric density. All in FE.

Thank you for being patient divito.